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Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please.

Posted By: Tikka

Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/19/18 12:05 PM

Hi
I have a 2008 Grand Cherokee with the Merc OM642 Diesel unit in it. I have no DPF fitted, Jeep only fitted them on new model in UK I believe.
My oil spec is 229.51.Will I be ok using any Oil that is Merc approved to 229.51 or is it not as simple as that?
I am looking for ultimate Engine and Turbo protection rather then fuel economy.

What are the ingredients in the oil I should be looking for? Indeed are all 229.51 oils made to the same 'recipe'?

Any suggestions on viscosity range? My handbook calls for a 5w-30. The UK has a relatively moderate climate.

Forgive me if any of my questions are a little naÔve but I am just learning and am finding the subject very interesting.

Many thanks.
Tikka.
Posted By: Danno

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/19/18 12:23 PM

229.51 has been superseded by 229.52.
Yes any oil with 229.52 certifications will be fine.
Also, 5W-30 would be fine for England.
I had over a hundred OM642s non-DPF in my Sprinter fleet. As well, I recommend only using OE MB oil filters for the engine.
Friend of mine had the exact same JGC as you have. Traded it in as local Jeep dealer was clueless on how to maintain the truck.
Posted By: zeng

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/19/18 12:37 PM

Any MB 229.51 would do, and it's more likely to be an xW40 in my country.
Posted By: Tikka

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/19/18 12:57 PM

Hi Danno
Thanks for helping.
I noticed the 229.52 spec but I wonder when the specs move on for different engines whether they start removing ingredients that may be good for my older engine. Maybe I am over thinking this?

Yes I will only use genuine filters. I read the long thread about these filters on the oil filter section of the forum.

At the moment my Jeep is getting PETRONAS Syntium 5w-30 as fitted by Jeep Dealer.

Diesel Jeeps are by far the most common in UK. Petro ones are rare due to our very high taxes on fuel.
Posted By: Tikka

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/19/18 12:59 PM

Hi Zeng
Thanks for you help.
I am guessing you guys use a 40 weight due to your hot climate?
Posted By: Danno

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/19/18 02:14 PM

229.52 covers 229.51 spec so you're good to use it.
I know MB extended OCI with the launch of 229.52, so you shouldn't have worries.
Posted By: 1JZ_E46

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/19/18 03:53 PM

I believe 229.52 is identical to 229.51, with the exception of a more stringent fuel economy test. I would stick with 229.51. More options.
Posted By: JAG

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/19/18 08:22 PM

MB 229.52 is more stringent than 229.51 in areas of oxidative thickening and fuel economy, and is otherwise the same, according to Lubrizol. Mobil 1 0W-30 ESP meets MB 229.52.
https://online.lubrizol.com/relperftool/pc.html
Posted By: CleverUserName

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/19/18 10:59 PM

If youíre looking for the ultimate in engine and turbo protection, then a Low-Mid SAPS oil isnít the best choice. I think you probably want the additional AW additives an E7 or E9 synthetic Diesel engine oil. E7 or E9 in 5w30 or 5w40 would be the lube for you.
Posted By: DallasTexas

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/19/18 11:44 PM

I have a OM648 CDI with DPF. To protect the DPF I use MB 229.31 or MB 229.51 which is usually Mobil Delvac 1 ESP. I tend to worry more about DPF.
Posted By: edyvw

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/20/18 07:53 AM

Originally Posted By: DallasTexas
I have a OM648 CDI with DPF. To protect the DPF I use MB 229.31 or MB 229.51 which is usually Mobil Delvac 1 ESP. I tend to worry more about DPF.

Since when Mobil1 Delvac ESP carries MB 229.31 or .51?
Posted By: zeng

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/20/18 09:00 AM

Originally Posted By: Tikka
I am guessing you guys use a 40 weight due to your hot climate?

Yes, I'd access to Total Quartz Ineo MC3 5W40 MB 229.51 C3.
Posted By: Tikka

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/20/18 10:12 AM

Originally Posted By: zeng
Originally Posted By: Tikka
I am guessing you guys use a 40 weight due to your hot climate?

Yes, I'd access to Total Quartz Ineo MC3 5W40 MB 229.51 C3.


Not PETRONAS I see. Any particular reason as I presume it is readily available?
Posted By: Tikka

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/20/18 10:19 AM

Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
If youíre looking for the ultimate in engine and turbo protection, then a Low-Mid SAPS oil isnít the best choice. I think you probably want the additional AW additives an E7 or E9 synthetic Diesel engine oil. E7 or E9 in 5w30 or 5w40 would be the lube for you.


Hi
Would a 228.51 spec suit my needs better? If I am reading things correctly 228.51 seems to be a diesel specific spec.
According to Mercedes this spec is ok on the om642 without dpf.
https://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/d/d/en/Spec_223_2.pdf
They seem to be a more Truck and commercial vehicle oil. Although still low saps.
Posted By: Tikka

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/20/18 10:24 AM

Originally Posted By: DallasTexas
I have a OM648 CDI with DPF. To protect the DPF I use MB 229.31 or MB 229.51 which is usually Mobil Delvac 1 ESP. I tend to worry more about DPF.


Hi
I do not have dpf so I hope I have a little more wriggle room with lube choice
Posted By: CleverUserName

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/20/18 11:45 AM

Originally Posted By: Tikka
Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
If youíre looking for the ultimate in engine and turbo protection, then a Low-Mid SAPS oil isnít the best choice. I think you probably want the additional AW additives an E7 or E9 synthetic Diesel engine oil. E7 or E9 in 5w30 or 5w40 would be the lube for you.


Hi
Would a 228.51 spec suit my needs better? If I am reading things correctly 228.51 seems to be a diesel specific spec.
According to Mercedes this spec is ok on the om642 without dpf.
https://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/d/d/en/Spec_223_2.pdf
They seem to be a more Truck and commercial vehicle oil. Although still low saps.


Hi,

Exactly as I said. If you want the "ultimate in engine and turbo protection", you're not going to get that in a low saps oil. Period. ACEA E7 or E9, CJ-4 or CK-4 with a healthy dose of P, Moly and Boron mixed with some magnesium and calcium. Diesels need > 3.5 HTHS minimum. The traditional AW additives still work best. 5w30 or 5w40 based on operational temperatures.
Posted By: Tikka

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/20/18 12:53 PM

Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Originally Posted By: Tikka
Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
If youíre looking for the ultimate in engine and turbo protection, then a Low-Mid SAPS oil isnít the best choice. I think you probably want the additional AW additives an E7 or E9 synthetic Diesel engine oil. E7 or E9 in 5w30 or 5w40 would be the lube for you.


Hi
Would a 228.51 spec suit my needs better? If I am reading things correctly 228.51 seems to be a diesel specific spec.
According to Mercedes this spec is ok on the om642 without dpf.
https://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/d/d/en/Spec_223_2.pdf
They seem to be a more Truck and commercial vehicle oil. Although still low saps.


Hi,

Exactly as I said. If you want the "ultimate in engine and turbo protection", you're not going to get that in a low saps oil. Period. ACEA E7 or E9, CJ-4 or CK-4 with a healthy dose of P, Moly and Boron mixed with some magnesium and calcium. Diesels need > 3.5 HTHS minimum. The traditional AW additives still work best. 5w30 or 5w40 based on operational temperatures.


Hi
Thanks for helping.
Remember I am new to this so please be patient with me. The numbers and abreviations mean little at the moment.
I looked at E7 and E9 in my viscosity range and they came back as low saps. Something like a Mobil delvac 1.
What is an oil you would use in this engine?
Posted By: Popsy

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/20/18 01:26 PM

E7 and E9 are considered as low SAPS for HDEO oil, that is, normal/high SAPS for PCMO oils, around 1% SAPS.

But...if there is no DPF, why not simply a xW40 MB 229.5 oil, like Castrol 0W40, Total Quartz 9000 Energy, Petronas Syntium 7000 0W40, etc ? Iím sure you can get them easily at Opioils or probably in retail directly.

HDEO, if you can find Mobil Delvac 5W40, otherwise youíll find 5W30 and 10W40...this not America laugh
Iíve pretty much given up on them for availability reasons, to be honest. Total Rubia TIR 9900 FE 5W30 is an excellent oil, if you can find it.
Posted By: CleverUserName

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/20/18 01:43 PM

Ravenol NDT 5w40. ACEA E7/E9 and CJ-4. Can you find this in England?

http://www.ravenol.de/en/products/usage/d/Product/show/p/ravenol-ndt-nord-duty-truck-sae-5w-40.html
Posted By: edyvw

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/21/18 06:08 AM

Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Originally Posted By: Tikka
Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
If youíre looking for the ultimate in engine and turbo protection, then a Low-Mid SAPS oil isnít the best choice. I think you probably want the additional AW additives an E7 or E9 synthetic Diesel engine oil. E7 or E9 in 5w30 or 5w40 would be the lube for you.


Hi
Would a 228.51 spec suit my needs better? If I am reading things correctly 228.51 seems to be a diesel specific spec.
According to Mercedes this spec is ok on the om642 without dpf.
https://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/d/d/en/Spec_223_2.pdf
They seem to be a more Truck and commercial vehicle oil. Although still low saps.


Hi,

Exactly as I said. If you want the "ultimate in engine and turbo protection", you're not going to get that in a low saps oil. Period. ACEA E7 or E9, CJ-4 or CK-4 with a healthy dose of P, Moly and Boron mixed with some magnesium and calcium. Diesels need > 3.5 HTHS minimum. The traditional AW additives still work best. 5w30 or 5w40 based on operational temperatures.

I still stay amazed with this kind of ignorance.
Posted By: CleverUserName

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/21/18 08:55 AM

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Originally Posted By: Tikka
Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
If youíre looking for the ultimate in engine and turbo protection, then a Low-Mid SAPS oil isnít the best choice. I think you probably want the additional AW additives an E7 or E9 synthetic Diesel engine oil. E7 or E9 in 5w30 or 5w40 would be the lube for you.


Hi
Would a 228.51 spec suit my needs better? If I am reading things correctly 228.51 seems to be a diesel specific spec.
According to Mercedes this spec is ok on the om642 without dpf.
https://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/d/d/en/Spec_223_2.pdf
They seem to be a more Truck and commercial vehicle oil. Although still low saps.


Hi,

Exactly as I said. If you want the "ultimate in engine and turbo protection", you're not going to get that in a low saps oil. Period. ACEA E7 or E9, CJ-4 or CK-4 with a healthy dose of P, Moly and Boron mixed with some magnesium and calcium. Diesels need > 3.5 HTHS minimum. The traditional AW additives still work best. 5w30 or 5w40 based on operational temperatures.

I still stay amazed with this kind of ignorance.


Yep, ignorance. Considering how expensive oil additives are these days, you'd think that if they could reduce their concentration by 25-40% everyone would be doing it. I guess that's why we see so many OTR semis, Farm equipment and light duty trucks all using low saps oils. These automotive manufacturers must all be ignorant too, since they make the specifications. Maybe they should hire you as a tribology consultant? Have you thought about starting a new career?
Posted By: zeng

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/21/18 11:25 AM

Originally Posted By: Tikka
Originally Posted By: zeng
Originally Posted By: Tikka
I am guessing you guys use a 40 weight due to your hot climate?

Yes, I'd access to Total Quartz Ineo MC3 5W40 MB 229.51 C3.


Not PETRONAS I see. Any particular reason as I presume it is readily available?


Yes ,in relation to Quartz MC3 Ineo 5W40 , Petronas MB 229.31 C3 is pricier but weaker spec though readily available.
Posted By: edyvw

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/21/18 07:59 PM

Quote:
Yep, ignorance. Considering how expensive oil additives are these days, you'd think that if they could reduce their concentration by 25-40% everyone would be doing it. I guess that's why we see so many OTR semis, Farm equipment and light duty trucks all using low saps oils. These automotive manufacturers must all be ignorant too, since they make the specifications. Maybe they should hire you as a tribology consultant? Have you thought about starting a new career?

I guess all those diesels in Europe that run on C3 oils and making hundreds of thousands of miles have fake odometers.
My brothers BMW 525d E61 with M57 engine made some 290k (miles) on C3 oil. Was still capable of doing 145mph, and not using drop of oil.
He has now 20 diesels that he is running for his business purposes and all are above 200k (miles) including several MB Sprinters and Viano's. All run on C3 oils, see much higher speeds then any diesel will see in the U.S. and more demanding urban driving.
But I know you know better then BMW or MB engineers. This [censored] about Low-SAPS oil comes every now and then on BITOG> Same like: Use Redline, ZDDP or your engine and your family will die in miserable death.
Posted By: 1JZ_E46

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/21/18 08:19 PM

Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Yep, ignorance. Considering how expensive oil additives are these days, you'd think that if they could reduce their concentration by 25-40% everyone would be doing it. I guess that's why we see so many OTR semis, Farm equipment and light duty trucks all using low saps oils. These automotive manufacturers must all be ignorant too, since they make the specifications. Maybe they should hire you as a tribology consultant? Have you thought about starting a new career?


Well it's a good thing the OP isn't pushing a semi or a tractor as a daily driver. SAPS level affects oil longevity (acid neutralizing ability) far more than boundary-layer surface wear. Based on years of looking at the UOA section, low/mid/high SAPS has zero correlation with engine wear.
Posted By: CleverUserName

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/22/18 08:12 AM

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Quote:
Yep, ignorance. Considering how expensive oil additives are these days, you'd think that if they could reduce their concentration by 25-40% everyone would be doing it. I guess that's why we see so many OTR semis, Farm equipment and light duty trucks all using low saps oils. These automotive manufacturers must all be ignorant too, since they make the specifications. Maybe they should hire you as a tribology consultant? Have you thought about starting a new career?

I guess all those diesels in Europe that run on C3 oils and making hundreds of thousands of miles have fake odometers.
My brothers BMW 525d E61 with M57 engine made some 290k (miles) on C3 oil. Was still capable of doing 145mph, and not using drop of oil.
He has now 20 diesels that he is running for his business purposes and all are above 200k (miles) including several MB Sprinters and Viano's. All run on C3 oils, see much higher speeds then any diesel will see in the U.S. and more demanding urban driving.
But I know you know better then BMW or MB engineers. This [censored] about Low-SAPS oil comes every now and then on BITOG> Same like: Use Redline, ZDDP or your engine and your family will die in miserable death.


I would not use Redline anything in a diesel. Although they make a good product, RL doesn't have any specific formula designed for oil burners. There are better options out there...

The OP asked for the "Ultimate in Engine and Turbo protection rather then fuel economy." Usually that comes from an HDEO, especially when diesels are involved. I'd love to run a 10K and 8K OCI followed with a UOA in my TDI w/ Delvac ESP 5w40. Then I could compare it to the high wear metals seen with a low saps 507 oil in this car. However, I am going to do the buyback this summer so I won't have the opportunity to prove you wrong. How sweet that would have been...

When you prepare your resume for your new career as a triblolgy consultant, make sure to include all your anecdotal and unsubtantiated claims about your brother's "fleet" as the basis for your expertise.
Posted By: CleverUserName

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/22/18 08:30 AM

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Yep, ignorance. Considering how expensive oil additives are these days, you'd think that if they could reduce their concentration by 25-40% everyone would be doing it. I guess that's why we see so many OTR semis, Farm equipment and light duty trucks all using low saps oils. These automotive manufacturers must all be ignorant too, since they make the specifications. Maybe they should hire you as a tribology consultant? Have you thought about starting a new career?


Well it's a good thing the OP isn't pushing a semi or a tractor as a daily driver. SAPS level affects oil longevity (acid neutralizing ability) far more than boundary-layer surface wear. Based on years of looking at the UOA section, low/mid/high SAPS has zero correlation with engine wear.


Not just tractors. Don't forget all the motorcycles that use HDEOs in there crankcases. I guess they're using an HDEO for the acid neutrizing ablity and not the add pack?

And don't forget all the motoring enthusiasts using HDEOs in the sports cars. Delvac synthetic engine and gear oil was very popular with Porsche owners not to long ago. I guess that was also due to the acid neutralizing ability of an HDEO as well? Or maybe not?

Or maybe light duty trucks like the Ecodiesel. FCA realized there was something missing in the low-saps C3 oil originally spec'd for the VM L630, after many owners had oil related engine failures. I guess that missing factor was also the acid neutralizing ability of the CJ-4 spec oil that replaced it? Or was it something else?


Posted By: 1JZ_E46

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/22/18 01:41 PM

Weíll just have to agree to disagree here.
Posted By: Tikka

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/22/18 04:18 PM

Hi Gents
I really appreciate the opinions. I admit to being ignorant about motor oils hence I am here to learn if I can smile

Can I ask why they make Oils specifically for truck use and then ones for cars like my mb229.51? Surely a turbo diesel in a truck has much the same needs as a turbo diesel in an suv?
I also noted that the heavy duty truck oils are low saps now as they are fitted with dpf.

I had never heard of Ravenol but a google shoes it is available mail order.
Posted By: CleverUserName

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/22/18 08:34 PM

Like the other guy said, Low saps in a truck oil is 1% the same as high saps in an oil designed for passenger vehicles at 1%.

Heavy Duty Truck oils like ACEA E7/ E9 and CJ-4 typically have a higher dose of Anti-Wear and dispersants additives than car oils. This is why HD oils are popular with motorcycles and sports cars as they offer a high level of performance and are affordable.
Posted By: edyvw

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/23/18 06:46 AM

Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Quote:
Yep, ignorance. Considering how expensive oil additives are these days, you'd think that if they could reduce their concentration by 25-40% everyone would be doing it. I guess that's why we see so many OTR semis, Farm equipment and light duty trucks all using low saps oils. These automotive manufacturers must all be ignorant too, since they make the specifications. Maybe they should hire you as a tribology consultant? Have you thought about starting a new career?

I guess all those diesels in Europe that run on C3 oils and making hundreds of thousands of miles have fake odometers.
My brothers BMW 525d E61 with M57 engine made some 290k (miles) on C3 oil. Was still capable of doing 145mph, and not using drop of oil.
He has now 20 diesels that he is running for his business purposes and all are above 200k (miles) including several MB Sprinters and Viano's. All run on C3 oils, see much higher speeds then any diesel will see in the U.S. and more demanding urban driving.
But I know you know better then BMW or MB engineers. This [censored] about Low-SAPS oil comes every now and then on BITOG> Same like: Use Redline, ZDDP or your engine and your family will die in miserable death.


I would not use Redline anything in a diesel. Although they make a good product, RL doesn't have any specific formula designed for oil burners. There are better options out there...

The OP asked for the "Ultimate in Engine and Turbo protection rather then fuel economy." Usually that comes from an HDEO, especially when diesels are involved. I'd love to run a 10K and 8K OCI followed with a UOA in my TDI w/ Delvac ESP 5w40. Then I could compare it to the high wear metals seen with a low saps 507 oil in this car. However, I am going to do the buyback this summer so I won't have the opportunity to prove you wrong. How sweet that would have been...

When you prepare your resume for your new career as a triblolgy consultant, make sure to include all your anecdotal and unsubtantiated claims about your brother's "fleet" as the basis for your expertise.


I did my time in oil company on development of oils, so no need to prepare CV's. I enjoy my life as guy who took his [censored] to another level, and has time to read comical posts like yours and still get paid for it.
Redline does make diesel specific engine oils, some look good (those not approved) and some look mediocre (those that are approved).
I worked on development of VW504.00/507.00 oil. I actually have seen numerous UOA with data you will never see from Blackstone, on 1.2TDI, 1.9TDI and 2.0TDI engines. I have also seen those engines disassembled after testing to develop that oil. Based on your posts here, I would say ignorance is actually superlative for you.
Your wear numbers does not mean anything. What that means for you or OP? Does that mean engine will die at 150k? 200k? 300k? Does that mean some components are going to fail? What is bang for a buck there considering premature SCR/DPF failure due to higher SAPS? If higher SAPS is not an issue, why not then using full SAPS? Why not using Castrol 0W40 if "ultimate protection" is what is needed? Or maybe Motul V?
Posted By: edyvw

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/23/18 06:53 AM

Originally Posted By: Tikka
Hi Gents
I really appreciate the opinions. I admit to being ignorant about motor oils hence I am here to learn if I can smile

Can I ask why they make Oils specifically for truck use and then ones for cars like my mb229.51? Surely a turbo diesel in a truck has much the same needs as a turbo diesel in an suv?
I also noted that the heavy duty truck oils are low saps now as they are fitted with dpf.

I had never heard of Ravenol but a google shoes it is available mail order.

Use Mobil1 5W30 ESP for MB229.51 requirements.
Engine in SUV has different needs from diesel engines in trucks. You are here comparing relatively small displacement engines in SUV's to engines with big displacement, big oil reservoirs and DPF/SCR system that is much more flexible then in SUV's or generally personal vehicles. It is not same to fit SCR/DPF system in Scania or DAF and in BMW X5.
Each applications has its particular needs and requirements. Use what your vehicle manufacturer recommends. They destroyed enough of engines to figure out what that engine needs, regardless that some people here think they now best just because they discovered that they can send UO sample in mail.
Posted By: 1JZ_E46

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/23/18 02:48 PM

Originally Posted By: edyvw
I did my time in oil company on development of oils, so no need to prepare CV's. I enjoy my life as guy who took his [censored] to another level, and has time to read comical posts like yours and still get paid for it.
Redline does make diesel specific engine oils, some look good (those not approved) and some look mediocre (those that are approved).
I worked on development of VW504.00/507.00 oil. I actually have seen numerous UOA with data you will never see from Blackstone, on 1.2TDI, 1.9TDI and 2.0TDI engines. I have also seen those engines disassembled after testing to develop that oil. Based on your posts here, I would say ignorance is actually superlative for you.
Your wear numbers does not mean anything. What that means for you or OP? Does that mean engine will die at 150k? 200k? 300k? Does that mean some components are going to fail? What is bang for a buck there considering premature SCR/DPF failure due to higher SAPS? If higher SAPS is not an issue, why not then using full SAPS? Why not using Castrol 0W40 if "ultimate protection" is what is needed? Or maybe Motul V?


Well said. How does 504/507 (C30) compare to 229.5/1? Iíve read it is very stringent on piston deposits, and less on other areas.
Posted By: edyvw

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/24/18 05:27 AM

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted By: edyvw
I did my time in oil company on development of oils, so no need to prepare CV's. I enjoy my life as guy who took his [censored] to another level, and has time to read comical posts like yours and still get paid for it.
Redline does make diesel specific engine oils, some look good (those not approved) and some look mediocre (those that are approved).
I worked on development of VW504.00/507.00 oil. I actually have seen numerous UOA with data you will never see from Blackstone, on 1.2TDI, 1.9TDI and 2.0TDI engines. I have also seen those engines disassembled after testing to develop that oil. Based on your posts here, I would say ignorance is actually superlative for you.
Your wear numbers does not mean anything. What that means for you or OP? Does that mean engine will die at 150k? 200k? 300k? Does that mean some components are going to fail? What is bang for a buck there considering premature SCR/DPF failure due to higher SAPS? If higher SAPS is not an issue, why not then using full SAPS? Why not using Castrol 0W40 if "ultimate protection" is what is needed? Or maybe Motul V?


Well said. How does 504/507 (C30) compare to 229.5/1? Iíve read it is very stringent on piston deposits, and less on other areas.

VW504.00/507.00 is only 0//5W30 oils and among those oils has most stringent wear requirements. However, it allows SAPS to be very high, all the way to 1.5. Still, it is not possible to achieve DPF protection with such high SAPS, so companies never go above 0.8 in VW504.00/507.00. There is no doubt that low SAPS oils are using less additives, but generally they are because of very stringent requirements "cooked" with very sophisticated additives and high quality base oils. Oil company that I worked for as one of field test guys could cook high SAPS oil very cheaply. Low-SAPS oil was very expensive to develop and it is more expensive to make. We for example drove VW Golf V 1.9 TDI and 2.0TDI and Polo 1.2TDI for 400k km's before dissembling engines. Some tests included 20.000km with no turning off engine in open road environment, 20,000km in mixed and 20,000km in strictly urban driving. We would just recycle drivers constantly. Then stop/go traffic, very short turn off/turn on runs, extremely cold starts, or extremely hot starts etc, etc. After 400k km, engines and cars would be inspected for wear and tear. Then oil was sent to VW for approval.
Commercial type of oils like Rotella T6, Delvac, Delo etc. are not on par in sophistication with oils such as VW504.00/507.00 etc. Commercial use has different demands and oil companies in general have easier times to meet those demands since we are talking about different engines, different emission schedules, larger DPF/SCR systems that are easier to fit into big equipment vehicles. Those commercial vehicles usually have very large oil sumps, block heaters etc. Oil companies cannot develop expensive oil, especially on European market for such vehicles because it cuts into profit. Here oil is cheap, in Europe liter of VW504.00/507.00 is some $15-20. It hits profit if you are running let's say 200-300 trucks. That is why trucks are on different emission schedule and they could use higher SAPS oils, higher NOACK oils etc. since engines are more rudimentary.
As for MB229.5/1 I believe deposit wise that is most stringent spec. I think LL-04 is most stringent oxidation wise. That is why it is always good to buy oil that meets all those specs.
But to think how some UOA with some wear numbers will suddenly prove how some other non-approved oil is better is ridiculous. Manufacturers before sending engine on the market do everything possible to find weakness to that engine and then they constantly tests engines during sale to see are there any weak spots that are missed during initial testing. On top of that, data from service departments, failed engines etc. are always inspected and some practices when it comes to maintenance are updated (like for example FCA V6 diesel in JEEP and RAM). Those companies which neglect all that end up like Chrysler I guess.
Posted By: Tikka

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/24/18 04:26 PM

Hi
Thank you for a fascinating insight into how things work.

You point out that a lot of testing goes in to developing engines. It seems as a layman that Mercedes developers dropped the ball with the om642. Things like oil cooler seals, oil dripping on swirl motor, oil vapour from the crankcase ventilation gumming up the inlet manifolds. Should these relatively simple problems be picked up and acted upon if testing is really so stringent?

I do a lot of stop start driving. Would you half the oil change interval recommended by Jeep? ie 12 months or 12000 miles. Should I go 6 months?

Many thanks.
Posted By: 1JZ_E46

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/24/18 06:21 PM

Very informative post. Thanks edyvw. The table I made in another thread in the Euro section may be of help to the OP to find an oil that meets the 3 approvals you mentioned:

Posted By: edyvw

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/25/18 05:41 AM

Originally Posted By: Tikka
Hi
Thank you for a fascinating insight into how things work.

You point out that a lot of testing goes in to developing engines. It seems as a layman that Mercedes developers dropped the ball with the om642. Things like oil cooler seals, oil dripping on swirl motor, oil vapour from the crankcase ventilation gumming up the inlet manifolds. Should these relatively simple problems be picked up and acted upon if testing is really so stringent?

I do a lot of stop start driving. Would you half the oil change interval recommended by Jeep? ie 12 months or 12000 miles. Should I go 6 months?

Many thanks.

Some issues develop over the time of exploitation. I know that MB had issues with oil coolers, and that is resolved later. Sometimes although companies put a lot of miles on the cars, you cannot replicate real life conditions over several years.
I personally do oil changes every 5,500 miles using Mobil1 5W30 ESP and Valvoline 5W40 MST (I found it on sale so still have it in stock). When it comes to oil evaporation, use oil with lowest NOACK. So far according to one web site Mobil1 5W30 ESP has lowest NOACK of available oils for modern diesels. Oils like Mobil1 Delvac or Shell Rotella T6 do not have nowhere near NOACK like Mobil1 5W30 ESP. That is the thing with oil approvals. Since you are doing a lot of city driving you want light oil like Mobil1 5W30 ESP, or some other MB229.51 0/5W30 oil. Do not go to 5W40 or heavy duty oils, especially 5W40 HDD oils. You want your oil to reach operating temperature as fast as possible.
Posted By: CleverUserName

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/25/18 08:08 AM

Originally Posted By: edyvw

VW504.00/507.00 is only 0//5W30 oils and among those oils has most stringent wear requirements. However, it allows SAPS to be very high, all the way to 1.5. Still, it is not possible to achieve DPF protection with such high SAPS, so companies never go above 0.8 in VW504.00/507.00. There is no doubt that low SAPS oils are using less additives, but generally they are because of very stringent requirements "cooked" with very sophisticated additives and high quality base oils. Oil company that I worked for as one of field test guys could cook high SAPS oil very cheaply. Low-SAPS oil was very expensive to develop and it is more expensive to make. We for example drove VW Golf V 1.9 TDI and 2.0TDI and Polo 1.2TDI for 400k km's before dissembling engines. Some tests included 20.000km with no turning off engine in open road environment, 20,000km in mixed and 20,000km in strictly urban driving. We would just recycle drivers constantly. Then stop/go traffic, very short turn off/turn on runs, extremely cold starts, or extremely hot starts etc, etc. After 400k km, engines and cars would be inspected for wear and tear. Then oil was sent to VW for approval.
Commercial type of oils like Rotella T6, Delvac, Delo etc. are not on par in sophistication with oils such as VW504.00/507.00 etc. Commercial use has different demands and oil companies in general have easier times to meet those demands since we are talking about different engines, different emission schedules, larger DPF/SCR systems that are easier to fit into big equipment vehicles. Those commercial vehicles usually have very large oil sumps, block heaters etc. Oil companies cannot develop expensive oil, especially on European market for such vehicles because it cuts into profit. Here oil is cheap, in Europe liter of VW504.00/507.00 is some $15-20. It hits profit if you are running let's say 200-300 trucks. That is why trucks are on different emission schedule and they could use higher SAPS oils, higher NOACK oils etc. since engines are more rudimentary.
As for MB229.5/1 I believe deposit wise that is most stringent spec. I think LL-04 is most stringent oxidation wise. That is why it is always good to buy oil that meets all those specs.
But to think how some UOA with some wear numbers will suddenly prove how some other non-approved oil is better is ridiculous. Manufacturers before sending engine on the market do everything possible to find weakness to that engine and then they constantly tests engines during sale to see are there any weak spots that are missed during initial testing. On top of that, data from service departments, failed engines etc. are always inspected and some practices when it comes to maintenance are updated (like for example FCA V6 diesel in JEEP and RAM). Those companies which neglect all that end up like Chrysler I guess.


Interesting, however I have a couple comments regarding some of your statements. I don't think that's true regarding the base oils in 507. Top Tec 4200 is a group III product. The base oil is not "high quality". It also has a rather high NOACK %. I would think there are also other brands that sell 507 oil composed of G III bases as well. In this example, the requirements for 507 must not be very stringent if it allows for this. It would also mean that it's ingredients are inferior to CJ-4 Delvac and Ravenol.

The new E6 HDEO Lubes being sold now, specifically Delvac LE 5w30 and Delvac ESP 5w30 are not cheap. LE is $35 and ESP is $45 a gallon. That is not "cheap", it is the same price as 507 oil, so I don't see your point about not being able to market "expensive low ash HD oils".

Lastly in 2016 FCA did finally change the spec on the Ecodiesel to an HDEO due to numerous oil related failures, however they did not change any of the emissions equipment. So it seems that the extra SAPS wasn't an issue.

VAG knows that the 502 oil they spec'd for the RS4 wasn't up to the task. It couldn't deal with the fuel dilution, nor could it protect the engine during the recommended OCI. What did VW/Audi do to solve this? NOTHING WHATSOEVER. They still have done nothing.

BMW has made similar mistakes. Either by using an oil that could not adequately protect the engine, and/or by having an extremely long OCI which further exacerbated their oil's shortcomings. Manufacturers are not always proactive about solving problems, especially if they happen outside the warranty window.

Originally Posted By: edyvw

Some issues develop over the time of exploitation. I know that MB had issues with oil coolers, and that is resolved later. Sometimes although companies put a lot of miles on the cars, you cannot replicate real life conditions over several years.
I personally do oil changes every 5,500 miles using Mobil1 5W30 ESP and Valvoline 5W40 MST (I found it on sale so still have it in stock). When it comes to oil evaporation, use oil with lowest NOACK. So far according to one web site Mobil1 5W30 ESP has lowest NOACK of available oils for modern diesels. Oils like Mobil1 Delvac or Shell Rotella T6 do not have nowhere near NOACK like Mobil1 5W30 ESP. That is the thing with oil approvals. Since you are doing a lot of city driving you want light oil like Mobil1 5W30 ESP, or some other MB229.51 0/5W30 oil. Do not go to 5W40 or heavy duty oils, especially 5W40 HDD oils. You want your oil to reach operating temperature as fast as possible.


What is the NOACK of Delvac ESP 5w40, specifically the CJ-4 formula ? I've looked everywhere I can think of but can't find it. Can you forward your resources?
Posted By: edyvw

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/25/18 08:47 AM

Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Originally Posted By: edyvw

VW504.00/507.00 is only 0//5W30 oils and among those oils has most stringent wear requirements. However, it allows SAPS to be very high, all the way to 1.5. Still, it is not possible to achieve DPF protection with such high SAPS, so companies never go above 0.8 in VW504.00/507.00. There is no doubt that low SAPS oils are using less additives, but generally they are because of very stringent requirements "cooked" with very sophisticated additives and high quality base oils. Oil company that I worked for as one of field test guys could cook high SAPS oil very cheaply. Low-SAPS oil was very expensive to develop and it is more expensive to make. We for example drove VW Golf V 1.9 TDI and 2.0TDI and Polo 1.2TDI for 400k km's before dissembling engines. Some tests included 20.000km with no turning off engine in open road environment, 20,000km in mixed and 20,000km in strictly urban driving. We would just recycle drivers constantly. Then stop/go traffic, very short turn off/turn on runs, extremely cold starts, or extremely hot starts etc, etc. After 400k km, engines and cars would be inspected for wear and tear. Then oil was sent to VW for approval.
Commercial type of oils like Rotella T6, Delvac, Delo etc. are not on par in sophistication with oils such as VW504.00/507.00 etc. Commercial use has different demands and oil companies in general have easier times to meet those demands since we are talking about different engines, different emission schedules, larger DPF/SCR systems that are easier to fit into big equipment vehicles. Those commercial vehicles usually have very large oil sumps, block heaters etc. Oil companies cannot develop expensive oil, especially on European market for such vehicles because it cuts into profit. Here oil is cheap, in Europe liter of VW504.00/507.00 is some $15-20. It hits profit if you are running let's say 200-300 trucks. That is why trucks are on different emission schedule and they could use higher SAPS oils, higher NOACK oils etc. since engines are more rudimentary.
As for MB229.5/1 I believe deposit wise that is most stringent spec. I think LL-04 is most stringent oxidation wise. That is why it is always good to buy oil that meets all those specs.
But to think how some UOA with some wear numbers will suddenly prove how some other non-approved oil is better is ridiculous. Manufacturers before sending engine on the market do everything possible to find weakness to that engine and then they constantly tests engines during sale to see are there any weak spots that are missed during initial testing. On top of that, data from service departments, failed engines etc. are always inspected and some practices when it comes to maintenance are updated (like for example FCA V6 diesel in JEEP and RAM). Those companies which neglect all that end up like Chrysler I guess.


Interesting, however I have a couple comments regarding some of your statements. I don't think that's true regarding the base oils in 507. Top Tec 4200 is a group III product. The base oil is not "high quality". It also has a rather high NOACK %. I would think there are also other brands that sell 507 oil composed of G III bases as well. In this example, the requirements for 507 must not be very stringent if it allows for this. It would also mean that it's ingredients are inferior to CJ-4 Delvac and Ravenol.

The new E6 HDEO Lubes being sold now, specifically Delvac LE 5w30 and Delvac ESP 5w30 are not cheap. LE is $35 and ESP is $45 a gallon. That is not "cheap", it is the same price as 507 oil, so I don't see your point about not being able to market "expensive low ash HD oils".

Lastly in 2016 FCA did finally change the spec on the Ecodiesel to an HDEO due to numerous oil related failures, however they did not change any of the emissions equipment. So it seems that the extra SAPS wasn't an issue.

VAG knows that the 502 oil they spec'd for the RS4 wasn't up to the task. It couldn't deal with the fuel dilution, nor could it protect the engine during the recommended OCI. What did VW/Audi do to solve this? NOTHING WHATSOEVER. They still have done nothing.

BMW has made similar mistakes. Either by using an oil that could not adequately protect the engine, and/or by having an extremely long OCI which further exacerbated their oil's shortcomings. Manufacturers are not always proactive about solving problems, especially if they happen outside the warranty window.

Originally Posted By: edyvw

Some issues develop over the time of exploitation. I know that MB had issues with oil coolers, and that is resolved later. Sometimes although companies put a lot of miles on the cars, you cannot replicate real life conditions over several years.
I personally do oil changes every 5,500 miles using Mobil1 5W30 ESP and Valvoline 5W40 MST (I found it on sale so still have it in stock). When it comes to oil evaporation, use oil with lowest NOACK. So far according to one web site Mobil1 5W30 ESP has lowest NOACK of available oils for modern diesels. Oils like Mobil1 Delvac or Shell Rotella T6 do not have nowhere near NOACK like Mobil1 5W30 ESP. That is the thing with oil approvals. Since you are doing a lot of city driving you want light oil like Mobil1 5W30 ESP, or some other MB229.51 0/5W30 oil. Do not go to 5W40 or heavy duty oils, especially 5W40 HDD oils. You want your oil to reach operating temperature as fast as possible.


What is the NOACK of Delvac ESP 5w40, specifically the CJ-4 formula ? I've looked everywhere I can think of but can't find it. Can you forward your resources?

Just because oil is made out of Group III base stock does not mean that base stock is in lower quality. Mobil1 5W30 ESP is prime example of that where NOACK is (supposedly though) 5.6%. It is final product that matters, not whether oil is using primarily GR III, IV or V. Each group has its own advantages, and they are usually mixed.
As for Delvac NOACK, I really cannot remember where I have seen their numbers, thought I remember precisely that T6 is 12.4%. Your reference how Delvac is $35 and expensive is not accurate in global terms. That is actually NOT expensive oil. Oil in the U.S. is cheap, including Delvac. Same oil in Europe is probably $20 more.
As for FCA, I stated long time ago here, when they decided to move to Shell Rotella that DPF will be long term issue. However, what is long term? That is FCA decision to make. Probably they calculated that DPF and other emission related components will last more then 120,000 miles. After that, marketing calculation is that it will not affect company. And it was not oil related issue. Heavier oil (remember, FCA also said C3 5W40 is acceptable, as well as ACEA A3/B3 B4) is used to hide engineering issue. In the end, I believe that major role in that decision as the fact that a). FCA has deal with Shell, and Shell does not have 5W40 C3 oil in the U.S., and b). availability of T6.
As for VW502.00, I am not sure any ACEA A3/B3 B4 oil was able to deal with fuel dilution issues in first generation FSI engines. If you are referring to the fact that people used T6 in those engines and other FSI engines such as EA113, that is because of weight, which was 14.2cst, not because somehow T6 is magical oil since it is HDD oil. Most VW502.00 5W40 oils are light W40 oils in low 13cst range. Why VW did not do anything? Again, marketing, what is damage from that? In the end we are talking about company that thought they can scam whole world with so called "clean" diesel.
Do not get me wrong, companies are in the business of making money, and they will calculate whether they will recall some engines, other components or not. Also oil companies are in the business of making money, and if they think they can make oil that meets whatever spec. with cheapest base oil, they will do it, including HDD oils.
However, there is no any incentive for VW, BMW, MB, whatever, to recommend more expensive oil for their consumers if cheaper oil will do the job. It is all about money, bang for a buck etc.
Posted By: CleverUserName

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/25/18 10:40 AM

Originally Posted By: edyvw

Just because oil is made out of Group III base stock does not mean that base stock is in lower quality. Mobil1 5W30 ESP is prime example of that where NOACK is (supposedly though) 5.6%. It is final product that matters, not whether oil is using primarily GR III, IV or V. Each group has its own advantages, and they are usually mixed.
As for Delvac NOACK, I really cannot remember where I have seen their numbers, thought I remember precisely that T6 is 12.4%. Your reference how Delvac is $35 and expensive is not accurate in global terms. That is actually NOT expensive oil. Oil in the U.S. is cheap, including Delvac. Same oil in Europe is probably $20 more.
As for FCA, I stated long time ago here, when they decided to move to Shell Rotella that DPF will be long term issue. However, what is long term? That is FCA decision to make. Probably they calculated that DPF and other emission related components will last more then 120,000 miles. After that, marketing calculation is that it will not affect company. And it was not oil related issue. Heavier oil (remember, FCA also said C3 5W40 is acceptable, as well as ACEA A3/B3 B4) is used to hide engineering issue. In the end, I believe that major role in that decision as the fact that a). FCA has deal with Shell, and Shell does not have 5W40 C3 oil in the U.S., and b). availability of T6.
As for VW502.00, I am not sure any ACEA A3/B3 B4 oil was able to deal with fuel dilution issues in first generation FSI engines. If you are referring to the fact that people used T6 in those engines and other FSI engines such as EA113, that is because of weight, which was 14.2cst, not because somehow T6 is magical oil since it is HDD oil. Most VW502.00 5W40 oils are light W40 oils in low 13cst range. Why VW did not do anything? Again, marketing, what is damage from that? In the end we are talking about company that thought they can scam whole world with so called "clean" diesel.
Do not get me wrong, companies are in the business of making money, and they will calculate whether they will recall some engines, other components or not. Also oil companies are in the business of making money, and if they think they can make oil that meets whatever spec. with cheapest base oil, they will do it, including HDD oils.
However, there is no any incentive for VW, BMW, MB, whatever, to recommend more expensive oil for their consumers if cheaper oil will do the job. It is all about money, bang for a buck etc.


Group III is in cheaper synthetics, has lower FP, Higher PP and higher NOACK. That's what some people would call "inferior". However, my comment had more to do with the VW 507 spec not being as stringent or sophisticated as you infer, since it allows a lower quality base to be used.

Yes ESP 5w30 is impressive @ 5.6%. So is the BMW twinpower turbo 5w30 A3/B4 LL01 @ 6.2%. OEM oils can be high quality, as it the twinpower. At least they used to make them that way..

When PQIA tested CJ-4 T6 it was 12.8%. It barely met the max NOACK of 13%. It is a primarily G III base oil, with a little splash of PAO. It was ran through a GC/IR test and determined it's constituents. Delvac ESP also was tested and came back as a high % of PAO. I think Chevron sponsored the tests and it was in one of their powerpoints I saw on here.

Someone also on here posted a list of mobil synthetic sample oil blends and there was a 5w40 with nearly the same properties as Delvac ESP 5w40, and it was 7% NOACK. The Ravenol NDT 5w40 is 8%, and it uses lighter base oils. I think the CJ-4 Delvac is somewhere between 7-8%, however I don't think anyone ever published test results. D1 and T6 are not even in the same league.

Anyone who was on the forums and knew about the RS4 oil issues was probably using Biosyn 5w40. That's what I was talking about, not T6.

And lastly, another member here in Canada said that E6 lubes like Delvac LE were actually significantly cheaper in the great white north. Isn't it the same in Europe, since there is more demand for E6 stuff?
Posted By: Tikka

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/25/18 01:14 PM

Hi gents
Just so you can get an idea of prices and what is available here is a link to a UK web based oil seller. I am in no way connected to them I just use them as an example.
https://www.opieoils.co.uk/search/go?w=mb%20229.51
Posted By: 1JZ_E46

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/25/18 02:57 PM

Clever, not all Group 3 basestocks are creates equally. Just like not all additives are created equally (for example, moly). Also, G3 has certain advantages over Group 4/5. Again, focus on the qualities of the finished product, which includes rigorous quality testing to obtain OEM approval. It just takes the speculation/conspiracy/guesswork out of the equation.

And the ecodiesel did not have oil related failures. They had engineering related failures and are using the band-aid effect of thicker oil to fix.
Posted By: CleverUserName

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/25/18 11:34 PM

Can you provide a TSB or some other documentation showing the engineering failures on the Ecodiesel ?
Posted By: 1JZ_E46

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/26/18 12:30 AM

Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Can you provide a TSB or some other documentation showing the engineering failures on the Ecodiesel ?


Failure rate is at 15%. Mostly main bearing failures. These are not due to low saps oil. Not sure if FCA or VMM have formally recognized the issue.

Link 1

Lots of info here. 1,500+ posts: Link 2
Posted By: Tikka

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/27/18 01:29 PM

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Very informative post. Thanks edyvw. The table I made in another thread in the Euro section may be of help to the OP to find an oil that meets the 3 approvals you mentioned:



Hi.
The OM642 has issues with the crankcase vapours gumming up the works. Is a lower NOACK better for this issue? Are they much the same once they all reach 10% or less?
The cheapest oil available to me would you believe is genuine merc stuff from the main dealer. I can have it for £3.25 a litre delivered. I can find no specs for it though. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20-L-Genuine-...=item1c6d8cf701
Posted By: 1JZ_E46

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/27/18 03:50 PM

I wouldnít worry too much about NOACK. They will all be extremely close to each other. I would find one with 229.51, LL-04, and 504/507 that is the cheapest. They are all top notch oils.
Posted By: edyvw

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/28/18 08:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Tikka
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Very informative post. Thanks edyvw. The table I made in another thread in the Euro section may be of help to the OP to find an oil that meets the 3 approvals you mentioned:



Hi.
The OM642 has issues with the crankcase vapours gumming up the works. Is a lower NOACK better for this issue? Are they much the same once they all reach 10% or less?
The cheapest oil available to me would you believe is genuine merc stuff from the main dealer. I can have it for £3.25 a litre delivered. I can find no specs for it though. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20-L-Genuine-...=item1c6d8cf701

Probably made by Mobil1.
MB229.51 is stringent on NOACK. Unless oil is Mobil1 5W30 ESP which has very low NOACK, other will be pretty close to each other.
Posted By: Garak

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/30/18 01:30 AM

Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
The new E6 HDEO Lubes being sold now, specifically Delvac LE 5w30 and Delvac ESP 5w30 are not cheap. LE is $35 and ESP is $45 a gallon. That is not "cheap", it is the same price as 507 oil, so I don't see your point about not being able to market "expensive low ash HD oils".

They're cheap up here, and I would gather a distributor would be a better source for those south of the border, too. I can get Delvac 1 LE 5w-30 for under $30 a gallon, and that's Canadian dollars. The same applies to Shell Rotella T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30 (in five litre jugs here), which I was pricing out before Shell's Chris Guerrero set me up.

Generally speaking, I'd expect them to be expensive outside of the distributor, at least until they become more common on the shelf. NAPA Canada can get the Rotella relatively cheap by Canadian standards. I haven't seen the Delvac 1 LE 5w-30 at anywhere except the distributor so far.
Posted By: CleverUserName

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/30/18 07:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Garak

They're cheap up here, and I would gather a distributor would be a better source for those south of the border, too. I can get Delvac 1 LE 5w-30 for under $30 a gallon, and that's Canadian dollars. The same applies to Shell Rotella T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30 (in five litre jugs here), which I was pricing out before Shell's Chris Guerrero set me up.

Generally speaking, I'd expect them to be expensive outside of the distributor, at least until they become more common on the shelf. NAPA Canada can get the Rotella relatively cheap by Canadian standards. I haven't seen the Delvac 1 LE 5w-30 at anywhere except the distributor so far.


It's not cheap. I have a friend here in CA that works for the regional Mobil bulk oil distributor. He can get the Delvac LE 5w30 at his employee discount which is wholesale cost + 15% + Sales tax. It was ~ $35/gallon, if I bought a case 4x1 gallons.

He does not have the Delvac ESP 5w30 in the warehouse yet.

I was able to get a gallon of Delvac Synthetic 75w90 GL5 gear oil for $28 + tax from him which was a great price, however the Delvac LE is not cheap, even at his discounted cost.
Posted By: CleverUserName

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/30/18 08:18 AM

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Can you provide a TSB or some other documentation showing the engineering failures on the Ecodiesel ?


Failure rate is at 15%. Mostly main bearing failures. These are not due to low saps oil. Not sure if FCA or VMM have formally recognized the issue.

Link 1

Lots of info here. 1,500+ posts: Link 2


This doesn't say failure rate is 15%. It says it's risen 15% since a previous point in time.

Also those "secret documents" on the first link aren't very convincing. Sorry I need more hard data besides these posts on an obscure forum..

I read many pages of the thread in the second link about a year ago. I was considering buying an Ecodiesel until I realized how bad they were. The 1500 Ecodiesel is a great idea but poorly executed by FCA.

Many owners had bottom end failures, and that does seem to be the most common issue, however since most failed under warranty no autopsies were performed and FCA holds the data.

FCA has said publicly the failures on the Ecodiesel are oil related.

I also have seen numerous UOAs from Ecodiesels that had coolant contamination in the oil, either due to a failed EGR / Oil Cooler or both. So if the engine oil had coolant contamination, this would still be considered an oil related bottom end failure.
Posted By: 1JZ_E46

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/30/18 02:09 PM

An engine thatís engineered for a particular lubricant does not have such a high failure rate because of said lubricant, itís an engineering flaw. There are many Diesel engines that go hundreds of thousands of miles on C3 lubricants. I donít know how to dumb it down any further.
Posted By: Garak

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/30/18 10:01 PM

Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
It's not cheap. I have a friend here in CA that works for the regional Mobil bulk oil distributor. He can get the Delvac LE 5w30 at his employee discount which is wholesale cost + 15% + Sales tax. It was ~ $35/gallon, if I bought a case 4x1 gallons.

Yes, that is overpriced. Delvac 1 LE 5w-30 was the same price as Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, and the price I mentioned is me walking in off the street, not at corporate discount, either. Large commercial enterprises here get it at half that price again, so likely under $15 a gallon for them.
Posted By: edyvw

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/31/18 06:02 AM

Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Can you provide a TSB or some other documentation showing the engineering failures on the Ecodiesel ?


Failure rate is at 15%. Mostly main bearing failures. These are not due to low saps oil. Not sure if FCA or VMM have formally recognized the issue.

Link 1

Lots of info here. 1,500+ posts: Link 2


This doesn't say failure rate is 15%. It says it's risen 15% since a previous point in time.

Also those "secret documents" on the first link aren't very convincing. Sorry I need more hard data besides these posts on an obscure forum..

I read many pages of the thread in the second link about a year ago. I was considering buying an Ecodiesel until I realized how bad they were. The 1500 Ecodiesel is a great idea but poorly executed by FCA.

Many owners had bottom end failures, and that does seem to be the most common issue, however since most failed under warranty no autopsies were performed and FCA holds the data.

FCA has said publicly the failures on the Ecodiesel are oil related.

I also have seen numerous UOAs from Ecodiesels that had coolant contamination in the oil, either due to a failed EGR / Oil Cooler or both. So if the engine oil had coolant contamination, this would still be considered an oil related bottom end failure.


FCA is holding data but it is publicly saying it is oil related. So, let me get this straight: FCA is in business of making engines but not oil. So they blamed oil made by Shell and then decided to use another oil also made by Shell. No autopsies are performed but they know it is oil and they are holding data.
Geeez.
Posted By: edyvw

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/31/18 06:03 AM

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
An engine thatís engineered for a particular lubricant does not have such a high failure rate because of said lubricant, itís an engineering flaw. There are many Diesel engines that go hundreds of thousands of miles on C3 lubricants. I donít know how to dumb it down any further.

I would say that is conclusion of this topic.
Posted By: CleverUserName

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/31/18 10:01 AM

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
An engine thatís engineered for a particular lubricant does not have such a high failure rate because of said lubricant, itís an engineering flaw. There are many Diesel engines that go hundreds of thousands of miles on C3 lubricants. I donít know how to dumb it down any further.


Originally Posted By: edyvw

FCA is holding data but it is publicly saying it is oil related. So, let me get this straight: FCA is in business of making engines but not oil. So they blamed oil made by Shell and then decided to use another oil also made by Shell. No autopsies are performed but they know it is oil and they are holding data.
Geeez.


The autopsies may have been performed by the dealer, however the data is owned by FCA. They (FCA) are the only ones who know exactly what is happening. Publicly, they say it's oil related failures.

FCA did not blame the oil itself or Shell, but the C3 type of oil made by Pennzoil.

The failures may primarily be from coolant contamination of the engine oil. If so, it's still an oil related failure. A warranty repair. Period.

Design flaw or low quality parts that fail (Oil/EGR coolers). Statistically, the causes are known only to FCA.

I've already made my point, and the information provided is accurate. I choose to not use any C3 lube in a utility vehicle used for moderate duty or towing 7.5K lbs based on the Ecodiesel fiasco. As a result, I'm getting great oil reports with low wear numbers with a CJ-4 substitue. Dumb? Case closed.

All you're doing is speculating.
Posted By: 1JZ_E46

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/31/18 06:11 PM

If a BMW engine started losing main or rod bearings using LL-01 or LL-04 oil, would you blame the oil? I think not. Of course BMW could probably improve the failure rate by specíing 10W-60, but that doesnít mean itís a lubricant issue. Itís an design issue.
Posted By: Garak

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/31/18 11:17 PM

Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
FCA did not blame the oil itself or Shell, but the C3 type of oil made by Pennzoil.

The same oil that met the builder approval from FCA? It seems to me that if you come up with a specification and then contract an oil company to produce said oil, and issue said builder specification, then find out that you're having failures, saying oil related failure is a matter of semantics.

If you call for an unsuitable product for your application and the predictable consequences occur, whose fault is it? If Cummins decides all of a sudden to revise CES 20086 so that Pennzoil 5w-20 conventional passes it and they issue them a builder approval, the predictable consequences are not Pennzoil's fault.

Now, I have no problem with you going to an ordinary HDEO in your situation, nor do I have a concern with Chrysler doing that same with these particular vehicles. FCA simply didn't specify an appropriate oil. If C3 wasn't appropriate, they should have specified E7, E9 in the first place.
Posted By: Tikka

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 05/31/18 11:29 PM

The talk of engine failure on the later Fiat built 3.0crd Jeep is interesting. I have never come across this problem being reported in UK despite the vast vast majority of UK WK2 being Diesel. The only Petrol one being the 6.4 litre hemi that sells in tiny numbers.
Posted By: Garak

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/01/18 01:25 AM

Perhaps tunes in North America are different, and that could be troublesome, too. Emissions standards are different, and while we do have ULSD, it may not be identical to what's available in Europe, either.
Posted By: edyvw

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/01/18 05:00 AM

Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
An engine thatís engineered for a particular lubricant does not have such a high failure rate because of said lubricant, itís an engineering flaw. There are many Diesel engines that go hundreds of thousands of miles on C3 lubricants. I donít know how to dumb it down any further.


Originally Posted By: edyvw

FCA is holding data but it is publicly saying it is oil related. So, let me get this straight: FCA is in business of making engines but not oil. So they blamed oil made by Shell and then decided to use another oil also made by Shell. No autopsies are performed but they know it is oil and they are holding data.
Geeez.


The autopsies may have been performed by the dealer, however the data is owned by FCA. They (FCA) are the only ones who know exactly what is happening. Publicly, they say it's oil related failures.

FCA did not blame the oil itself or Shell, but the C3 type of oil made by Pennzoil.

The failures may primarily be from coolant contamination of the engine oil. If so, it's still an oil related failure. A warranty repair. Period.

Design flaw or low quality parts that fail (Oil/EGR coolers). Statistically, the causes are known only to FCA.

I've already made my point, and the information provided is accurate. I choose to not use any C3 lube in a utility vehicle used for moderate duty or towing 7.5K lbs based on the Ecodiesel fiasco. As a result, I'm getting great oil reports with low wear numbers with a CJ-4 substitue. Dumb? Case closed.

All you're doing is speculating.

So that is why FCA said it is OK to use C3 5W40, OR A3/B3 B4 5W40 OR CJ-4 5W40?
Autopsies performed by dealer?
This is becoming interesting, keep going.
Posted By: edyvw

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/01/18 05:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Garak
Perhaps tunes in North America are different, and that could be troublesome, too. Emissions standards are different, and while we do have ULSD, it may not be identical to what's available in Europe, either.

No SCR in Europe until 2016.
Posted By: CleverUserName

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/01/18 07:56 AM

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
An engine thatís engineered for a particular lubricant does not have such a high failure rate because of said lubricant, itís an engineering flaw. There are many Diesel engines that go hundreds of thousands of miles on C3 lubricants. I donít know how to dumb it down any further.


Originally Posted By: edyvw

FCA is holding data but it is publicly saying it is oil related. So, let me get this straight: FCA is in business of making engines but not oil. So they blamed oil made by Shell and then decided to use another oil also made by Shell. No autopsies are performed but they know it is oil and they are holding data.
Geeez.


The autopsies may have been performed by the dealer, however the data is owned by FCA. They (FCA) are the only ones who know exactly what is happening. Publicly, they say it's oil related failures.

FCA did not blame the oil itself or Shell, but the C3 type of oil made by Pennzoil.

The failures may primarily be from coolant contamination of the engine oil. If so, it's still an oil related failure. A warranty repair. Period.

Design flaw or low quality parts that fail (Oil/EGR coolers). Statistically, the causes are known only to FCA.

I've already made my point, and the information provided is accurate. I choose to not use any C3 lube in a utility vehicle used for moderate duty or towing 7.5K lbs based on the Ecodiesel fiasco. As a result, I'm getting great oil reports with low wear numbers with a CJ-4 substitue. Dumb? Case closed.

All you're doing is speculating.

So that is why FCA said it is OK to use C3 5W40, OR A3/B3 B4 5W40 OR CJ-4 5W40?
Autopsies performed by dealer?
This is becoming interesting, keep going.


The new Ecodiesel spec is the same as Cummins CES 20081. There is no C3 oil, 5w40 or otherwise thatís meets that specification. There all CJ/CK low ash type HDEOs.
http://www.lubritecinc.com/PDF/CES20081B.pdf
Posted By: edyvw

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/01/18 04:20 PM

Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
An engine thatís engineered for a particular lubricant does not have such a high failure rate because of said lubricant, itís an engineering flaw. There are many Diesel engines that go hundreds of thousands of miles on C3 lubricants. I donít know how to dumb it down any further.


Originally Posted By: edyvw

FCA is holding data but it is publicly saying it is oil related. So, let me get this straight: FCA is in business of making engines but not oil. So they blamed oil made by Shell and then decided to use another oil also made by Shell. No autopsies are performed but they know it is oil and they are holding data.
Geeez.


The autopsies may have been performed by the dealer, however the data is owned by FCA. They (FCA) are the only ones who know exactly what is happening. Publicly, they say it's oil related failures.

FCA did not blame the oil itself or Shell, but the C3 type of oil made by Pennzoil.

The failures may primarily be from coolant contamination of the engine oil. If so, it's still an oil related failure. A warranty repair. Period.

Design flaw or low quality parts that fail (Oil/EGR coolers). Statistically, the causes are known only to FCA.

I've already made my point, and the information provided is accurate. I choose to not use any C3 lube in a utility vehicle used for moderate duty or towing 7.5K lbs based on the Ecodiesel fiasco. As a result, I'm getting great oil reports with low wear numbers with a CJ-4 substitue. Dumb? Case closed.

All you're doing is speculating.

So that is why FCA said it is OK to use C3 5W40, OR A3/B3 B4 5W40 OR CJ-4 5W40?
Autopsies performed by dealer?
This is becoming interesting, keep going.


The new Ecodiesel spec is the same as Cummins CES 20081. There is no C3 oil, 5w40 or otherwise thatís meets that specification. There all CJ/CK low ash type HDEOs.
http://www.lubritecinc.com/PDF/CES20081B.pdf

What this document has to do with 3.0 engine? There are oils on this list I would not touch with a pole.
Posted By: CleverUserName

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/01/18 05:21 PM

The new spec for the VM L630 is FCA MS-10902 and Cummins CES 20081 in 5w40. That list is CES 20081. You need to now use a CJ/CK HDEO in 5w40 if you are unfortunate enough to own an Ecodiesel.

You are incorrect. There are no C3 oils on that list, in 5w40 or otherwise. A C3 oil would not meet the new specification.



Posted By: Garak

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/02/18 12:56 AM

It's interesting to note that I can count four E6 5w-30 examples there right off the top of my head.
Posted By: edyvw

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/02/18 05:37 AM

Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
The new spec for the VM L630 is FCA MS-10902 and Cummins CES 20081 in 5w40. That list is CES 20081. You need to now use a CJ/CK HDEO in 5w40 if you are unfortunate enough to own an Ecodiesel.

You are incorrect. There are no C3 oils on that list, in 5w40 or otherwise. A C3 oil would not meet the new specification.




On that list you posted you have Castrol GTX 15W40 and other similar oils. So do you fallow list? Or you are weeding out 5W40 oils? Actually yeah, FCA said ACEA A3/B4 not C3. So it is not only CJ/CK.
By the way, that engine is still recommended for use with C3 oils in Europe.
Again, only reason why FCA is not recommending C3 5W40 is because SOPUS does not have 5W40 C3 on NA market.
Posted By: edyvw

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/02/18 05:41 AM

Originally Posted By: Garak
It's interesting to note that I can count four E6 5w-30 examples there right off the top of my head.

What is interesting that those engines make hundreds of thousands of miles in Europe on C3 5W30 oils.
I had Lancia Lybra 2.4JTD that did some 350k miles on C3 oils. But, it must be dream because someone did two UOA of VW TDI and Chevrolet Duramax.
I am actually waiting my M57 n BMW to disintegrate because of C3 oil smile
Posted By: Garak

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/02/18 06:43 AM

Well, I'm not sure what FCA had going on there, but something clearly didn't work. I guess we'll have to see how Ford and GM manage with their smaller diesels in North America. GM seems to be doing okay so far, but Ford gets a little antsy about diesel oil specs, and FCA had some sort of a mess happening.

You need a spreadsheet to keep track of Chrysler oil specifications. Between ILSAC, Benz, Cummins, and Fiat, they need a company with the resources of Shell to keep a dealership stocked. wink
Posted By: Garak

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/02/18 06:45 AM

Oh, and I don't have any TSBs handy, but I thought that when this happened, Chrysler said to use A3/B4 or CJ-4 and/or E7, E9 as available, but I could very well be mistaken.
Posted By: edyvw

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/02/18 07:04 AM

Originally Posted By: Garak
Well, I'm not sure what FCA had going on there, but something clearly didn't work. I guess we'll have to see how Ford and GM manage with their smaller diesels in North America. GM seems to be doing okay so far, but Ford gets a little antsy about diesel oil specs, and FCA had some sort of a mess happening.

You need a spreadsheet to keep track of Chrysler oil specifications. Between ILSAC, Benz, Cummins, and Fiat, they need a company with the resources of Shell to keep a dealership stocked. wink

Ford in Europe also had mess with their TDCI engine. They I think used C3, then moved to C2 to bump up fuel economy. Who knows.
I think GM is using Opel engine here. Opel was never big name in diesels in Europe, they had some really nasty failures. But they improved last 15 years. Now Opel is getting PSA diesels which are like ten light years ahead of Opel/GM 4-cyl engines.
Posted By: Garak

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/02/18 07:37 AM

The smaller diesels GM is using call for the dexos2 (C3 based) ones, including the ones for the small trucks, the small Duramaxes. Of course, the larger ones are sticking to CJ-4/CK-4 and so forth.
Posted By: edyvw

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/02/18 07:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Garak
The smaller diesels GM is using call for the dexos2 (C3 based) ones, including the ones for the small trucks, the small Duramaxes. Of course, the larger ones are sticking to CJ-4/CK-4 and so forth.

Yeah I know what they use. But generally, those 2.0ltr engines are mediocre at best. They first saw light of day in 1998 in Opel Vectra B. People were running away from those cars like they have a plague. There is no oil that could fix cost saving measures GM implemented on those engines.
Posted By: CleverUserName

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/02/18 12:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Garak
The smaller diesels GM is using call for the dexos2 (C3 based) ones, including the ones for the small trucks, the small Duramaxes. Of course, the larger ones are sticking to CJ-4/CK-4 and so forth.


Iím going to get one of the new Chevy Cruz diesels after my VW buyback is completed this summer. On paper, the 1.6 ecotec is impressive.ive never seen any Diesel engine that has VVT, so it does appear to be very sophisticated. Itís rated at nearly the same HP/TQ as my 2.0 CR TDI was with 20% less displacement. The only thing I donít like about it is the start/stop feature that comes on the automatic version which canít be turned off.

I will not be using Dexos 2 in that car either. Delvac or BioSyn CJ-4 after draining the FF.
Posted By: chrisri

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/02/18 03:06 PM

Interesting topic. I've noticed few peculiarities.

Someone mentioned that a C3 oil in a SAE 5w30 grade will not offer same level of protection as a C3 5w40. That can't be right. Both oils meet the same spec, slight difference is in kinematic viscosity, purely cosmetic.

Someone mentioned that a 3.0 FPT built diesel does not exhibit same failures in EU- which is true, at least to my knowing. Same oil was specified on both markets.

There could be that either
Fuel in US and EU isn't same ULSF
Engines are not built in same factory/to the same standards/specifications
Trucks are not used in the same manner-seriously doubt that, and even so that is not an excuse.
Engine mapping for NA (to meet different emissions) is culprit for oil dilution with fuel- i would say engine have a weak bottom by design, and oil dilution isn't helping.

As for Opel diesels, all recent engines are FPT (Fiat Powertrain) derivatives, the JTD/Multijet, only 3.0 and 1.7 are Isuzu. 1.9 CDTI 8v/16v is identical to the Multijet. 2.0 is slightly different but still the same general design. Not sure for the 1.6, probably short stroke 2.0. All will do lot of kilometers on C3/Dexos2 oils.

Posted By: 1JZ_E46

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/02/18 04:02 PM

Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Iím going to get one of the new Chevy Cruz diesels after my VW buyback is completed this summer. On paper, the 1.6 ecotec is impressive.ive never seen any Diesel engine that has VVT, so it does appear to be very sophisticated. Itís rated at nearly the same HP/TQ as my 2.0 CR TDI was with 20% less displacement. The only thing I donít like about it is the start/stop feature that comes on the automatic version which canít be turned off.

I will not be using Dexos 2 in that car either. Delvac or BioSyn CJ-4 after draining the FF.


Is that an approved oil per the OM?
Posted By: edyvw

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/03/18 05:48 AM

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Iím going to get one of the new Chevy Cruz diesels after my VW buyback is completed this summer. On paper, the 1.6 ecotec is impressive.ive never seen any Diesel engine that has VVT, so it does appear to be very sophisticated. Itís rated at nearly the same HP/TQ as my 2.0 CR TDI was with 20% less displacement. The only thing I donít like about it is the start/stop feature that comes on the automatic version which canít be turned off.

I will not be using Dexos 2 in that car either. Delvac or BioSyn CJ-4 after draining the FF.


Is that an approved oil per the OM?

No, but he did do two UOA.
Posted By: edyvw

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/03/18 05:54 AM

Originally Posted By: chrisri
Interesting topic. I've noticed few peculiarities.

Someone mentioned that a C3 oil in a SAE 5w30 grade will not offer same level of protection as a C3 5w40. That can't be right. Both oils meet the same spec, slight difference is in kinematic viscosity, purely cosmetic.

Someone mentioned that a 3.0 FPT built diesel does not exhibit same failures in EU- which is true, at least to my knowing. Same oil was specified on both markets.

There could be that either
Fuel in US and EU isn't same ULSF
Engines are not built in same factory/to the same standards/specifications
Trucks are not used in the same manner-seriously doubt that, and even so that is not an excuse.
Engine mapping for NA (to meet different emissions) is culprit for oil dilution with fuel- i would say engine have a weak bottom by design, and oil dilution isn't helping.

As for Opel diesels, all recent engines are FPT (Fiat Powertrain) derivatives, the JTD/Multijet, only 3.0 and 1.7 are Isuzu. 1.9 CDTI 8v/16v is identical to the Multijet. 2.0 is slightly different but still the same general design. Not sure for the 1.6, probably short stroke 2.0. All will do lot of kilometers on C3/Dexos2 oils.


Wait, OPEL used 2.0 multijet later in Insignia? I know they used 1.9CDTI. 2.0 and 1.6 if not directly sourced from FCA it is not derivative. OPEL/GM had some deal with FIAT regarding swapping engines in similar manner like with BMW when GM gave six speed auto tranny for 2.5 inline six diesel, but GM/OPEL never had any rights to continue development.
Posted By: CleverUserName

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/03/18 08:05 AM

Originally Posted By: Garak
Oh, and I don't have any TSBs handy, but I thought that when this happened, Chrysler said to use A3/B4 or CJ-4 and/or E7, E9 as available, but I could very well be mistaken.


The original link is dead, but this does have a quote from it:

Quote:
We recommend you use a 5W‐40 syntheƟc engine oilÖ that meets FCA Material Stand‐
ard MS‐10902 and the API CJ‐4 category is required.
(https://www.mopar.com/ramtrucks/en‐us/care/knowledge‐center.html )


https://hd.valvoline.com/sites/default/files/bulletins/valvoline_tib_-_ram_jeep_3.0l_ecodiesel.pdf

Originally Posted By: chrisri
Interesting topic. I've noticed few peculiarities.

Someone mentioned that a C3 oil in a SAE 5w30 grade will not offer same level of protection as a C3 5w40. That can't be right. Both oils meet the same spec, slight difference is in kinematic viscosity, purely cosmetic.

Someone mentioned that a 3.0 FPT built diesel does not exhibit same failures in EU- which is true, at least to my knowing. Same oil was specified on both markets.

There could be that either
Fuel in US and EU isn't same ULSF
Engines are not built in same factory/to the same standards/specifications
Trucks are not used in the same manner-seriously doubt that, and even so that is not an excuse.
Engine mapping for NA (to meet different emissions) is culprit for oil dilution with fuel- i would say engine have a weak bottom by design, and oil dilution isn't helping.


As for Opel diesels, all recent engines are FPT (Fiat Powertrain) derivatives, the JTD/Multijet, only 3.0 and 1.7 are Isuzu. 1.9 CDTI 8v/16v is identical to the Multijet. 2.0 is slightly different but still the same general design. Not sure for the 1.6, probably short stroke 2.0. All will do lot of kilometers on C3/Dexos2 oils.


I believe diesel in EU is higher quality than most of what's available in USA, except for CA. Cetane value is higher for sure than the other 49 states. CA has statewide mandated very high quality D#2 for Air Quality.

Ecodiesel long blocks and crate motors come from Italy. FCA has not "rebuilt" any of these motors to my knowledge. So most likely all made in the same factory(s).

1500 series trucks are popular for pulling travel trailers and toy haulers up to 9-10+K lbs. Not sure how popular camping or motorsports is in EU but that's what we do here.
Definitely different fuels, emissions equipment, tuning, and duty cycles between the two applications.

Originally Posted By: edyvw

No, but he did do two UOA.


Yes I did two UOAs and also there is another series of UOAs from a 2014 Chevy Cruze using Amsoil Low Saps and Biosyn CJ-4 posted on here somewhere. They had similar wear numbers, however the Biosyn handled water and fuel contamination much better and there was no bearing wear, unlike the Amsoil which did have some soft metals detected in the UOA. Dealing with oil contamination seems to be one of the major strengths of the Biosyn formula.

Neither the Amsoil or the Biosyn are Dexos 2 certified. Just like Delvac ESP.

Originally Posted By: edyvw

Wait, OPEL used 2.0 multijet later in Insignia? I know they used 1.9CDTI. 2.0 and 1.6 if not directly sourced from FCA it is not derivative. OPEL/GM had some deal with FIAT regarding swapping engines in similar manner like with BMW when GM gave six speed auto tranny for 2.5 inline six diesel, but GM/OPEL never had any rights to continue development.


http://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/gm-engines/lh7/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Medium_Diesel_engine
Posted By: chrisri

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/03/18 11:33 AM

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Interesting topic. I've noticed few peculiarities.

Someone mentioned that a C3 oil in a SAE 5w30 grade will not offer same level of protection as a C3 5w40. That can't be right. Both oils meet the same spec, slight difference is in kinematic viscosity, purely cosmetic.

Someone mentioned that a 3.0 FPT built diesel does not exhibit same failures in EU- which is true, at least to my knowing. Same oil was specified on both markets.

There could be that either
Fuel in US and EU isn't same ULSF
Engines are not built in same factory/to the same standards/specifications
Trucks are not used in the same manner-seriously doubt that, and even so that is not an excuse.
Engine mapping for NA (to meet different emissions) is culprit for oil dilution with fuel- i would say engine have a weak bottom by design, and oil dilution isn't helping.

As for Opel diesels, all recent engines are FPT (Fiat Powertrain) derivatives, the JTD/Multijet, only 3.0 and 1.7 are Isuzu. 1.9 CDTI 8v/16v is identical to the Multijet. 2.0 is slightly different but still the same general design. Not sure for the 1.6, probably short stroke 2.0. All will do lot of kilometers on C3/Dexos2 oils.


Wait, OPEL used 2.0 multijet later in Insignia? I know they used 1.9CDTI. 2.0 and 1.6 if not directly sourced from FCA it is not derivative. OPEL/GM had some deal with FIAT regarding swapping engines in similar manner like with BMW when GM gave six speed auto tranny for 2.5 inline six diesel, but GM/OPEL never had any rights to continue development.

2.0 Opel version went through same modifications as the 2.0 Multijet for meeting Euro 5 emission standard. Bore was enlarged for 1mm, third generation common rail with higher pressure, new turbo/manifold, new DPF- now next to the engine.
GM still have engine research center in Turin, and rights to use and further develop 2.0 diesel engine. It was not part of a deal with PSA.
1.6 cdti is all alloy Opel design, has nothing in common with 1.6 jtdm, except the Combo, which is a rebaged Doblo using mjet.
1.3 cdti is FPT engine.

Those engines are/were used in everything GM had connection with, SAABs, Suzukis, Opels.
Fiat used 1.8 and 2.2 ecotec engines in Croma, 2.2 and 3.2 Holden blocks were used for Alfa Romeo- heavily modified with completely new cylinder heads.
Posted By: 1JZ_E46

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/03/18 03:15 PM

Originally Posted By: CleverUserName

Originally Posted By: edyvw

No, but he did do two UOA.


Yes I did two UOAs and also there is another series of UOAs from a 2014 Chevy Cruze using Amsoil Low Saps and Biosyn CJ-4 posted on here somewhere. They had similar wear numbers, however the Biosyn handled water and fuel contamination much better and there was no bearing wear, unlike the Amsoil which did have some soft metals detected in the UOA. Dealing with oil contamination seems to be one of the major strengths of the Biosyn formula.

Neither the Amsoil or the Biosyn are Dexos 2 certified. Just like Delvac ESP.


I just canít understand why youíd throw away a manufacturerís warranty because you have such an unwarranted distaste for C3 oils. Why risk paying for a DPF or something like that out of pocket? Those are expensive parts.
Posted By: edyvw

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/04/18 05:34 AM

Originally Posted By: chrisri
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Interesting topic. I've noticed few peculiarities.

Someone mentioned that a C3 oil in a SAE 5w30 grade will not offer same level of protection as a C3 5w40. That can't be right. Both oils meet the same spec, slight difference is in kinematic viscosity, purely cosmetic.

Someone mentioned that a 3.0 FPT built diesel does not exhibit same failures in EU- which is true, at least to my knowing. Same oil was specified on both markets.

There could be that either
Fuel in US and EU isn't same ULSF
Engines are not built in same factory/to the same standards/specifications
Trucks are not used in the same manner-seriously doubt that, and even so that is not an excuse.
Engine mapping for NA (to meet different emissions) is culprit for oil dilution with fuel- i would say engine have a weak bottom by design, and oil dilution isn't helping.

As for Opel diesels, all recent engines are FPT (Fiat Powertrain) derivatives, the JTD/Multijet, only 3.0 and 1.7 are Isuzu. 1.9 CDTI 8v/16v is identical to the Multijet. 2.0 is slightly different but still the same general design. Not sure for the 1.6, probably short stroke 2.0. All will do lot of kilometers on C3/Dexos2 oils.


Wait, OPEL used 2.0 multijet later in Insignia? I know they used 1.9CDTI. 2.0 and 1.6 if not directly sourced from FCA it is not derivative. OPEL/GM had some deal with FIAT regarding swapping engines in similar manner like with BMW when GM gave six speed auto tranny for 2.5 inline six diesel, but GM/OPEL never had any rights to continue development.

2.0 Opel version went through same modifications as the 2.0 Multijet for meeting Euro 5 emission standard. Bore was enlarged for 1mm, third generation common rail with higher pressure, new turbo/manifold, new DPF- now next to the engine.
GM still have engine research center in Turin, and rights to use and further develop 2.0 diesel engine. It was not part of a deal with PSA.
1.6 cdti is all alloy Opel design, has nothing in common with 1.6 jtdm, except the Combo, which is a rebaged Doblo using mjet.
1.3 cdti is FPT engine.

Those engines are/were used in everything GM had connection with, SAABs, Suzukis, Opels.
Fiat used 1.8 and 2.2 ecotec engines in Croma, 2.2 and 3.2 Holden blocks were used for Alfa Romeo- heavily modified with completely new cylinder heads.

OK I know all that when it comes to engine swap.
My question was that after GM and FIAT parted ways, whether GM kept modifying engines? or had to go with its own design.
Posted By: edyvw

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/04/18 05:38 AM

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted By: CleverUserName

Originally Posted By: edyvw

No, but he did do two UOA.


Yes I did two UOAs and also there is another series of UOAs from a 2014 Chevy Cruze using Amsoil Low Saps and Biosyn CJ-4 posted on here somewhere. They had similar wear numbers, however the Biosyn handled water and fuel contamination much better and there was no bearing wear, unlike the Amsoil which did have some soft metals detected in the UOA. Dealing with oil contamination seems to be one of the major strengths of the Biosyn formula.

Neither the Amsoil or the Biosyn are Dexos 2 certified. Just like Delvac ESP.


I just canít understand why youíd throw away a manufacturerís warranty because you have such an unwarranted distaste for C3 oils. Why risk paying for a DPF or something like that out of pocket? Those are expensive parts.

Based on his wear number I think once he moved to HDDO he gained at least 60hp, increased life of an engine by at least 100,000 miles and increased mpg by 3-4 smile
He actually took seriously my comment about two UOA.
Posted By: CleverUserName

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/04/18 07:19 AM

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46

I just canít understand why youíd throw away a manufacturerís warranty because you have such an unwarranted distaste for C3 oils. Why risk paying for a DPF or something like that out of pocket? Those are expensive parts.


I'm not worried about it. Also consider that I'm using an HVO as fuel, which isn't ULS D#2. So I'm probably voiding my warranty that way as well.

Sometimes if you want better results, one must take a risk and try something else.

Originally Posted By: edyvw

Based on his wear number I think once he moved to HDDO he gained at least 60hp, increased life of an engine by at least 100,000 miles and increased mpg by 3-4 smile
He actually took seriously my comment about two UOA.


Probably increased the engine and DOC lifespan. Lower wear and reduced oil volatility will do that.

However, I actually think the 40wt oils made me lose 1 MPG.

No, I don't take your deprecating comments seriously, nor do I seek anyone's approval. I'll continue to do UOAs, post them here and make changes as necessary. If the Biosyn results are equivalent or better than Delvac, I'll keep using it. If not, maybe try the Ravenol HDEO next.
Posted By: edyvw

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/04/18 08:00 AM

Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46

I just canít understand why youíd throw away a manufacturerís warranty because you have such an unwarranted distaste for C3 oils. Why risk paying for a DPF or something like that out of pocket? Those are expensive parts.


I'm not worried about it. Also consider that I'm using an HVO as fuel, which isn't ULS D#2. So I'm probably voiding my warranty that way as well.

Sometimes if you want better results, one must take a risk and try something else.

Originally Posted By: edyvw

Based on his wear number I think once he moved to HDDO he gained at least 60hp, increased life of an engine by at least 100,000 miles and increased mpg by 3-4 smile
He actually took seriously my comment about two UOA.


Probably increased the engine and DOC lifespan. Lower wear and reduced oil volatility will do that.

However, I actually think the 40wt oils made me lose 1 MPG.

No, I don't take your deprecating comments seriously, nor do I seek anyone's approval. I'll continue to do UOAs, post them here and make changes as necessary. If the Biosyn results are equivalent or better than Delvac, I'll keep using it. If not, maybe try the Ravenol HDEO next.

Problem is not do you take anyones recommendations or do you seek approvals. Problem is you are going from topic to topic and give "recommendations" based on your two UOA, because you know, engineers who designed engines as well as oils did not figured to send UO sample to Blackstone.
Posted By: Tikka

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/04/18 05:40 PM

This may make for interesting reading for those that have not come across it.

My OM642 has no DPF so hopefully be ok.

http://www.stephensservice.com/bluetec-diesel-issuesproblems/

Tikka.
Posted By: chrisri

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/04/18 05:52 PM

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Interesting topic. I've noticed few peculiarities.

Someone mentioned that a C3 oil in a SAE 5w30 grade will not offer same level of protection as a C3 5w40. That can't be right. Both oils meet the same spec, slight difference is in kinematic viscosity, purely cosmetic.

Someone mentioned that a 3.0 FPT built diesel does not exhibit same failures in EU- which is true, at least to my knowing. Same oil was specified on both markets.

There could be that either
Fuel in US and EU isn't same ULSF
Engines are not built in same factory/to the same standards/specifications
Trucks are not used in the same manner-seriously doubt that, and even so that is not an excuse.
Engine mapping for NA (to meet different emissions) is culprit for oil dilution with fuel- i would say engine have a weak bottom by design, and oil dilution isn't helping.

As for Opel diesels, all recent engines are FPT (Fiat Powertrain) derivatives, the JTD/Multijet, only 3.0 and 1.7 are Isuzu. 1.9 CDTI 8v/16v is identical to the Multijet. 2.0 is slightly different but still the same general design. Not sure for the 1.6, probably short stroke 2.0. All will do lot of kilometers on C3/Dexos2 oils.


Wait, OPEL used 2.0 multijet later in Insignia? I know they used 1.9CDTI. 2.0 and 1.6 if not directly sourced from FCA it is not derivative. OPEL/GM had some deal with FIAT regarding swapping engines in similar manner like with BMW when GM gave six speed auto tranny for 2.5 inline six diesel, but GM/OPEL never had any rights to continue development.

2.0 Opel version went through same modifications as the 2.0 Multijet for meeting Euro 5 emission standard. Bore was enlarged for 1mm, third generation common rail with higher pressure, new turbo/manifold, new DPF- now next to the engine.
GM still have engine research center in Turin, and rights to use and further develop 2.0 diesel engine. It was not part of a deal with PSA.
1.6 cdti is all alloy Opel design, has nothing in common with 1.6 jtdm, except the Combo, which is a rebaged Doblo using mjet.
1.3 cdti is FPT engine.

Those engines are/were used in everything GM had connection with, SAABs, Suzukis, Opels.
Fiat used 1.8 and 2.2 ecotec engines in Croma, 2.2 and 3.2 Holden blocks were used for Alfa Romeo- heavily modified with completely new cylinder heads.

OK I know all that when it comes to engine swap.
My question was that after GM and FIAT parted ways, whether GM kept modifying engines? or had to go with its own design.

They've kept modifying the same engine.
Posted By: CleverUserName

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/04/18 10:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Tikka
This may make for interesting reading for those that have not come across it.

My OM642 has no DPF so hopefully be ok.

http://www.stephensservice.com/bluetec-diesel-issuesproblems/

Tikka.


Irony! Nice read. Keep using the low saps oil your manufacturer recommends!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX7wtNOkuHo

Posted By: edyvw

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/05/18 05:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Tikka
This may make for interesting reading for those that have not come across it.

My OM642 has no DPF so hopefully be ok.

http://www.stephensservice.com/bluetec-diesel-issuesproblems/

Tikka.

Government does not set NOACK, it is specific approval and it could be 15%.
If you do no have DPF, then that changes things dramatically. You could use in that case ACE A3/B3 B4 since DPF is not an issue. Much more options in that case.
Posted By: Tikka

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/05/18 10:58 PM

It seems to me that the guy writing the article is saying sacrifice your DPF in favour of the engine. Whilst expensive the DPF is cheaper than the engine. Not exactly ideal is it?

edyvw.
I am still trying to get my head around the meaning A3 B3 B4 etc. I have only begun to scratch the surface of lubricant knowledge smile
Posted By: Garak

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/06/18 01:20 AM

Originally Posted By: chrisri
Fuel in US and EU isn't same ULSF

whistle
Posted By: edyvw

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/06/18 05:12 AM

Originally Posted By: Tikka
It seems to me that the guy writing the article is saying sacrifice your DPF in favour of the engine. Whilst expensive the DPF is cheaper than the engine. Not exactly ideal is it?

edyvw.
I am still trying to get my head around the meaning A3 B3 B4 etc. I have only begun to scratch the surface of lubricant knowledge smile

Just use whatever it says in manual. If it is MB229.51, use oil that meets that specification. If it says MB229.31, then use again, MB229.51.
Posted By: CleverUserName

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/06/18 10:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Tikka
It seems to me that the guy writing the article is saying sacrifice your DPF in favour of the engine. Whilst expensive the DPF is cheaper than the engine. Not exactly ideal is it?

edyvw.
I am still trying to get my head around the meaning A3 B3 B4 etc. I have only begun to scratch the surface of lubricant knowledge smile


Yes, an engine is more critical and expensive to replace. Protecting the engine should be your priority.

Some DPFs still in good working order can be cleaned out using a detergent/solvent and hot water by professionals specializing in this service. Cleaning would require removal and re-installation labor but generally itís much cheaper than buying a new factory part.

Also consider, in an engine that is good working order without any significant oil usage, 95% of the ash generated during combustion comes from the fuel. So using an oil with slightly higher SA has a minuscule effect on the life of the DPF. You can also install a vapor recovery device to remove nearly all oil vapor from the combustion process and then itís no longer a factor.
Posted By: edyvw

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/07/18 06:57 AM

Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Originally Posted By: Tikka
It seems to me that the guy writing the article is saying sacrifice your DPF in favour of the engine. Whilst expensive the DPF is cheaper than the engine. Not exactly ideal is it?

edyvw.
I am still trying to get my head around the meaning A3 B3 B4 etc. I have only begun to scratch the surface of lubricant knowledge smile


Yes, an engine is more critical and expensive to replace. Protecting the engine should be your priority.

Some DPFs still in good working order can be cleaned out using a detergent/solvent and hot water by professionals specializing in this service. Cleaning would require removal and re-installation labor but generally itís much cheaper than buying a new factory part.

Also consider, in an engine that is good working order without any significant oil usage, 95% of the ash generated during combustion comes from the fuel. So using an oil with slightly higher SA has a minuscule effect on the life of the DPF. You can also install a vapor recovery device to remove nearly all oil vapor from the combustion process and then itís no longer a factor.


If you did not say it, would would believe that engine is not critical component and not expensive to replace.
I guess engineers of Mercedes did not think of that, [censored] it.
Posted By: Tikka

Re: Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please. - 06/09/18 11:13 AM

Thank you to everyone who has helped by adding to the thread. I appreciate it.
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