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Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based???

Posted By: Fred H.

Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/29/12 12:08 PM

I'd really like to know, because I'm paying nearly $6 a qt for what I believe is true PAO based synthetic. I use the 5w-30 in my car and the 15w-50 in my bike.

My feeling is that if Mobil One has changed over to a Group III oil, then I'll stop buying it, and look for a less expensive oil. I don't mind paying extra for Mobil One if it is indeed a PAO based oil, but if it isn't then I don't see why I should continue to pay extra for it.

Can anyone provide a definitive answer on what Mobil One uses for base stock, PAO or group III?
Posted By: simple_gifts

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/29/12 12:15 PM

Isn't performance more important than what it is made of
Posted By: bourne

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/29/12 12:20 PM

The answer to that is M1 is a blend of about 13 different types of base oils. Afaik, PAO and Esters are a part of that blend. I highly recommend the 0w30 weight M1 AFE if you are using 5w30 atm. Especially if warranty isnt a concern. Seems it has a higher percentage of PAO according to MSDS data.

Try searching, there recently have been a few discussions about M1 formulation and has some good feedback in those threads. Try google, " bobistheoilguy M1 PAO Formulation ". Should give you plenty of threads to read up on.
Posted By: bigjl

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/29/12 12:26 PM

I also thought it was PAO based, but read on here it isn't since a recent reformulation.

But as already mentioned it still meets the same specs.

Must admit I am trying a different oil on the wife's Clio next OCI as I have only ran ELF once and the rest were Mobil 1 I don't really know what difference it will make, going over to 5w40 or 10w40 from 0w40. Though Mobil 1 is still a good oil if it meets yours specs, I am just curious if there is fact in this rumour that some engines are noisier on Mobil 1, soon find out!
Posted By: Fred H.

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/29/12 12:43 PM

Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
Isn't performance more important than what it is made of


I don't want to get into a debate about performance or what oil is best. All I want to know is if Mobil One is still PAO based or not.
Posted By: JHZR2

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/29/12 12:47 PM

It is very short sighted to pick an oil because you demand that it have X basestock.

Especially if you cannot specifically quantify by UOA or other analytical result, why you need PAO, ester, etc.

The "value proposition" argument really just doesnt cut it.

I can appreciate that we all want the best value for our money, but utilizing one chemical basestock as that basis is just silly.

What performance aspect are you trying to maximize?
Posted By: Fred H.

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/29/12 01:07 PM

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
It is very short sighted to pick an oil because you demand that it have X basestock.

Especially if you cannot specifically quantify by UOA or other analytical result, why you need PAO, ester, etc.

The "value proposition" argument really just doesnt cut it.

I can appreciate that we all want the best value for our money, but utilizing one chemical basestock as that basis is just silly.

What performance aspect are you trying to maximize?


All I'm asking for is an answer to a very simple question. I'm not looking for everyones opinion on how I should choose an oil.

I just want to know if Mobil One is still made purley from PAO basestocks like it used to be in the past.
Posted By: Kuato

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/29/12 01:14 PM

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
It is very short sighted to pick an oil because you demand that it have X basestock.

Especially if you cannot specifically quantify by UOA or other analytical result, why you need PAO, ester, etc.

The "value proposition" argument really just doesnt cut it.

I can appreciate that we all want the best value for our money, but utilizing one chemical basestock as that basis is just silly.

What performance aspect are you trying to maximize?


I think a little respect is in order here, and deserved for the OP same as what you would demand for yourself.

An explanation is not owed, nor required. He simply wants to know about the formulation. It is not necessary to engage in The Inquisition to simply answer the question.
shrug
Posted By: tig1

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/29/12 01:15 PM

Pablo may know, but I doubt any oil is 100% PAO today. As for M1 M1, it's the best performing M1 oil I have used in the decades I have used their product. Blends of base stock actually provide a better lubricant than straight this or that.
Posted By: Trav

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/29/12 01:18 PM

I don't like to use Mobil 1 any longer and i was a huge fan of their 0w40. After reading this you can see why.

Quote:
What is the communication strategy?
 With the exception of Germany, this reformulation will be invisible to
consumers and B2B customers.
• Claims are identical with the exception of some now obsolete or soon to
be obsolete claims
• Performance of new formulations are equivalent to current formulations
 Testing is underway to provide read-across of current marketing
claims to new formulations
 Review will take place of current marketing literature to ensure
accuracy of specific claims to new formulations (e.g. if we quote
actual pour point values then this would need to be updated).
• There will be no proactive customer communication relating to this
reformulation. However, an internal briefing document and Q&A has
been prepared to allow sales to respond in the unlikely event of a
customer question.
 Due to the unique definition of synthetic in Germany (Synthetic = 100%
PAO) this reformulation is visible to the consumer and B2B customers.
• A more proactive communication is being prepared for German use


In other words we changed the formula and wont answer any questions about it.
Because the Germans have this law protecting them from shenanigans like this we need to spin a bald faced lie, put some smoke and mirrors up and come up with some half baked marketing scheme called SHC technology.
I could give rats rear if it performs the same or not, this company (they are not alone) is putting one over and are unethical as a bast...
I don't like to knowingly reward companies like this by giving them my $$$.

PU is PAO/GTL a true synthetic and priced almost the same.
I try to use it whenever possible and when their 0w40 becomes more available there will be no more Mobil 1 in my garage.
Personally i am liking Shell products more than ever.

This is the bottom line.
If i buy a gold watch and get a heavy gold plated stainless watch with the same movement instead some here on BITOG would say it makes no difference.
It keeps time with the same accuracy, it sure looks the same and because the plating is so thick it will never wear off so its the same or equal.
Okay fine but will you pay $1500 an ounce for it? And if you did would you just accept it or sue them for fraud?
Not saying folks should sue the oil company but you get the point.

hide
Posted By: Quattro Pete

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/29/12 01:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Fred H.
I just want to know if Mobil One is still made purley from PAO basestocks like it used to be in the past.

It is not. And it has never been. No oil out there is made purely from PAO.
Posted By: Gabe

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/29/12 01:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Fred H.

I just want to know if Mobil One is still made purley from PAO basestocks like it used to be in the past.


No. While Mobil 1 silver does contain PAO, it isn't the dominate basestock.

What everybody is trying to tell you is that it doesn't make a major difference.
Posted By: Quattro Pete

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/29/12 01:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Trav
PU is PAO/GTL a true synthetic and priced almost the same.
I try to use it whenever possible and when their 0w40 becomes more available there will be no more Mobil 1 in my garage.
Personally i am liking Shell products more than ever.

Except that when on sale (which is often), M1 0w-40 is actually less expensive than the comparable PU 5w-40.
Posted By: Fred H.

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/29/12 01:27 PM

What does PU stand for?
Posted By: RF Overlord

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/29/12 01:28 PM

What Trav said up there^^^. Exactly. Every word of it.

Originally Posted By: Trav
I don't like to knowingly reward companies like this by giving them my $$$.
This is precisely why I stopped using ExMo products some years ago. M1 may be the best oil on the planet, but it won't be in my crankcase again.
Posted By: ARCOgraphite

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/29/12 01:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Fred H.
I'd really like to know, because I'm paying nearly $6 a qt for what I believe is true PAO based synthetic. I use the 5w-30 in my car and the 15w-50 in my bike.

My feeling is that if Mobil One has changed over to a Group III oil, then I'll stop buying it, and look for a less expensive oil. I don't mind paying extra for Mobil One if it is indeed a PAO based oil, but if it isn't then I don't see why I should continue to pay extra for it.

Can anyone provide a definitive answer on what Mobil One uses for base stock, PAO or group III?
If you want primary PAO base you may wish to investigate Amsoil signature series but you will most likely pay a bit more for the performance increase - if you have the need for such a lubricant.
Posted By: Samilcar

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/29/12 01:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Fred H.
What does PU stand for?


PU=Pennzoil Ultra

As to the PAO content of Mobil 1, the best guess is that the regular Mobil 1 is mostly Group III, with PAO in the mix. The Extended Performance and High Mileage versions of Mobil 1 are mostly PAO with group III in the mix. Mobil 1 is not saying what percentages of the base oil is PAO, so these are just educated guesses.
Posted By: JAG

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/29/12 02:14 PM

It's ironic that this thread is going on at the same time as buster's thread which shows the PAO percentage of various M1 oils. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2786564#Post2786564
MSDS for viscosity grades not listed below can also be found.

PAO % in M1 from Japanese MSDSs
0W-20: 40-50
0W-30: 10-20
5W-30: 20-30

PAO is used largely to decrease volatility, Cold Cranking Visocosity, and cold Pumping Viscosity. Those are the three parameters that PAO definitely beats Group III and III+ in.

Alkylated napthalene and esters have potent effects in low doses when mixed with PAO and Group III, so it's unwise to not give their possible presence any possible credit.
Posted By: JHZR2

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/29/12 02:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Trav

If i buy a gold watch and get a heavy gold plated stainless watch with the same movement instead some here on BITOG would say it makes no difference.
It keeps time with the same accuracy, it sure looks the same and because the plating is so thick it will never wear off so its the same or equal.
Okay fine but will you pay $1500 an ounce for it? And if you did would you just accept it or sue them for fraud?
Not saying folks should sue the oil company but you get the point.

hide


The difference is that if the gold watch says 24kt gold, swiss made, and then it is plated and chinese, that is misrepresentation.

You can argue Grp III being or not being synthetic (hint - PAO gets its ethylene from the same cat crackers that Grp III gets its slack wax, its not some magical monomer feedstock from the gods that is used for PAO... just the same crude derived stuff), but there is no claim, even from the blenders that sell more "synthetic" (PAO/POE) fluids as to the specific ratios, quantities and types. But what we know is that the blenders that use majority PAO/POE have a price that is double Mobil 1. So when the OP wants to go for a "cheaper" oil, well, he already has it; and, when studied from UOA and other aspects, there is no compelling benefit to having that majority of any specific base stock.

Why? Because it is such a complex chemical mixture with so many things going into it, that no one component, even if magic basestock x is put in at high fractions, does all the heavy lifting and verifies the performance for most practical aspects, cold temperature flow perhaps aside.

Nope, its far more like saying that you want a meal and one chef uses the more expensive boutique ingredients for most everything, and the other chef only uses them for the few flavors that are the most critical, and both meals in the end sustain and taste very close to one another, but one is twice as expensive.
Posted By: JasonC

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/29/12 02:31 PM

I was under impression that Mobil 1's primary ingredient is virgin baby tears? Is that not so?
Posted By: aquariuscsm

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/29/12 02:38 PM

Do you buy it at Walmart? You can get both those weights in their 5 quart jugs really cheap. It`s $22 a jug here where I live.
Posted By: aquariuscsm

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/29/12 02:40 PM

MJ from Exxon told me the 15W50 is pao/ester based with no grp III.
Posted By: JHZR2

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/29/12 03:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Kuato
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
It is very short sighted to pick an oil because you demand that it have X basestock.

Especially if you cannot specifically quantify by UOA or other analytical result, why you need PAO, ester, etc.

The "value proposition" argument really just doesnt cut it.

I can appreciate that we all want the best value for our money, but utilizing one chemical basestock as that basis is just silly.

What performance aspect are you trying to maximize?


I think a little respect is in order here, and deserved for the OP same as what you would demand for yourself.

An explanation is not owed, nor required. He simply wants to know about the formulation. It is not necessary to engage in The Inquisition to simply answer the question.
shrug


There is no disrespect intended - just rational basis for the discussion at hand; this question comes up even as often as a few times a week in very similar forms. A cursory look at older threads would dig up the same request and discussion over and over again.

See JAG's post just above. It references yet another thread discussing this.

If there is to be any semblance of learning or trading of rational and correct thought on here, it should include a discussion of the criteria that is of interest. Anytime that anyone uses the basis of "I want x, because I just have to have x", without basis, it is likely not optimal.

I invite the OP to procure some pure 11cSt PAO and put it in his engine, since it is so important. He wont like the result. That's not being rude or disrespectful, that is being realistic.
Posted By: LeakySeals

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/29/12 03:43 PM

Trav,
Whatever was leaked here is simply a company discussing how to market its product while protecting its proprietary brew. It may or may not be the final decision. It may or may not be people that know about oil at all. Maybe its the technical publication writers. Who knows what context this was in.

Fully disclosing what makes you different/special/unique is a huge mistake. I see no issue here. Its how all companies operate to keep a competitive edge.
Posted By: Quattro Pete

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/29/12 05:27 PM

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
I invite the OP to procure some pure 11cSt PAO and put it in his engine, since it is so important. He wont like the result. That's not being rude or disrespectful, that is being realistic.

Agreed. There is more to a good oil than just one particular ingredient. PAO alone is not the holy grail, as much as some members on here would like to believe so.
Posted By: Trav

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/29/12 10:08 PM

Quote:
There is more to a good oil than just one particular ingredient. PAO alone is not the holy grail

True but its funny that every inferior base stock is compared to it isn't it.
Fact is it is a superior base stock to GP III comparing apples to apples as far as the add pack goes.
Same add pack in both and PAO will out perform the GP III.

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
The difference is that if the gold watch says 24kt gold, swiss made, and then it is plated and chinese, that is misrepresentation.

You can argue Grp III being or not being synthetic (hint - PAO gets its ethylene from the same cat crackers that Grp III gets its slack wax


Take a 90's Breitling 18K and SS, the gold was a wrap (thicker than a plating)on the bracelet links. Some resellers advertise 18K and SS which is blatantly false.
The later models were pure 18K links not 18K wrapped SS.
Both were Breitling Swiss made with the same 7750 base movement.

If PAO gets comes from the same cat crackers as GP III then why was there a PAO shortage and no shortage of GP III?
If it were that simple it doesn't seem right that PAO would be in short supply according to Mobil.
Quote:
To support Mobil 1 growth
• Global PAO capacity is limited. As we quickly approach this limit

I don't know, just asking.

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Whatever was leaked here is simply a company discussing how to market its product while protecting its proprietary brew

Sorry Leaky i disagree on this point. The document clearly show how they were planing to produce bald faced lies (strong language i know but its a fact, call a spade a spade) ) to a particular market segment and how to hide documentation about the product from anyone who asked questions.
Shell has no problem telling people their Ultra GPIV/GTL

This is my own personal feelings on this subject. Its about honesty and integrity not just performance.
I'm not interesting in getting into an argument over this as its my opinion. the OP said..
Quote:
My feeling is that if Mobil One has changed over to a Group III oil, then I'll stop buying it, and look for a less expensive oil. I don't mind paying extra for Mobil One if it is indeed a PAO based oil, but if it isn't then I don't see why I should continue to pay extra for it.


That is a position i agree 100% with.
Posted By: Clevy

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/29/12 10:28 PM

This is one of the reasons I just don't like mobil 1 as a whole. That leaked document shows that they are prepared to say whatever they have to(in the unlikely event of that type of question)to anyone with any particular question ad to their basestocks.
I keep reading that performance is what matters,not the basestock. Well in the case of the 0w-40 their new formulation doesn't perform as well as the previous formulation,even though it meets the same specs.
In the case of the advanced fuel economy the elevated % of pao is why it saves fuel,so if it was formulated differently would the end result be the same.
I'm not prepared to spend anymore money on mobil products. Their high price no longer reflects the stuff in the bottle.
And in tigs examples,I wonder if he used any synthetic oil at 10000 mile drains would he get the same clean engine. Probably.
I think I'm going to stick with sopus and liqui-moly,and royal purple whenever it comes on sale. That mobil vs rp thread when the poster provided pics of a mobil cam with half the mileage of an rp cam,and the wear scar on the mobil cam sold me on that their products are average,yet their genius marketing team had many convinced it's the greatest stuff on earth. I'm not convinced.
I am going to buy a couple of cases of the new Mazda oil though. That stuff looks perfect for my stash to help thin all the thick I have.
So op. Yes mobil 1 only has a couple oils left with any pao left,up to you to decide if you want to support them.
Posted By: tig1

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/30/12 01:29 AM

Ah! M1, the oil followers love to bash! horse
Posted By: aquariuscsm

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/30/12 01:34 AM

I`d still use RP if I could get it at the $6 a quart like I used to *and* if they still had the Synerlec oils readily available otc.
Posted By: JHZR2

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/30/12 04:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Clevy

I'm not prepared to spend anymore money on mobil products. Their high price no longer reflects the stuff in the bottle.


So show me a high PAO content oil that sells at the same price as M1. The last M1 I bought was $25.49 for 5 quarts.

Do please show me how M1 is so expensive per quart compared to high PAO oils. And I paid what I stated without coupons or rebates, so please keep it apples to apples.
Posted By: Trav

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/30/12 06:51 AM

Quote:
So show me a high PAO content oil that sells at the same price as M1

PU $28 5 qts at wally's 100% PAO/GTL base stock. Confirmed by Pennzoil to a forum member here just a couple of weeks ago.
I don't know about you but for $2.50 more I'll take the real deal.
Posted By: Boatowner

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/30/12 03:07 PM

Wow, a lot of really useless responses to a really simple question. That happens a lot here, like the ones who know no better than to say "Read the owner's manual." when someone asks how to do something better or best.

Okay, so UOAs say Group III oils give really good protection against iron wear, etc. Still, aren't there other considerations on how well an oil is protecting my engine? For example, ability to dissipate heat and ability to protect the turbo. Sometimes these things won't show up in a used oil analysis.

If OP and I foolishly wish to buy oils that are mainly PAO and ester based don't we have that right and don't we have some kind of right to accurate information so we can make our foolish choices?

For me, I look to other considerations like flash point and cold temp flow point in addition to price to help me decide on an oil. Then I change my oil excessively early so it doesn't matter quite so much. Yep, foolish, but then I do a lot of foolish things, like eat too much.
Posted By: JHZR2

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/30/12 03:56 PM

Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
So show me a high PAO content oil that sells at the same price as M1

PU $28 5 qts at wally's 100% PAO/GTL base stock. Confirmed by Pennzoil to a forum member here just a couple of weeks ago.
I don't know about you but for $2.50 more I'll take the real deal.


And what is GTL basestock?

The GTL base oil is a “really great quality [API] Group III synthetic base stock,” Mark Ferner, Shell’s U.S. Lubricants Group manager, told a media briefing here July 14.

http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article002169298.cfm?x=b11,0,w

See, not saying that PAO is bad or that you dont want it... Im saying you have to have a little knowledge and not paint with too broad a brush. "I just wont buy an oil with Grp III because it is _______ (cheaper, inferior, bad value, etc)" may limit opportunity to have an optimal oil at an optimal price point with the best of all aspects.
Posted By: JHZR2

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/30/12 04:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Boatowner
Wow, a lot of really useless responses to a really simple question. That happens a lot here, like the ones who know no better than to say "Read the owner's manual." when someone asks how to do something better or best.

Okay, so UOAs say Group III oils give really good protection against iron wear, etc. Still, aren't there other considerations on how well an oil is protecting my engine? For example, ability to dissipate heat and ability to protect the turbo. Sometimes these things won't show up in a used oil analysis.

If OP and I foolishly wish to buy oils that are mainly PAO and ester based don't we have that right and don't we have some kind of right to accurate information so we can make our foolish choices?

For me, I look to other considerations like flash point and cold temp flow point in addition to price to help me decide on an oil. Then I change my oil excessively early so it doesn't matter quite so much. Yep, foolish, but then I do a lot of foolish things, like eat too much.


These things dont show up? SO youre saying that we dont measure oxidation, viscosity change, flashpoint, etc?

More than one means to an end... Im no Grp III, nor PAO apologist. Im for making a true informed decision not based upon some self-proclaimed value proposition that doesnt really exist, for an application that doesnt necessarily really need it, nor will it see a benefit over the unit's lifecycle.

Look at the work that RI_RS4 did on what is arguably one of the most aggressive designed engines? Yep, it wasnt PAO, in fact, the standard PAO/POE and similar oils didnt stand up in his studies compared to specialty basestocks used there.

Again, broad brush.

Can you get sufficient protection with a proper blend of basestocks, not relying on 100% PAO? yes. No wonder BMW runs these oils in aggressively power dense and high oil-temperature prone N54/55 engines as an example. Doesnt Ferarri use XVHI basestocks in the helix ultra oils that they recommend???

Again, trying to have max fraction of PAO "just because" is shortsighted. Far from everyone has an application and an OCI where it is critical... And if you want/need it, youre paying Amsoil/Redline/RP prices, NOT M1 prices. Nothing wrong with wanting PAO, POE or whatever else... But have a real basis and understand why, and what the trades are.
Posted By: surfstar

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/30/12 04:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Fred H.
Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based?*??


[*ring, ring*]

Hello?

Oh, hi.
Its for you -- its the year 2000 and they'd like their thread back.
Posted By: Samilcar

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/30/12 04:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Boatowner
Wow, a lot of really useless responses to a really simple question.


???

The (too) simple question was, "Is Mobil 1 a PAO oil or a Group III oil?". The correct answer, as given multiple times in this thread (and countless other threads), is... BOTH! Mobil 1 is a mixture of PAO and Group III base oils, with PAO content varying between 20% and 50% depending on what flavor of Mobil 1 that you choose.

If that answer is too "useless" for you to understand, then you really need to find a different forum.
Posted By: tig1

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/30/12 07:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Samilcar
Originally Posted By: Boatowner
Wow, a lot of really useless responses to a really simple question.


???

The (too) simple question was, "Is Mobil 1 a PAO oil or a Group III oil?". The correct answer, as given multiple times in this thread (and countless other threads), is... BOTH! Mobil 1 is a mixture of PAO and Group III base oils, with PAO content varying between 20% and 50% depending on what flavor of Mobil 1 that you choose.

If that answer is too "useless" for you to understand, then you really need to find a different forum.


Also esthers. M1 base stocks are a blend of several stocks equal to if not better than PAO alone. Here is a link.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1990677
Posted By: Boatowner

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/30/12 07:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Samilcar
Originally Posted By: Boatowner
Wow, a lot of really useless responses to a really simple question.


???

The (too) simple question was, "Is Mobil 1 a PAO oil or a Group III oil?". The correct answer, as given multiple times in this thread (and countless other threads), is... BOTH! Mobil 1 is a mixture of PAO and Group III base oils, with PAO content varying between 20% and 50% depending on what flavor of Mobil 1 that you choose.

If that answer is too "useless" for you to understand, then you really need to find a different forum.


The difference is, yours is an actual answer. No need to be a jerk about it.
Posted By: JHZR2

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/30/12 10:10 PM

Honestly there was no reason for that answer as the OP could have searched and found that having been stated about a million times...

So the other responses, aimed to foster learning, are actually the most valuable, if the OP cares to utilize the discussion.
Posted By: surfstar

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/30/12 10:32 PM

Oh wow, I just realized its listed under "Question of the Day" - hah! More like of the Decade.
Posted By: bullwinkle

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/30/12 10:35 PM

The answer is-not as much as it did before, but still "some"-the pour point of the 0W oils indicate more, but for more PAO, you're going to have to go Redline or Amsoil.
Posted By: JHZR2

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/30/12 11:55 PM

Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
The answer is-not as much as it did before, but still "some"-the pour point of the 0W oils indicate more, but for more PAO, you're going to have to go Redline or Amsoil.


Good answer. But the question still remains - how much reduced wear rate and how much more longevity can we quantify, even on higher performance vehicles?
Posted By: SaturnIonVue

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/31/12 06:40 AM

Whoa! Collective amnesia seems riff here. I suppose everyone has forgotten that about 5-8+ years or so back all the fuss on here was about what Castrol was doing by ditching PAO and switching to GpIII base-stock oils in their brew. Mobil took them to the shed (well, actually to the Advertising Council) over misuse of the term "synthetic oil" for using primarily? GpIII, instead of primarily? GpIV PAO and not telling anyone. As it was, the Ad Council decided against Mobil and ever since then, we've been off to the races trying to figure out who has put what base-stock into what oil! The PAO purists castigated Castrol for years and the die hards swore to never use their products in this life--ever again.

Now is seems we have gone full circle. Rarely is Castrol's orginal sin even mentioned and while it seems Mobil made the switch to GpIII, and crowed about "check the results!" "Its all about performance!" "Forget about PAO--here, drink this new and improved CoolAid!" It would seem that many people on here have drank a heavy draft of Mobil's CoolAid and accepted the big switch from them too. Nevertheless, I'm of the belief that PAO IS superior to GpIII as a base-stock product. Why? Because no one seems to know or care about what levels of impurities that may still be IN GpIII oils as apposed to what impurities were never IN PAO based oils to begin with. What made me switch to synthetic oil in the first place was that PAO was a "pure" engineered oil with none of the thousands of harmful species of molocules that were in mineral oils even after refining.

I switch between Mobil EP and Pennzoil Ultra so I'm stuck with whatever base-stock either producer wants to use. I'm strongly supportive of the OP's position(s) on the matters he has brought up, since like everyone else you have to drink the CoolAid they make because they are the big boys on the block. But that doesn't mean I have to like it! Apparently, big oil isn't so big in Germany that the German's can't make them fess up to what's in their products. Fat chance that will ever happen here!
Posted By: Clevy

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/31/12 06:57 AM

Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Samilcar
Originally Posted By: Boatowner
Wow, a lot of really useless responses to a really simple question.


???

The (too) simple question was, "Is Mobil 1 a PAO oil or a Group III oil?". The correct answer, as given multiple times in this thread (and countless other threads), is... BOTH! Mobil 1 is a mixture of PAO and Group III base oils, with PAO content varying between 20% and 50% depending on what flavor of Mobil 1 that you choose.

If that answer is too "useless" for you to understand, then you really need to find a different forum.


Also esthers. M1 base stocks are a blend of several stocks equal to if not better than PAO alone. Here is a link.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1990677

A link to a discussion on the marketing of their new oil that was never meant to be seen publicly but someone found a PowerPoint presentation so mobil couldn't deny it.
Great post
Posted By: JHZR2

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/31/12 12:53 PM

Originally Posted By: SaturnIonVue


of Mobil's CoolAid and accepted the big switch from them too. Nevertheless, I'm of the belief that PAO IS superior to GpIII as a base-stock product. Why? Because no one seems to know or care about what levels of impurities that may still be IN GpIII oils as apposed to what impurities were never IN PAO based oils to begin with. What made me switch to synthetic oil in the first place was that PAO was a "pure" engineered oil with none of the thousands of harmful species of molocules that were in mineral oils even after refining.



Show me which of those superioroity metrics really holds true over your OCI. Again, not trying to be a Grp III apologist, just saying, because if you arent pushing to the point where the PAO is being used in a useful way, why pay for a pure PAO oil? DOubt it will make any difference in an ion or vue or most cars.

As for the lack of knowing what impurities are in there, you must be joking. IR, GC and a few other techniques let us easily know the basis of chemical content, plus how much sulfur, aromatics and other things there would be in the basestock.
Posted By: SteveSRT8

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/31/12 03:02 PM

ZZZZzzz...

Are we hashing this out again?
Posted By: aquariuscsm

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/31/12 03:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
So show me a high PAO content oil that sells at the same price as M1

PU $28 5 qts at wally's 100% PAO/GTL base stock. Confirmed by Pennzoil to a forum member here just a couple of weeks ago.
I don't know about you but for $2.50 more I'll take the real deal.


I may be wrong,but I could swear I read in Pennzoil`s Q and A post here that they`d said Ultra was 100% grp III basestock.
Posted By: Quattro Pete

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/31/12 11:19 PM

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I may be wrong,but I could swear I read in Pennzoil`s Q and A post here that they`d said Ultra was 100% grp III basestock.

It once was, but the new API SN formulation with very low NOACK numbers isn't 100% group III.
Posted By: Clevy

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/31/12 11:36 PM

I thought platinum was the group 3 and ultra a group 4. Otherwise why even have the 2 different products.
Posted By: SaturnIonVue

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 11/01/12 01:46 AM

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: SaturnIonVue


of Mobil's CoolAid and accepted the big switch from them too. Nevertheless, I'm of the belief that PAO IS superior to GpIII as a base-stock product. Why? Because no one seems to know or care about what levels of impurities that may still be IN GpIII oils as apposed to what impurities were never IN PAO based oils to begin with. What made me switch to synthetic oil in the first place was that PAO was a "pure" engineered oil with none of the thousands of harmful species of molocules that were in mineral oils even after refining.



Show me which of those superioroity metrics really holds true over your OCI. Again, not trying to be a Grp III apologist, just saying, because if you arent pushing to the point where the PAO is being used in a useful way, why pay for a pure PAO oil? DOubt it will make any difference in an ion or vue or most cars.

As for the lack of knowing what impurities are in there, you must be joking. IR, GC and a few other techniques let us easily know the basis of chemical content, plus how much sulfur, aromatics and other things there would be in the basestock.


No, I'm not joking at all about my concerns of what may be left over in the GpIII process. I've never heard or read of discussions about what wax--slack, or otherwise, what aromatics or other nasties may be left in there. Probably you're right--OCI to OCI maybe it doesn't matter, but over many OCI's maybe it does. I bought into synthetic oil about 25+ years ago when synthetic and PAO were one and the same thing, and I have used nothing but "synthetics" since then. Just because the oil blenders changed their secret recipies of herbs and spices doesn't mean I have to accept or believe the switch was for MY personal benefit. I think we know that how PAO is/was produced precluded nasties out of the product, and I was then, and still I am convinced that PAO base-stock is a superior base-stock than is other groups of base-stock. I am of the generation post SB/SC grade oils--of the same era when you could not buy motor oil anywhere else but from a gas station! At the time, Pennsylvania crude oils dominated the market. What you got then was an improvement over SA and SB but for decades SC, amd SD, and maybe even SE had a witches brew of every nasty imaginable--and your crankcase and dipstick would prove it to you!

Today, occasionally a thread comes along about "is it true that Quaker State and Pennzoil sludged up engines once upon a time" and it seems that more often than not various ones will answer: "no, that is an old wives tale" when I know for a certainty that those and some other oils did sludge up even well kept engines!! So, for some younger car lovers on here the issue becomes a just a myth as the deniers (who may not have even been born then, let alone driving and caring for cars) make their comments of denial. My concerns about GpIII vs. GpIV synthetic oils has its apologist and deniers already. I don't think we have seen many or any true reports of GpIII synthetic oils doing what Quaker and Pennzoil oils did 30-40 or so years ago. Believe me, I'm all for progress, especially in the state of the art of motor oils--it's just that when a BIG Switch comes along from what has been defined "as the best" to "it's just as good" I have to wonder who benefits--me and you--or just "them."

However, now that I think about it, I don't really care for CoolAid very much anymore! smile
Posted By: surfstar

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 11/01/12 02:02 AM

horse

Am I the first to post the flogging? happy
Posted By: Quattro Pete

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 11/01/12 03:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Otherwise why even have the 2 different products.

Why does Castrol have Edge with SPT and Edge with Titanium?

Why does XOM have Mobil1 and Mobil1 EP?

Posted By: RTexasF

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 11/01/12 07:41 PM

The answer is.......NO ONE KNOWS. They never did know, they never will know and this same question will be asked at least another 500 times by next November 1. By the way, there still won't be an answer then either.
Posted By: LargeCarManX2

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 11/02/12 02:11 AM

What we do know is that Neo oil and Redline oils are mostly Ester oils and Mobil 1 and Amsoil are a combo of PAO's Group III's and some Esters for flavor blush
Posted By: Cujet

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 11/03/12 12:52 PM

Interestingly,

M1 continues to perform as expected, without coking turbo bearing areas, without creating deposits in troublesome engines and holding up well in extended drain intervals.
Posted By: MolaKule

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 11/03/12 06:39 PM

Quote:
The answer to that is M1 is a blend of about 13 different types of base oils.



Really? DO you have some documentation to share?
Posted By: tig1

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 11/04/12 01:09 AM

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
The answer to that is M1 is a blend of about 13 different types of base oils.



Really? DO you have some documentation to share?


In this video XM says up to 15 differant base stocks and additives. Scrool down to "not all synthetic oils are equal"



" at the 1:20 mark of the video.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Videos/Videos.aspx
Posted By: MolaKule

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 11/04/12 03:10 AM

He didn't say there are 15 different types of basestocks in Mobil 1.

I think he must be counting all of the components of the Performance Improvement (PI) additive package AND types of base stocks.

There are currently about 5 major API groupings of basestocks and within each major Grouping there could be subcategories of chemistry.

For example, under GroupV there could be subcategories of chemistry such as esters, alkylated naphthalenes, oil soluble PAG, polymerics such as butylenes, etc.

Under API GroupIV there is only PAO. Now we know that various viscosities of PAO's are mixed to arrive at a specific viscosity, but this is one type of base oil. You cannot count the various viscosities of one type of base oil and include those as different "types."

And then there is GroupIII which in my view (I know, I am a "purist" holdout) is not a synthetic, but has some performance properties equal to GroupIV synthetics.

We know from Mobil patents that these patents allow the use of GroupIII, IV, and V base oils for their "synthetic" line of oils.

Posted By: MolaKule

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 11/04/12 03:24 AM

Quote:
I think we know that how PAO is/was produced precluded nasties out of the product, and I was then, and still I am convinced that PAO base-stock is a superior base-stock than is other groups of base-stock.


I don't agree. The GroupV base stocks are generally superior but their cost is still high such that various types of basestocks have to be blended to keep the cost within the average consumers pocketbook, and still maintain performance.

I think you have to look at the global picture when it comes to formulated lubricants and examine the final performance of the formulated lubricant, and not worry too much about the basestock that is only half of the picture.

Additive technology is becoming advanced to the point that GroupII and II+ basestocks can almost have the same level of performance as Blends.
Posted By: Shannow

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 11/04/12 09:43 AM

I'm sort of agreeing with Trav back in the early pages.

Synthetic implies something, and not a performance level. The performance level was demonstrated only by the use of synthetics back in the day. Same days that Shell advertised their XHVI in an appropriate and honest manner.

The gold watch analogy is a good one...it's completely as functional (a performance measure), and goes one step further in being the same colour.
Posted By: SteveSRT8

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 11/04/12 11:43 AM

Originally Posted By: MolaKule

Additive technology is becoming advanced to the point that GroupII and II+ basestocks can almost have the same level of performance as Blends.


The important stuff. At least for any normal user.
Posted By: fpracha

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 11/04/12 08:40 PM

Originally Posted By: JAG
It's ironic that this thread is going on at the same time as buster's thread which shows the PAO percentage of various M1 oils. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2786564#Post2786564
MSDS for viscosity grades not listed below can also be found.

PAO % in M1 from Japanese MSDSs
0W-20: 40-50
0W-30: 10-20
5W-30: 20-30

PAO is used largely to decrease volatility, Cold Cranking Visocosity, and cold Pumping Viscosity. Those are the three parameters that PAO definitely beats Group III and III+ in.

Alkylated napthalene and esters have potent effects in low doses when mixed with PAO and Group III, so it's unwise to not give their possible presence any possible credit.
interesting point. What's the % of the Alkylated napthalenes in M1 oils?
And do any engine oils also contain alkyl benzenes ?
Or is it not appropriate type of base oil for engine oils?
Posted By: MolaKule

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 11/04/12 09:26 PM

Quote:
interesting point. What's the % of the Alkylated napthalenes in M1 oils?


No one knows exactly, but depending on the viscosity required and type of other base oils, many formulators use between 5% and 12%.


Quote:
And do any engine oils also contain alkyl benzenes ?


At one time AB's were widely used in Artic formulations and some Artic lubes may yet contain this component.
Posted By: Garak

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 11/05/12 07:13 AM

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
So show me a high PAO content oil that sells at the same price as M1. The last M1 I bought was $25.49 for 5 quarts.


Clevy's from Canada, so he's not going to get the M1 at that price, and RP and M1 EP and their ilk are a bit more.

@Trav: With Clevy and I both in Canada, PU is hard to find. I'd have an easier time getting Motul than I would PU, believe it or not.
Posted By: fpracha

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 11/06/12 04:20 AM

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
interesting point. What's the % of the Alkylated napthalenes in M1 oils?


No one knows exactly, but depending on the viscosity required and type of other base oils, many formulators use between 5% and 12%.


Quote:
And do any engine oils also contain alkyl benzenes ?

At one time AB's were widely used in Artic formulations and some Artic lubes may yet contain this component.

Thanks!
Any idea on the minimum/maximum % of the AB's in these formulations?

Would you say that AB's provide major improvements in both fuel economy and cold start performance (that is more than PAO's) ?
Posted By: vo_marz

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 11/17/12 09:25 PM

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
[quote]

Additive technology is becoming advanced to the point that GroupII and II+ basestocks can almost have the same level of performance as Blends.


For the average consumer, yes i do agree.

But My bike goes from cold to 7500RPM in like what, less than 2 minutes after turning the key?

Easy to see which oils have G3/3+ stuff inside because i see performance degration at 5-70% of the average lifetime for G4/5 based oils.

Hi rev/temps still make G3/3+ look like chew toys under current tech additive tech to me.
Posted By: rokwldr

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 07/21/14 09:41 PM

2006 GMC Canyon 75000 miles, 2004 GMC Envoy 45000 miles. F115 Yamaha outboard, and countless small engines. All of these run on M1 Of various weights and never a problem. So who realy [email protected]#$ing cares. Don't use it if you don't like it. I think it is a good product for the price. Every one of my oil checks at Blackstone came back perfect, I think that say's it all.
Posted By: Linctex

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 09/30/18 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by JHZR2

I invite the OP to procure some pure 11cSt PAO and put it in his engine, since it is so important. He wont like the result. That's not being rude or disrespectful, that is being realistic.



Hmmm.... I have access to some REALLY thin PAO (Castrol Brayco Micronic 889) I wonder what kind of oil pressure I would get?

:-D

It is almost like water (no good additives, either)
Posted By: alarmguy

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/17/18 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Originally Posted by Fred H.
I just want to know if Mobil One is still made purley from PAO basestocks like it used to be in the past.

It is not. And it has never been. No oil out there is made purely from PAO.


Oil from Germany? I think its law there.

What about USA Spectro? (though I do not see a claim of 100%)
https://spectro-oils.com/wp-content/techsheets/HD%20PLAT2050EngineLubricant.pdf
Posted By: alarmguy

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/17/18 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Fred H.
Originally Posted by simple_gifts
Isn't performance more important than what it is made of


I don't want to get into a debate about performance or what oil is best. All I want to know is if Mobil One is still PAO based or not.


BITOG ... no debate? ask a simple question? No such thing.

I read the threads too, Mobile 1 is not 100%, if it was it would be PROUDLY labeled as such. its all smoke, mirrors and marketing and also BITOG for those refusing to admit there is no proven oil that will reduce engine wear / (make an engine last longer) more then the other in the same API.
How long an engine lasts is up to the engineering of the engine, not some oil company marketing.

You would be just as good buying any SN oil and changing it on time.
Walmart Super Tech synthetic @ $3.00 a quart in a 5 quart jug and you good to go. or ... Walmart super techn conventional @ $2.00 a quart.
or

again, any oil that makes you happy in the proper API.
Posted By: MolaKule

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/18/18 01:04 AM

I am still wondering why you guys are even discussing this since the OP has not posted on BITOG since 10/29/12 01:27 PM?
Posted By: Marco620

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? - 10/18/18 06:06 AM

PAO flows well but is weak on polarity. Hunting for PAO is yesterdy and ester beats it hands down. I didnt know PUP was gp 4 w GTL so thank-you Trav! Think I will stick with Redline 0w20. Pours at -76, Flash at 450 and HTHS of 2.9 . I'm paying more but I'm getting more and not losing any sleep over a top of the line product. Its good enough for Bugatti cars and can be sold in Germany. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4817463/Bugatti_Veyron_$21k_oil_change
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