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Factors that can affect warming up time

Posted By: SlavaB

Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 04:59 AM

I've been thinking about what actually affects the warming up time of an engine and if type of oil can change it.
My observations in my 2 cars:
My Kia takes a good amount of time for the temp sensor to start moving, while my MB shows an increase within the first 2 mins or less.

The obvious differences are:
1. 5w30 in Kia vs european 5w40 (or 0w40 sometimes) in MB
2. MB has a turbo engine, Kia is not
Point #2 is questionable since for the first 2 mins of moving I'm literally just able to leave the underground parking lot at speeds 5-10 mph, so turbo does not kick in.

I'm guessing there're some other factors that I'm just not aware of. Will appreciate some inout and knowledge
Posted By: Silk

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 05:04 AM

The turbo is still turning, just not making boost.
Posted By: edyvw

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 05:23 AM

Originally Posted by SlavaB
I've been thinking about what actually affects the warming up time of an engine and if type of oil can change it.
My observations in my 2 cars:
My Kia takes a good amount of time for the temp sensor to start moving, while my MB shows an increase within the first 2 mins or less.

The obvious differences are:
1. 5w30 in Kia vs european 5w40 (or 0w40 sometimes) in MB
2. MB has a turbo engine, Kia is not
Point #2 is questionable since for the first 2 mins of moving I'm literally just able to leave the underground parking lot at speeds 5-10 mph, so turbo does not kick in.

I'm guessing there're some other factors that I'm just not aware of. Will appreciate some inout and knowledge

Turbo always works.
European engines generally warm up much faster than Asian, turbo or not. I had install block heater in my Toyota as it takes forever to warm up. VW reaches coolant operating temperature within first 3 miles while still in neighborhood.
Posted By: SlavaB

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 05:37 AM

edyvw I do agree with you, but at a lower RPM it’s just being moved by the gases, not producing any boost. So I doubt it has an impact, maybe just because the engine has a bit higher load? That’s actually why there’s a turbo and there’s a compressor for lower rpms
So I still wonder what exactly is so different about European engines that they warm up faster
Posted By: LvR

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 05:43 AM

Quality of the radiator bypass system during warmup
Quality and design of thermostat (read old mechanical with possibly bleed through hole constantly circulating through the radiator vs total shut-off ability of modern electronic thermostats)
Volume and type of block/head material to be heated
Volume and type of coolant

IMO oil will have close to zero effect on achieving normal operating temperature of the engine
Posted By: pitzel

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 05:44 AM

Lots of 'temperature sensors' are not exactly linear, but are often engineered around historical experience with avoiding complaints. Since everything's wired through an ECU these days, and just sent to a dash display module over CAN-bus, actual temperature readings can be mapped to indicator values in any way the manufacturer desires.

Overall "speed" of warming up can be a function of idle target RPM's, cooling system size, block size, etc.

A more viscous oil will have greater pumping losses, which will show up as heat. But obviously you wouldn't try to lubricate your engine with a high viscosity motor oil to decrease warm-up time as that simply wouldn't start in the winter.
Posted By: 69GTX

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 06:01 AM

There is only one thing you can do to speed the warmup. That is to get into the car as soon as possible (and safe to do so) and then drive in moderately for the first few miles. Ambient temp plays a critical role but you don't control that (though a block or space heater could substitute for a warmer amb temp).

It's basically engine RPMs. You'll warm up faster (and safely) at 1500-2200 rpms. Down around 5-10 mph the warmup will be a lot slower. And your engine's lubricated parts will stay in the corrosion zone for a longer period of time.
Posted By: user52165

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 06:24 AM

Calibration differences are a factor. Are you experiencing drivability issues during warm up or just concerned with how the gauge responds differently?

Pretty much a non issue. 5W-30 vs 5W-40 is not much of a factor.

pitzel nailed it, as did ctechbob below.

Posted By: ctechbob

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 06:27 AM

I'd say that judging warmup based on a gauge in today's cars is futile. The only way you'd get a true grasp on what is going on is logging the data from OBD2. Gauges these days are mostly just glorified idiot lights. I'd be willing to bet your warmup between the two cars is closer than you think. Most are designed to get up to operating temp as quick as possible to get the ECU into its 'emissions' map and out of 'cold start'.
Posted By: ZeeOSix

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by SlavaB
The obvious differences are:
1. 5w30 in Kia vs european 5w40 (or 0w40 sometimes) in MB.


You'd have to run different weight oils in the same car under the same warm-up running conditions to see if there's any noticable difference.

Comparing the warm-up times of two different vehicles doesn't prove anything about different oil viscosity on warm-up times.
Posted By: dogememe

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 06:34 AM

The obvious difference is two completely different cars. Duh
Posted By: demarpaint

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by SlavaB
The obvious differences are:
1. 5w30 in Kia vs european 5w40 (or 0w40 sometimes) in MB.


You'd have to run different weight oils in the same car under the same warm-up running conditions to see if there's any noticable difference.

Comparing the warm-up times of two different vehicles doesn't prove anything about different oil viscosity on warm-up times.

Exactly.
Posted By: Mad_Hatter

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by SlavaB
I've been thinking about what actually affects the warming up time of an engine and if type of oil can change it.
My observations in my 2 cars:
My Kia takes a good amount of time for the temp sensor to start moving, while my MB shows an increase within the first 2 mins or less.

The obvious differences are:
1. 5w30 in Kia vs european 5w40 (or 0w40 sometimes) in MB
2. MB has a turbo engine, Kia is not
Point #2 is questionable since for the first 2 mins of moving I'm literally just able to leave the underground parking lot at speeds 5-10 mph, so turbo does not kick in.

I'm guessing there're some other factors that I'm just not aware of. Will appreciate some inout and knowledge

I could be wrong here but I don't think changing the viscosity is going to have a dramatic effect on how fast your engine reaches operating temp. Since oil actually acts like a coolant, no matter what viscosity you run it will do the exact opposite (cool v. heat) of what you're trying to achieve.

My guess is the biggest impact on how fast your engines warming up is the ECU tuning for fuel/air. Car's run open loop rich at startup and once at temp go into closed loop. The faster your car (ECU) can get into closed loop the better it's fuel efficiency numbers will be and the cat starts working to reduce emissions. I suppose you could monkey around with the fuel/air tuning during open loop but there are some downsides to that like increased combustion chamber deposits, damage to the Cat (running TOO rich) and poor fuel economy for example.
Posted By: demarpaint

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by SlavaB
I've been thinking about what actually affects the warming up time of an engine and if type of oil can change it.
My observations in my 2 cars:
My Kia takes a good amount of time for the temp sensor to start moving, while my MB shows an increase within the first 2 mins or less.

The obvious differences are:
1. 5w30 in Kia vs european 5w40 (or 0w40 sometimes) in MB
2. MB has a turbo engine, Kia is not
Point #2 is questionable since for the first 2 mins of moving I'm literally just able to leave the underground parking lot at speeds 5-10 mph, so turbo does not kick in.

I'm guessing there're some other factors that I'm just not aware of. Will appreciate some inout and knowledge

I could be wrong here but I don't think changing the viscosity is going to have a dramatic effect on how fast your engine reaches operating temp. Since oil actually acts like a coolant, no matter what viscosity you run it will do the exact opposite (cool v. heat) of what you're trying to achieve.

My guess is the biggest impact on how fast your engines warming up is the ECU tuning for fuel/air. Car's run open loop rich at startup and once at temp go into closed loop. The faster your car (ECU) can get into closed loop the better it's fuel efficiency numbers will be and the cat starts working to reduce emissions. I suppose you could monkey around with the fuel/air tuning during open loop but there are some downsides to that like increased combustion chamber deposits, damage to the Cat (running TOO rich) and poor fuel economy for example.

Good points. You could also do what us old folks did back in the day, block off a section of the radiator and reduce airflow through it. That will get her to warm up faster. I did that with a few vintage 1960's cars I owned for the winter months. LOL
Posted By: Shannow

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter

I could be wrong here but I don't think changing the viscosity is going to have a dramatic effect on how fast your engine reaches operating temp. Since oil actually acts like a coolant, no matter what viscosity you run it will do the exact opposite (cool v. heat) of what you're trying to achieve.


No, you are wrong here...

The oil between the bearing surfaces carrries away heat, buit's heat that's generatedin the oilfilm itself...thicker,cooler oil,more RPMmeansmore heat,and faster warmup.
Posted By: AEHaas

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 09:43 AM

It depends on the location of the temperature sensor. It depends on whether the sensor is measuring the water or oil. Most sensors measure water temperature and it warms up within minutes of starting the engine. That is why you can get heat for defrosting and for the interior in winter. Water is kept on the hottest area of the block to get you heat ASAP.

Oil is usually measured in the sump and is more representative of the operating engine temperature. It takes 20 - 30 minutes for oil to come up to the normal operating temperature. The rate of engine wear and tear is highest during this period of time.

AEHaas
Posted By: billt460

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 10:01 AM

If it concerns you that much, why not just install a block heater of some type? It's not that expensive or difficult of an undertaking. They work well, and your engine will be somewhat warm as soon as it fires up. Regardless of the outside temperature. Not to mention your heater / defroster will start working almost immediately. They even have pads that attach to the bottom of the oil pan to pre heat the oil.

If I had a turbo equipped vehicle, and lived in a cold, temperate climate, I would certainly look into both.
Posted By: Shannow

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by AEHaas
Most sensors measure water temperature and it warms up within minutes of starting the engine. That is why you can get heat for defrosting and for the interior in winter. Water is kept on the hottest area of the block to get you heat ASAP.


No...the water is where the metals need to be cooled to maintain their integrity, whether that is strength or dimensional...those that don't need that don't have cooling jackets.

Water distribution within in an engine has (utterly) nothing with faster defrost times...the fact that there's heat...yep...but that heat during warmupis very dependent on viscous shear in the oil...many BITOGers will attest to my practice of accelerated warm-upbyholding2,000-2,500 RPM on the warmup phase.

The recto cranial inversion on this site to meet some imagined world view does my head in some days.
Posted By: edwardh1

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 12:00 PM

seems the Tstat bypass if any would help. Drill a 1/8 inch hole in the stat plate. like some oem stats. some aftermarket have no hole or wiggle valve piece.
or could be where is the temp sensor located in the engine?
my 94 Camry would put out heat 5 blocks away, other cars not.
Posted By: Srt20

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 12:22 PM

Does the MB have exhaust manifold cooling? My guess is it does. Thats why your coolant warms up much faster vs the other.

My 2.0T has coolant running through the exhaust manifold and it warms faster than any vehicle Ive ever owned or even driven.
Posted By: billt460

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by AEHaas
Most sensors measure water temperature and it warms up within minutes of starting the engine. That is why you can get heat for defrosting and for the interior in winter. AEHaas

That brings up another question. Newer vehicles get heat out of the vents much quicker than many of the older cars did. Even on the coldest of mornings. On both my 2015 Jeep, and 2018 Toyota, I will have noticeable heat coming out of the vents, within just a couple of minutes of starting a dead cold engine. Usually as soon as the engine drops out of high idle, and I back out, I can feel the heat.

Back in the 70's, it seemed you had to drive much longer and further before you started to get any heat. What did they change to accomplish this? The newer vehicles seem to produce noticeable heat long before the temperature gauge even moves.

Where on the older one's you would see the temperature gauge move well off "Cold", before you got ANY heat out of them. And I'm talking about when they were new. Not after 70,000 miles with a neglected cooling system, and a clogged up heater core.
Posted By: billt460

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by Srt20
Does the MB have exhaust manifold cooling? My guess is it does. Thats why your coolant warms up much faster vs the other. My 2.0T has coolant running through the exhaust manifold and it warms faster than any vehicle Ive ever owned or even driven.

Do you know if any non turbo engines have exhaust manifold cooling? Neither my Jeep or Toyota have turbos, and as I mentioned in my above post, they both produce heat unbelievably quickly from a dead cold start. (5.7 HEMI V-8 & 2.5 4-Cylinder).
Posted By: Pelican

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by LvR
Quality of the radiator bypass system during warmup
Quality and design of thermostat (read old mechanical with possibly bleed through hole constantly circulating through the radiator vs total shut-off ability of modern electronic thermostats)
Volume and type of block/head material to be heated
Volume and type of coolant
IMO oil will have close to zero effect on achieving normal operating temperature of the engine


I'm with you 100%
Posted By: Mad_Hatter

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter

I could be wrong here but I don't think changing the viscosity is going to have a dramatic effect on how fast your engine reaches operating temp. Since oil actually acts like a coolant, no matter what viscosity you run it will do the exact opposite (cool v. heat) of what you're trying to achieve.


No, you are wrong here...

The oil between the bearing surfaces carrries away heat, buit's heat that's generatedin the oilfilm itself...thicker,cooler oil,more RPMmeansmore heat,and faster warmup.

For starters I didn't say it (running a thicker oil) wouldn't have ANY effect, i said it wouldn't have a dramatic effect but maybe I'm wrong. What amount of time savings are you suggesting??..5, 10, 25%? Is it a meaningful savings?

Maybe some are willing to increase friction at the bearings (& loss of power due to a thicker oil) just to shave a few seconds off warm up..but not me. I'd just as soon give it a little throttle to get things warmed up faster.
Posted By: Lapham3

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 02:41 PM

I have always felt, with a good stat, that cold start warm up was mostly from fuel/air combustion and piston/cylinder wall friction-with oil temps added later. Our '72 Vega was our first with an aluminum block (w/iron heads) That rascal took a while to get the gauge moving and heater/defrost in cold Michigan/Colorado/Minnesota winters. And it also cooled off really quickly on shut down. I later read a bit about such with cast iron and aluminum.
Posted By: Mad_Hatter

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Lapham3
I have always felt, with a good stat, that cold start warm up was mostly from fuel/air combustion and piston/cylinder wall friction-with oil temps added later. Our '72 Vega was our first with an aluminum block (w/iron heads) That rascal took a while to get the gauge moving and heater/defrost in cold Michigan/Colorado/Minnesota winters. And it also cooled off really quickly on shut down. I later read a bit about such with cast iron and aluminum.

I can just imagine the sense of horror & helplessness (not knowing if frost bite will set in before you pull into work) of sitting in the cabin of one of those 0w16/20 engines waiting for what seems like forever, for the temp to come up.

Chalk up another W for team "thick", in the thin v. thick wars!😉

[Linked Image]


Posted By: ragtoplvr

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 03:07 PM

you want to warm up faster leave the heater off. Makes miles of difference in cold weather.

Rod
Posted By: PimTac

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 03:08 PM

Well, I run thin oil and my heater is putting out heat within a few blocks. Also the blue light signifying cold engine operation goes off. Granted that is not full operating temperature but a lot of this argument is grasping at straws.
Posted By: Ponchinizo

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 03:21 PM

I'm running 0W-20 and I'm at operating temp within 5 miles, checked using an OBDII reader. Operating temp meaning 176F coolant, which is when the Tstat opens. I imagine it takes another 5 or so for the oil to come up to a similar temp.

I think my relatively quick warmup is due to it being a 1.8 4cyl aluminum block. There's not a whole lot to heat up, only 1gal of oil and 1.5gal of coolant, so of course it warms up quick.

In real cold weather (0F and below) I have to block half the radiator or the coolant will never go above 160F, all the heat goes right into the cabin to thaw me out!
Posted By: DGXR

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 03:25 PM

I don't think cold thick oil will generate enough friction to speed the warmup process when you consider there are EXPLOSIONS taking place in the cylinders.
If cold oil IS generating that much friction, you have much more serious issues than worrying how quickly your engine reaches full temperature.

Also, low ambient temperature is the #1 cause of slow warmup laugh
Posted By: Patman

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 04:27 PM

I have a rather short drive to work (12 miles) and so when I drive the Corvette I make sure to use the paddle shifters and hold the rpm closer to 2000, because if I leave it in drive it always wants to be a couple of gears higher and keep the rpms closer to about 1200 or 1300. That makes a huge difference in the time it takes for my oil to get up to temperature, as well as it's peak too. For instance, if I leave it in drive it'll take about 8 miles before it gets the oil up to 190F, and then it won't go above that point. If I use the paddle shifters in manual mode and hold it in a lower gear, keeping the rpm at my desired range close to 2000, then the oil hits 190 after only about 4 or 5 miles and will reach about 210 shortly after that.

Unfortunately I can't do this in the Civic, so I'm pretty sure my oil isn't getting up to full temperature in that 12 mile drive in the winter.
Posted By: OilUzer

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 05:57 PM

One can argue that as a result of thicker oil warning up faster, it will also reduce engine wear since most wear happens during cold starts/operation. maybe the wear reduction is not that significant ... However I think that's one reason it's recommended to run the thickest oil that meets your W rating.
Posted By: PimTac

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by OilUzer
One can argue that as a result of thicker oil warning up faster, it will also reduce engine wear since most wear happens during cold starts/operation. maybe the wear reduction is not that significant ... However I think that's one reason it's recommended to run the thickest oil that meets your W rating.




You mean run a 5w or 10w instead of a 0w?
Posted By: OilUzer

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 06:09 PM

Yes, assuming you don't compromise the oil quality. lol
Posted By: PimTac

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 06:13 PM

So a 5w is thicker than a 0w? I’m having difficulty grasping this.
Posted By: OilUzer

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by PimTac
So a 5w is thicker than a 0w? I’m having difficulty grasping this.


5W will have higher viscosity (cSt) relative to a 0W at cold(er) temperatures ... Since we are talking about cold start/operation and before the oil has reached nominal operating temperatures.
Posted By: Mad_Hatter

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 06:32 PM

There are some obvious benefits (aside from your cabin heater pumping out warm air) to getting the engine up to operating temp as soon as possible..like reduced emissions for example. But I have to believe that BITOG isn't the only entity to contemplate such a question... like, maybe engine builders do/have? I mean, they obviously (have an interest in) would like to see the engine get out of running rich open loop as soon as possible. And if there was some practical way to accomplish this (warming the engine even faster) where the negatives don't outweigh the positives, we'd already see it in use in our engines wouldn't we???🤔
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by OilUzer
Originally Posted by PimTac
So a 5w is thicker than a 0w? I’m having difficulty grasping this.


5W will have higher viscosity (cSt) relative to a 0W at cold(er) temperatures ... Since we are talking about cold start/operation and before the oil has reached nominal operating temperatures.


Not always, it depends on what temperature you are looking at. M1 0w-40 is heavier than any GF-5 5w-30 at all temperatures much above where the W-rating is tested, at temperature at which very few people here will be starting their vehicle.
Posted By: PimTac

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 06:52 PM

I’ll just stick with what the owners manual says.

0w20.
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by OilUzer
One can argue that as a result of thicker oil warning up faster, it will also reduce engine wear since most wear happens during cold starts/operation. maybe the wear reduction is not that significant ... However I think that's one reason it's recommended to run the thickest oil that meets your W rating.


The reduction in wear as the engine warms is due to parts reaching the size they are supposed to be and the activation of heat-activated additives, not the viscosity. Thicker oil will initially shear more, thus creating more heat, but this thins it, so eventually it reaches a point where it is at the same shear rate as whatever you are comparing it to.

One of the reasons thinner oils are being chased by OEM's is that shearing that thicker oil causes more fuel to be burned, which impacts CAFE. Thus, if you can reduce fuel consumption during the warm-up cycle, you increase fuel mileage.

Not sure where the "recommend run the thickest oil that meets your W rating" is coming from? Are you perhaps thinking about VII dosing? In general, oils with a narrower visc spread have historically had a lower dose of VII, but that doesn't factor in base oil selection. You can make a pretty cheap Group II+ 5w-30 that will have more VII than a PAO-based 0w-40 for example, so its not exactly universal.
Posted By: OilUzer

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by OilUzer
Originally Posted by PimTac
So a 5w is thicker than a 0w? I’m having difficulty grasping this.


5W will have higher viscosity (cSt) relative to a 0W at cold(er) temperatures ... Since we are talking about cold start/operation and before the oil has reached nominal operating temperatures.


Not always, it depends on what temperature you are looking at. M1 0w-40 is heavier than any GF-5 5w-30 at all temperatures much above where the W-rating is tested, at temperature at which very few people here will be starting their vehicle.


I assume it depends on the oil family or a specific temperature or maybe x40 vs. x30 or the base oil can play a role ... Maybe it can't be generalized to include all oils and all "cold" temperatures ... however i recently compared the viscosity of several xW30 (x=0,5,10) in the same oil family and near freezing and the 10W's had higher viscosity that the 5W's and the 5W's had higher viscosity than the 0W's.
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by OilUzer
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by OilUzer
Originally Posted by PimTac
So a 5w is thicker than a 0w? I’m having difficulty grasping this.


5W will have higher viscosity (cSt) relative to a 0W at cold(er) temperatures ... Since we are talking about cold start/operation and before the oil has reached nominal operating temperatures.


Not always, it depends on what temperature you are looking at. M1 0w-40 is heavier than any GF-5 5w-30 at all temperatures much above where the W-rating is tested, at temperature at which very few people here will be starting their vehicle.


I assume it depends on the oil family or a specific temperature or maybe x40 vs. x30 or the base oil can play a role ... Maybe it can't be generalized to include all oils and all "cold" temperatures ... however i recently compared the viscosity of several xW30 (x=0,5,10) in the same oil family and near freezing and the 10W's had higher viscosity that the 5W's and the 5W's had higher viscosity than the 0W's.


Yes, it will depend on how the products are blended, but 0C isn't all that "cold" for any of those oils either, all will be quite fluid.

If we look at the Mobil 1 product family:

M1 AFE 0w-30:
100C visc: 10.9cP
40C: visc: 62.9cP
VI: 166

M1 ESP 0w-30:
100C visc: 12.0cP
40C visc: 63.0cP

M1 5w-30:
100C visc: 11.0cP
40C visc: 61.7cP
VI: 172

M1 EP 5w-30:
100C visc: 10.6cP
40C visc: 59.8cP
VI: 169

M1 10w-30:
100C visc: 10.1cP
40C visc: 63.2cP
VI: 146

Just using the calculated values:
[Linked Image]

The AFE 0w-30 is heavier than M1 5w-30 at 0C, whilst the ESP 0w-30 is thinner than everything (highest VI of the group).
Posted By: OilUzer

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by OilUzer
One can argue that as a result of thicker oil warning up faster, it will also reduce engine wear since most wear happens during cold starts/operation. maybe the wear reduction is not that significant ... However I think that's one reason it's recommended to run the thickest oil that meets your W rating.


The reduction in wear as the engine warms is due to parts reaching the size they are supposed to be and the activation of heat-activated additives, not the viscosity. Thicker oil will initially shear more, thus creating more heat, but this thins it, so eventually it reaches a point where it is at the same shear rate as whatever you are comparing it to.

One of the reasons thinner oils are being chased by OEM's is that shearing that thicker oil causes more fuel to be burned, which impacts CAFE. Thus, if you can reduce fuel consumption during the warm-up cycle, you increase fuel mileage.

Not sure where the "recommend run the thickest oil that meets your W rating" is coming from? Are you perhaps thinking about VII dosing? In general, oils with a narrower visc spread have historically had a lower dose of VII, but that doesn't factor in base oil selection. You can make a pretty cheap Group II+ 5w-30 that will have more VII than a PAO-based 0w-40 for example, so its not exactly universal.


Regarding "cheap" oil, that's why I said earlier:
"Yes, assuming you don't compromise the oil quality. lol".

I general and not bringing in the oil quality into the equation, the less the spread (xWy) meaning highest x that meets your W rating, the less plastic (vii/vm) in your oil.
If I'm not mistaken, there are some 10W30's out there with no vm. If 10W meets your cold temp rating, why use 0W? and your engine may/will warm-up faster ... But I'm bringing up the oil quality myself grin2
Posted By: PimTac

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 08:49 PM

In the end the oil has very little impact on engine warm up.
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by OilUzer


I general and not bringing in the oil quality into the equation, the less the spread (xWy) meaning highest x that meets your W rating, the less plastic (vii/vm) in your oil.
If I'm not mistaken, there are some 10W30's out there with no vm. If 10W meets your cold temp rating, why use 0W? and your engine may/will warm-up faster ... But I'm bringing up the oil quality myself grin2[



Yes, AMSOIL makes one. Typically though, manufacturers just appear to use cheaper bases for the narrower spreads. M1 EP 0w-20 for example is basically entirely PAO based, the 5w-20 isn't, because it isn't needed. So both probably have similar levels of VII treat, heck, the 0w-20 could actually be lower LOL
Posted By: ZeeOSix

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
I didn't say it (running a thicker oil) wouldn't have ANY effect, i said it wouldn't have a dramatic effect but maybe I'm wrong. What amount of time savings are you suggesting??..5, 10, 25%? Is it a meaningful savings?


If all factors were held constant in the same exact engine, then running thicker oil would cause the oil to warm-up slightly faster due to more heat generated by the shearing friction. There would have to be a big spread in oil viscosity to see a difference viscosity makes on the oil temp gauge.

Patman's example shows that engine RPM has more impact on oil warm-up time than oil viscosity does.
Posted By: Srt20

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by Srt20
Does the MB have exhaust manifold cooling? My guess is it does. Thats why your coolant warms up much faster vs the other. My 2.0T has coolant running through the exhaust manifold and it warms faster than any vehicle Ive ever owned or even driven.

Do you know if any non turbo engines have exhaust manifold cooling? Neither my Jeep or Toyota have turbos, and as I mentioned in my above post, they both produce heat unbelievably quickly from a dead cold start. (5.7 HEMI V-8 & 2.5 4-Cylinder).


I really dont know. I am guessing probably not.
Posted By: aquariuscsm

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 10:15 PM

I’d think thin oils would warm up faster due to the nature of the density of the fluid,triggering the temp sensor at a faster rate. Thinking thicker oils could hold in the heat better? I may be completely wrong on this!
Posted By: ZeeOSix

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
I’d think thin oils would warm up faster due to the nature of the density of the fluid,triggering the temp sensor at a faster rate. Thinking thicker oils could hold in the heat better? I may be completely wrong on this!


Thicker oil has more shearing, which produces more heat. If there was no shearing heat at all produced, the oil temperature inside and flowing out of a journal bearing would never increase due to shearing.
Posted By: Mad_Hatter

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
I didn't say it (running a thicker oil) wouldn't have ANY effect, i said it wouldn't have a dramatic effect but maybe I'm wrong. What amount of time savings are you suggesting??..5, 10, 25%? Is it a meaningful savings?


If all factors were held constant in the same exact engine, then running thicker oil would cause the oil to warm-up slightly faster due to more heat generated by the shearing friction. There would have to be a big spread in oil viscosity to see a difference viscosity makes on the oil temp gauge.

Patman's example shows that engine RPM has more impact on oil warm-up time than oil viscosity does.

Agreed.. what I wasn't subscribing to was the notion that running a viscosity thick enough to elicit higher bearing temps, was going to impact engine temps in any meaningful way. Ambient temp, fuel/air mixture, rpms...are all going to have a more profound effect than a thicker oil in the crankcase. Heck, running straight coolant/no water (not something I'd do) would probably do more for accelerating the engine warm up process than a change in viscosity.
Posted By: ZeeOSix

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/21/19 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
I didn't say it (running a thicker oil) wouldn't have ANY effect, i said it wouldn't have a dramatic effect but maybe I'm wrong. What amount of time savings are you suggesting??..5, 10, 25%? Is it a meaningful savings?

If all factors were held constant in the same exact engine, then running thicker oil would cause the oil to warm-up slightly faster due to more heat generated by the shearing friction. There would have to be a big spread in oil viscosity to see a difference viscosity makes on the oil temp gauge.

Patman's example shows that engine RPM has more impact on oil warm-up time than oil viscosity does.

Agreed.. what I wasn't subscribing to was the notion that running a viscosity thick enough to elicit higher bearing temps, was going to impact engine temps in any meaningful way. Ambient temp, fuel/air mixture, rpms...are all going to have a more profound effect than a thicker oil in the crankcase. Heck, running straight coolant/no water (not something I'd do) would probably do more for accelerating the engine warm up process than a change in viscosity.


Yep ... keep in mind there's a huge difference between how coolant warms up vs how oil warms up.
Posted By: Mad_Hatter

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 01:24 AM

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
I didn't say it (running a thicker oil) wouldn't have ANY effect, i said it wouldn't have a dramatic effect but maybe I'm wrong. What amount of time savings are you suggesting??..5, 10, 25%? Is it a meaningful savings?

If all factors were held constant in the same exact engine, then running thicker oil would cause the oil to warm-up slightly faster due to more heat generated by the shearing friction. There would have to be a big spread in oil viscosity to see a difference viscosity makes on the oil temp gauge.

Patman's example shows that engine RPM has more impact on oil warm-up time than oil viscosity does.

Agreed.. what I wasn't subscribing to was the notion that running a viscosity thick enough to elicit higher bearing temps, was going to impact engine temps in any meaningful way. Ambient temp, fuel/air mixture, rpms...are all going to have a more profound effect than a thicker oil in the crankcase. Heck, running straight coolant/no water (not something I'd do) would probably do more for accelerating the engine warm up process than a change in viscosity.


Yep ... keep in mind there's a huge difference between how coolant warms up vs how oil warms up.

Right, I get that. But the less efficient the coolant is (by decreasing water%) the more heat retained in the engine, no? Seems to me running a 70/30 in the winter (or even an 80/20) would allow the engine to warm up faster?? (how much & whether it's meaningful is beyond me)...Admittedly I haven't thought though any potential downsides to doing this because as I said, it's not something I personally would ever consider doing.
Posted By: Bryanccfshr

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 02:02 AM

Ambient temperatures, all things being equal the cold temperature that the engine reaches influences the warm up time the most,
Posted By: Shannow

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter

I could be wrong here but I don't think changing the viscosity is going to have a dramatic effect on how fast your engine reaches operating temp. Since oil actually acts like a coolant, no matter what viscosity you run it will do the exact opposite (cool v. heat) of what you're trying to achieve.


No, you are wrong here...

The oil between the bearing surfaces carrries away heat, buit's heat that's generatedin the oilfilm itself...thicker,cooler oil,more RPMmeansmore heat,and faster warmup.

For starters I didn't say it (running a thicker oil) wouldn't have ANY effect, i said it wouldn't have a dramatic effect but maybe I'm wrong. What amount of time savings are you suggesting??..5, 10, 25%? Is it a meaningful savings?

Maybe some are willing to increase friction at the bearings (& loss of power due to a thicker oil) just to shave a few seconds off warm up..but not me. I'd just as soon give it a little throttle to get things warmed up faster.


You stated that the oil was a coolant...I countered that with what ACTUALLY happens.

Oh, and it's not the "little more throttle", as the heat is related to RPM, not power output.
Posted By: Shannow

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by DGXR
I don't think cold thick oil will generate enough friction to speed the warmup process when you consider there are EXPLOSIONS taking place in the cylinders.
If cold oil IS generating that much friction, you have much more serious issues than worrying how quickly your engine reaches full temperature.

Also, low ambient temperature is the #1 cause of slow warmup laugh


not thinking is a serious issue these days...

The majority of the heat in the oilis heat generated by the oilitself undergoing shear...not the number of (non)explosions taking place in the cylinder...yes, the (non)explosions make the motive power, but the friction generates most of the heat...

Here's a chart of bearing temperature rise with the engine simply being cranked (zero (non)expolosions)

[Linked Image]

Here's another couple...showing that the friction due to the oilis highest when the oil iscold and thickest.

[Linked Image]

and one showing that RPM is far more effective than load for increasing oil temperature.
[Linked Image]
Posted By: billt460

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by Shannow
The majority of the heat in the oilis heat generated by the oilitself undergoing shear...not the number of (non)explosions taking place in the cylinder...yes, the (non)explosions make the motive power, but the friction generates most of the heat...

Honest question here. Where I now live is about a 3 mile drive into town..... All downhill. I could literally pull out of my driveway, get the vehicle up to 30 MPH, shift into neutral and not have to touch the gas again until I got to the stoplight at the bottom. (I say that because I've done it in my truck).

When I drive this the car warms up very little. (Both the oil temp gauge, and the coolant temp barely come up at all). If I were to drive the same distance on level ground, the gauges would show considerably warmer engine and oil temp.

So I can't help but think operating the engine under a load will increase oil and coolant temperature much faster. After all you're burning more fuel doing it. That fuel is going to generate heat as it's consumed. That heat is going to be transferred into the oil and the coolant flowing through the engine. Am I right?
Posted By: Shannow

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 10:28 AM

bill, the engine in your ecample dropsto idle...the lowest RPM,and lowest load that the engine is capable of doing.

My Caprice with the L67, I could drive the same 6 mile stretch of highway,once in D, the other in "2"...exactly the same road load,wind drag etc...the "2" made 40F more temperature.
Posted By: billt460

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by Shannow
My Caprice with the L67, I could drive the same 6 mile stretch of highway,once in D, the other in "2"...exactly the same road load,wind drag etc...the "2" made 40F more temperature.

I can buy that. But in "2" it will also be revving higher over the same stretch, and consuming a lot more fuel in the process. How do you isolate one from the other? I buy the whole, "more load = more friction = more heat", deal. But how do you know it's mostly coming from the friction, and not fuel consumption as well? They both go hand in hand.
Posted By: Shannow

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by Shannow
My Caprice with the L67, I could drive the same 6 mile stretch of highway,once in D, the other in "2"...exactly the same road load,wind drag etc...the "2" made 40F more temperature.

I can buy that. But in "2" it will also be revving higher over the same stretch, and consuming a lot more fuel in the process. How do you isolate one from the other? I buy the whole, "more load = more friction = more heat", deal. But how do you know it's mostly coming from the friction, and not fuel consumption as well? They both go hand in hand.


See below...

with engine torque at 10Nm, and 1,000RPM versus 3,000RPM, the difference in oil temperature/warmup is marked.
with same enginespeed, the diffference between 10Nm and 60Nm is little.

So yes, there's more power in the 3,000RPM example, 3 times as much...but in the 60Nm case, there's 6 times as much power, and not a great deal of difference in warmup rate..

[Linked Image]

In my Caprice example, the oil temperature was 40F ABOVE the coolant temperature.

Patman's example above, was at my recommendation ages ago, and quite a few others are holding lower gears in town to get tempsup for when they hit the on ramp.

Edit...and between figures 6 and 7...
Fig 6, at 800 seconds in, the temperature is about 100C. Dimensionless power is 3,000x10 = 30,000
Fig 7, at 800 seconds in, the temperature is about 90-95C. Dimensionless power is 2,000x60= 120,000

So 4 times more power delivers less energy to the oil..
Posted By: Mad_Hatter

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Shannow

You stated that the oil was a coolant...I countered that with what ACTUALLY happens.- this is the 2nd time you've attributed something to me that I didn't say. What I said was, "oil acts like a coolant" and not, "oil is a coolant". It's weird because while the coolant and radiator fulfill the principle role of keeping my engine cool, the oil in my engine also picks up heat as it passes through the engine and let's it go into the atmosphere via the oil cooler. Your oil doesn't function similarly?

Oh, and it's not the "little more throttle", as the heat is related to RPM, not power output. - weird..in my car, whenever I give the engine gas the rpms go up...how does it work in your car?

Posted By: Shannow

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by Shannow

You stated that the oil was a coolant...I countered that with what ACTUALLY happens.- this is the 2nd time you've attributed something to me that I didn't say. What I said was, "oil acts like a coolant" and not, "oil is a coolant". It's weird because while the coolant and radiator fulfill the principle role of keeping my engine cool, the oil in my engine also picks up heat as it passes through the engine and let's it go into the atmosphere via the oil cooler. Your oil doesn't function similarly?

Oh, and it's not the "little more throttle", as the heat is related to RPM, not power output. - weird..in my car, whenever I give the engine gas the rpms go up...how does it work in your car?



OK, I am typing very very very slowly now...

The majority of the heat that the oil transfers to the atmosphere is generated within the oil...not "picked up"... in fact the bearings transfer heat INTO the block to be "picked up" by the collant...

Look at the charts, and my previous posts...typing in red doesn't makeyou more understandable, or change what you said.
Posted By: ka9mnx

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 11:35 AM

If you understand oil shear, you understand oil is heated by rpm's. Not load.
Posted By: Mad_Hatter

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Shannow

OK, I am typing very very very slowly now...

The majority of the heat that the oil transfers to the atmosphere is generated within the oil...not "picked up"... in fact the bearings transfer heat INTO the block to be "picked up" by the collant...

Look at the charts, and my previous posts...typing in red doesn't makeyou more understandable, or change what you said.

But I like to do it.. especially now that I know it irritates you. Your proclivity for dropping unwarranted & non-additive smart arse remarks (see example below) in your replies, especially makes me want to type in red.😂. this is something I've noticed in many many of your replies over time. Seems you're simply incapable of replying without coming off like a...😉

What did "DGXR" say to warrant your remark?🤔
Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by DGXR
I don't think cold thick oil will generate enough friction to speed the warmup process when you consider there are EXPLOSIONS taking place in the cylinders.
If cold oil IS generating that much friction, you have much more serious issues than worrying how quickly your engine reaches full temperature.

Also, low ambient temperature is the #1 cause of slow warmup laugh


not thinking is a serious issue these days...
Posted By: Brian553

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by Shannow
My Caprice with the L67, I could drive the same 6 mile stretch of highway,once in D, the other in "2"...exactly the same road load,wind drag etc...the "2" made 40F more temperature.

I can buy that. But in "2" it will also be revving higher over the same stretch, and consuming a lot more fuel in the process. How do you isolate one from the other? I buy the whole, "more load = more friction = more heat", deal. But how do you know it's mostly coming from the friction, and not fuel consumption as well? They both go hand in hand.


See below...

with engine torque at 10Nm, and 1,000RPM versus 3,000RPM, the difference in oil temperature/warmup is marked.
with same enginespeed, the diffference between 10Nm and 60Nm is little.

So yes, there's more power in the 3,000RPM example, 3 times as much...but in the 60Nm case, there's 6 times as much power, and not a great deal of difference in warmup rate..

[Linked Image]

In my Caprice example, the oil temperature was 40F ABOVE the coolant temperature.

Patman's example above, was at my recommendation ages ago, and quite a few others are holding lower gears in town to get tempsup for when they hit the on ramp.

Edit...and between figures 6 and 7...
Fig 6, at 800 seconds in, the temperature is about 100C. Dimensionless power is 3,000x10 = 30,000
Fig 7, at 800 seconds in, the temperature is about 90-95C. Dimensionless power is 2,000x60= 120,000

So 4 times more power delivers less energy to the oil..



Hey Shannow, in figure 6, was this test conducted with no explosions (or (non)explosions [?]) in the cylinders of the engine? I ask to help me divorce their influence from this discussion. Just wanna say, I feel like this is a stupid question on my part because the oil temp from the thermocouple reads it capping out around 100C, and I would expect that an engine cant be spun by an external drive off the crank to raise the oil temp to those levels, but then again, hah, I'm not a lubrication engineer. I wanna know!
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
weird..in my car, whenever I give the engine gas the rpms go up...how does it work in your car?


If you were driving a stick shift, you could divorce these two things from each other. For example, you could drop two gears, dramatically increasing the engine RPM while maintaining the same road speed, but load and thus throttle opening should remain roughly the same.

Conversely, you, pulling a trailer, can hold the throttle wide-open on a grade without downshifting and maintain or even lose engine RPM, despite load now being at max.

As Shannow's testing demonstrates, RPM, independent of change in load, has the biggest impact on oil temperature.
Posted By: OilUzer

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
weird..in my car, whenever I give the engine gas the rpms go up...how does it work in your car?


If you were driving a stick shift, you could divorce these two things from each other. For example, you could drop two gears, dramatically increasing the engine RPM while maintaining the same road speed, but load and thus throttle opening should remain roughly the same.

Conversely, you, pulling a trailer, can hold the throttle wide-open on a grade without downshifting and maintain or even lose engine RPM, despite load now being at max.

As Shannow's testing demonstrates, RPM, independent of change in load, has the biggest impact on oil temperature.


Good explanation!
Posted By: OilUzer

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by Shannow


not thinking is a serious issue these days...

The majority of the heat in the oilis heat generated by the oilitself undergoing shear...not the number of (non)explosions taking place in the cylinder...yes, the (non)explosions make the motive power, but the friction generates most of the heat...

Here's a chart of bearing temperature rise with the engine simply being cranked (zero (non)expolosions)

[Linked Image]

Here's another couple...showing that the friction due to the oilis highest when the oil iscold and thickest.

[Linked Image]

and one showing that RPM is far more effective than load for increasing oil temperature.
[Linked Image]




Nice graphs!

Interesting that in one case, just cranking by itself increases the temp from -65F to -35F.

Do you have any similar graphs showing the impact of oil viscosity on the temperature rise?
Just curious how significant the impact is.
Posted By: 69GTX

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 07:26 PM

The only things WE can reasonably control from day to day w/o being race car engineers is ambient temp or rpms. You can choose when you go outside to start your car....or turn on a block heater. You might decide it's just too darn cold to start the car until hours later. You can adjust rpms as you desire. Other than these, you live with your other choices from OCI to OCI. No one is making continual fuel/air adjustments or other fractional changes day to day to coincide with ambient temperature....though your car's engine control computer could be doing this automatically for you. In any case, you don't control it.
Posted By: ZeeOSix

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 07:32 PM

More engine load (combustion explosions) will also contributed some input heat to the oil because oil is not 100% thermally isolated from very hot piston and cylinder wall surfaces that oil comes into contact with.

Engine design will determine how much combustion heat the oil will absorb. Engines with piston cooling jets will pick up more combustion heat than an engine without piston cooling jets. Engine cooling systems aren't very effective in cooling the oil, and that's why most high performance engines have a dedicated oil cooler (oil to air, or oil to coolant heat exchangers).
Posted By: Mad_Hatter

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
weird..in my car, whenever I give the engine gas the rpms go up...how does it work in your car?


If you were driving a stick shift, you could divorce these two things from each other. For example, you could drop two gears, dramatically increasing the engine RPM while maintaining the same road speed, but load and thus throttle opening should remain roughly the same.

Conversely, you, pulling a trailer, can hold the throttle wide-open on a grade without downshifting and maintain or even lose engine RPM, despite load now being at max.

As Shannow's testing demonstrates, RPM, independent of change in load, has the biggest impact on oil temperature.

Ok, that's great.. downshifting a manual gearbox raises rpms independent of throttle, i can't argue with that and admittedly I overlooked that ..but a) I don't have a manual tranny so that's not an option and b) how are you going to raise rpms in your manual gearbox since you're sitting in the driveway waiting for the engine to come up to temp?.. and c) haven't we strayed (courtesy of Shannow) just a wee bit from the OP's original question into the esoteric? The ORIGINAL question was, what, if anything, can be done to accelerate the warming up process... and NOT once the engines at operating temp, what things can effect oil temps. Now maybe the OP meant to include not just sitting in the driveway but also while moving right after startup. I construed the question to be the former and not the latter.... and those would be two different discussions. In the former, original question by the OP, I mused that a change in viscosity will have little to no impact on the overall time needed for the engine to get to operating temp... and i (still) stand by that statement...that it has little to no effect in a passenger vehicle.

Originally Posted by SlavaB
I've been thinking about what actually affects the warming up time of an engine and if type of oil can change it.


Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 07:58 PM

Well, if you look at what the ECM does, it elevates RPM to:

A) get oil to where it needs to be as quickly as possible
B) get the oil warmed as quickly as possible
C) get the cats fired-off as quickly as possible
Posted By: PimTac

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 08:02 PM

Shannow offered examples to help answer the question which is not a simple one. Overkill just mentioned how the computer knows the engine is cold and adjusts everything to warm it up quickly.

The original question is being answered.
Posted By: Mad_Hatter

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Well, if you look at what the ECM does, it elevates RPM to:

A) get oil to where it needs to be as quickly as possible
B) get the oil warmed as quickly as possible
C) get the cats fired-off as quickly as possible

But the OPs asking what HE can do to impact warm up, not what does the ECU do to manage the warm up process. Two entirely different things/discussions. But to your point, I did say in a prior post, that if one could alter the tuning you could effect the time to warm up. But is that practical for a passenger car owner? (again, we're veering away from the original question and practical solutions into the realm of the esoteric and specialty)
Posted By: Mad_Hatter

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by PimTac

The original question is being answered.

The original question is not what does the ECU do to manage warm up. If that's a discussion you want to have, great.. let's have it. But the original question as I understood it (maybe I misunderstood the question..if so, plz enlighten me on what I missed), is what can an individual do to accelerate warm up...not what is the ECU doing during warm up.
Posted By: ka9mnx

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
But the OPs asking what HE can do to impact warm up, not what does the ECU do to manage the warm up process. Two entirely different things/discussions. But to your point, I did say in a prior post, that if one could alter the tuning you could effect the time to warm up. But is that practical for a passenger car owner? (again, we're veering away from the original question and practical solutions into the realm of the esoteric and specialty)

Block heater...
Posted By: PimTac

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by PimTac

The original question is being answered.

The original question is not what does the ECU do to manage warm up. If that's a discussion you want to have, great.. let's have it. But the original question as I understood it (maybe I misunderstood the question..if so, plz enlighten me on what I missed), is what can an individual do to accelerate warm up...not what is the ECU doing during warm up.




That was answered on the first page. Drive the vehicle.
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Well, if you look at what the ECM does, it elevates RPM to:

A) get oil to where it needs to be as quickly as possible
B) get the oil warmed as quickly as possible
C) get the cats fired-off as quickly as possible

But the OPs asking what HE can do to impact warm up, not what does the ECU do to manage the warm up process. Two entirely different things/discussions. But to your point, I did say in a prior post, that if one could alter the tuning you could effect the time to warm up. But is that practical for a passenger car owner? (again, we're veering away from the original question and practical solutions into the realm of the esoteric and specialty)


Most auto's have manual mode, so he could artificially keep engine RPM elevated via that mechanism if offered, assuming we are talking about driving. I'd say the ECM does a pretty good job of that by itself though, so this isn't something that really needs any user intervention.
Posted By: 4WD

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 08:23 PM

Active grill shutters and electric fans on my GM 5.3L’s
Posted By: M56959

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 08:23 PM

Please keep discussion on topic.
Posted By: 4WD

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 08:31 PM

Not sure what is off topic but certainly personal attacks in this thread

When you RE to the OP instead of who is out of line, who knows ?
Posted By: ZeeOSix

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by PimTac

The original question is being answered.

The original question is not what does the ECU do to manage warm up. If that's a discussion you want to have, great.. let's have it. But the original question as I understood it (maybe I misunderstood the question..if so, plz enlighten me on what I missed), is what can an individual do to accelerate warm up...not what is the ECU doing during warm up.


He can sit in the car and hold the revs to 2000 RPM for 5 minutes, or drive easy in a lower gear for a few miles if possible - that will help warm-up the engine and oil faster.
Posted By: Mad_Hatter

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix

He can sit in the car and hold the RPM to 2000 RPM for 5 minutes, or drive easy in a lower gear for a few miles if possible - that will help warm-up the engine and oil faster.

And that's what I suggested..I suggested giving the engine a little gas during warm up would have a more profound effect v. using a thicker lube...but then somehow we got off into a discussion of throttle not being rpms, temps at bearings curves, coasting in lower gears blah blah blah. Oy vey...
Posted By: 4WD

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 09:11 PM

Not just HP anymore … my 2018 5.3L has an oil cooler and piston jets … my 2010 5.3L did not.

The 2018 has the electric fans and shutters I mentioned
Neither had oil temp gauges … but the 2018 “warms up” faster on 0w20 than the 2010 on 15w40 …
so without oil temp plots we micrometer a brick.
Posted By: Mad_Hatter

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by 4WD
Not sure what is off topic but certainly personal attacks in this thread

When you RE to the OP instead of who is out of line, who knows ?

Probably me and my pointing out something, which will go unreferenced, about a certain somebody.

No reason to lock the thread as that line of comments is done for as far as I'm concerned.
Posted By: Mad_Hatter

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by 4WD
Not just HP anymore … my 2018 5.3L has an oil cooler and piston jets … my 2010 5.3L did not.

The 2018 has the electric fans and shutters I mentioned
Neither had oil temp gauges … but the 2018 “warms up” faster on 0w20 than the 2010 on 15w40 …
so without oil temp plots we micrometer a brick.

Because NASCAR bodies have very few openings on the front for aerodynamics, they rely on the oil as an integral part of the cooling "system" - system being the keyword. While the pressurized water system (yes H20, not coolant) is tasked with being the principle way to keeping the engine running cool, oil helps in this. They use huge oil coolers connected to an aux sump with ducted airflow, to not just lubricate metal parts but to help cool (heat xfer) the engine and oil. Now pcmo's aren't really tasked with having to perform this function like they are within an 800hp, 8k rpm engine with operating oil temps of around 280°.
Posted By: PimTac

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix

He can sit in the car and hold the RPM to 2000 RPM for 5 minutes, or drive easy in a lower gear for a few miles if possible - that will help warm-up the engine and oil faster.

And that's what I suggested..I suggested giving the engine a little gas during warm up would have a more profound effect v. using a thicker lube...but then somehow we got off into a discussion of throttle not being rpms, temps at bearings curves, coasting in lower gears blah blah blah. Oy vey...




And I believe, as already stated before, that the computer will do that if the ambient temperature is low. All engines have a fast idle mode. If the temps are really cold then that mode will be longer in duration. Furthermore, engines run richer at a cold start. The computer is doing a lot of things to get the engine warmed up as quickly as possible. That is all part of the efficiency standards these days.

The computer technology has advanced in cars just like it has in laptops and smartphones. They know if it’s snowing or icy out. They know if you are going up or downhill. They know if you are on a windy road. Some of this helps with driving ability and some of it keeps the engine at the optimal operation. I think trying to outguess the computer is futile for the most part
Posted By: Mad_Hatter

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix

He can sit in the car and hold the RPM to 2000 RPM for 5 minutes, or drive easy in a lower gear for a few miles if possible - that will help warm-up the engine and oil faster.

And that's what I suggested..I suggested giving the engine a little gas during warm up would have a more profound effect v. using a thicker lube...but then somehow we got off into a discussion of throttle not being rpms, temps at bearings curves, coasting in lower gears blah blah blah. Oy vey...




And I believe, as already stated before, that the computer will do that if the ambient temperature is low. All engines have a fast idle mode. If the temps are really cold then that mode will be longer in duration. Furthermore, engines run richer at a cold start. The computer is doing a lot of things to get the engine warmed up as quickly as possible. That is all part of the efficiency standards these days.

The computer technology has advanced in cars just like it has in laptops and smartphones. They know if it’s snowing or icy out. They know if you are going up or downhill. They know if you are on a windy road. Some of this helps with driving ability and some of it keeps the engine at the optimal operation. I think trying to outguess the computer is futile for the most part

Very good points and agree wholeheartedly.👍
Posted By: Shannow

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by PimTac

The original question is being answered.

The original question is not what does the ECU do to manage warm up. If that's a discussion you want to have, great.. let's have it. But the original question as I understood it (maybe I misunderstood the question..if so, plz enlighten me on what I missed), is what can an individual do to accelerate warm up...not what is the ECU doing during warm up.


Like I said...and Patman has demonstrated based on my previous advice...hold a lower gear while you traverse town...bbhero has domenstrated it as well.

As to suggesting that I took the thread off the reservation...I was responding to errors of fact that others have already planted...

Interested in your lengthy observation of my behaviours - since May - who were you before May ?
Posted By: OilReport99

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by Shannow
- since May - who were you before May?


How's the BITOG's length of membership relevant to this thread? Or, simply put, how is it relevant to the knowledge on any topic, including oil? Has it ever occurred to you that most relevant tribologists, engineers, et. al., don't spend a [censored] minute on this site?
Posted By: Mad_Hatter

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by Shannow

Interested in your lengthy observation of my behaviours - since May - who were you before May ?

Oh here we go...let me put on my tinfoil hat for this one.😂..has it crossed your mind that maybe, just maybe, I've perused your old(er) posts in the forum? Nah, it couldn't be that... let's go with the imma' former member conspiracy, it's much more exciting!😂
Posted By: Mad_Hatter

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by OilReport99
Has it ever occurred to you that most relevant tribologists, engineers, et. al., don't spend a [censored] minute on this site?

Exactly!... and neither are many master mechanics for that matter, they're simply too busy...but shade tree tribologists and mechanics (like myself 😂) are aplenty on BITOG!😉
Posted By: OilReport99

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by OilReport99
Has it ever occurred to you that most relevant tribologists, engineers, et. al., don't spend a [censored] minute on this site?

Exactly!... and neither are many master mechanics for that matter, they're simply too busy...but shade tree tribologists and mechanics (like myself 😂) are aplenty on BITOG!😉


And bums like me... LOL
Posted By: Mad_Hatter

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/22/19 11:52 PM

Ditto..👍
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/23/19 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by 4WD
Active grill shutters and electric fans on my GM 5.3L’s


Yep, have those on the RAM. The grille shutters make a huge difference.
Posted By: 4WD

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/23/19 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by OilReport99
Has it ever occurred to you that most relevant tribologists, engineers, et. al., don't spend a [censored] minute on this site?

Exactly!... and neither are many master mechanics for that matter, they're simply too busy...but shade tree tribologists and mechanics (like myself 😂) are aplenty on BITOG!😉


MolaKule is a Tribologist’s Tribologist
Shannow is an Engineer’s Engineer
Trav is a Master Mechanics Master as is Chris (Clinebarger)
DNewton is one guru of a statistician
Astro14 brings the CAVU here
Overkill IMO is a moderator who debates, but not locks
We know who the filter guru is and so on

Just to name a few … and, oh, hate to see BrocL is hardly on the site anymore … but plenty other sharp engineers and technicians and people who work in many interesting fields …

Folks will always disagree. One might get angry.
But we should all wait a while, cool off, reflect, before the response
Posted By: mbacfp

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/23/19 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by 4WD
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by OilReport99
Has it ever occurred to you that most relevant tribologists, engineers, et. al., don't spend a [censored] minute on this site?

Exactly!... and neither are many master mechanics for that matter, they're simply too busy...but shade tree tribologists and mechanics (like myself 😂) are aplenty on BITOG!😉


MolaKule is a Tribologist’s Tribologist
Shannow is an Engineer’s Engineer
Trav is a Master Mechanics Master as is Chris (Clinebarger)
DNewton is one guru of a statistician
Astro14 brings the CAVU here
Overkill IMO is a moderator who debates, but not locks
We know who the filter guru is and so on

Just to name a few … and, oh, hate to see BrocL is hardly on the site anymore … but plenty other sharp engineers and technicians and people who work in many interesting fields …

Folks will always disagree. One might get angry.
But we should all wait a while, cool off, reflect, before the response




I concur cheers
Posted By: aquariuscsm

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/23/19 12:59 AM

People around here cover their grill with cardboard during the winter laugh
Posted By: SlavaB

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/23/19 07:58 AM

Thanks everyone for the input. I’ve been moving to a new condo and couldn’t really reply to folks here, but I def haven’t expected to see that much of an input. Appreciate all the info on the thread.
Posted By: OilUzer

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/25/19 07:34 AM

I mentioned earlier that a thicker oil will result in a quicker engine warm up. Assuming that in general a 10W has a higher viscosity than a 5W or a 0W at colder temps. I know we can find exceptions here and there between different oils or different family ... Even in the graphs that @OVERKILL posted, near freezing one of the 0W's has 442 cSt vs. 615 cSt for the 10W. Thats a %39 increase in viscosity at that temp. The viscosity gap will be even wider at colder temps (e.g. below freezing).

Anyways, I cornered my chemist co-worker today and he said that more viscous oils cause faster bearing temperature increases, etc. ... As far as warm up time differences between a 0W, 5W or 10W he agreed that a more viscous oil will result in quicker warm up but couldn't recall the exact impact. Maybe the impact is not that significant ... idk. but I got him curious enough to do some research. lol
I'll post if I hear back.
Posted By: userfriendly

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 10/25/19 08:39 AM

My observations: RPM makes the oil heat up. I know that because the oil pressure goes down. 15W40 takes longer to warm up than SAE 40 of the same KV100C.
It takes horsepower to drive the water temperature up.
That is why locomotives in the self-warm-up phase will load the generator and dissipate the electricity out the dynamic brake grids.
Revving those engines up from 250 RPM to 1050 RPM changes the coolant temperature very little.
Posted By: KlooksKleek

Re: Factors that can affect warming up time - 11/09/19 10:52 PM

"My Kia takes a good amount of time for the temp sensor to start moving, while my MB shows an increase within the first 2 mins or less."

You can't compare the temp gauge of one maker vs. the temp gauge of another maker, UNLESS both gauges are marked with concrete values such as 120, 180, etc. Otherwise, how do you know what gauge A, which might be marked in small segments, means in relation to gauge B, which uses a needle?

Plus, gauges may be calibrated a little conservatively, or a little optimistically. There's probably only a very broad guideline in which they all operate.





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