What oil properties prevent stuck rings? Is it more detergents or a wear issues, antioxidants, something else?
Stuck Rings
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Most likely cleaning agents (calcium, boron) and good base stocks that resist heat induced hardening and varnish deposits. Synthetic oils (yes even group III) will make this very unlikely.
Modern conventional oil in SN and SN+ ratings are mildly synthetic anyway and should excel in this area as well.
Modern conventional oil in SN and SN+ ratings are mildly synthetic anyway and should excel in this area as well.
Keeping rings free from the get go is a function of the engine design, the OCI and the general level of the engine's up-keep. These days oil is good enough so that just about any oil within the specc'ed grade will deliver similar service as Tig1's preferred brand. The main thing with oil brand loyalty is you dont waste time comparison shopping
For starters both fuel and oil can form coke. Coke is formed from extended exposure to high heat, typically +200c. For example, if you were to shut your engine down after an extended run there's a chance that residual oil in the combustion chamber would not survive the cool down and form coke. Leaky injectors seeping fuel into the combustion chamber after shutdown can also form coke. Having said that oils that exhibit high thermal stability better resist coking.
Low-alloy iron and copper can also stimulate coke
formation by catalysis.
Once formed carbonaceous deposits can be very tenacious and there's very little in the way of cleaning that an oil alone can do to remove carbon deposits (sludge, gum and varnish are not coke). It typically requires some form of solvent to loosen so it can either be swept away and filtered or exhausted. But you have to be careful because if a big chunk of carbon breaks free it can get stuck between the rings and cylinder wall or at the valve/valve seat. A large enough piece in the oil could even block an oil passageway.
Low-alloy iron and copper can also stimulate coke
formation by catalysis.
Once formed carbonaceous deposits can be very tenacious and there's very little in the way of cleaning that an oil alone can do to remove carbon deposits (sludge, gum and varnish are not coke). It typically requires some form of solvent to loosen so it can either be swept away and filtered or exhausted. But you have to be careful because if a big chunk of carbon breaks free it can get stuck between the rings and cylinder wall or at the valve/valve seat. A large enough piece in the oil could even block an oil passageway.
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I just posted a thread in fuel additive section the results of Redline sI-1 with before and after boroscoped. As for oil, I'm not sure that any oil will prevent it even high detergency ones. There constantly is a introduction of a dirty burning product, the best option is to run a detergent with that source, in my unprofesional opinion.
Thanks for all the great info. We just got our first Toyota 2 days ago. 2019 Highlander 3.5L V6. I looked at the jasper site to see what they have fixed and stuck rings seems to be about the only advertised change.
I found Castrol is advertising insane anti wear claims. I uploaded Valvoline to compare their claims. This engine is port AND direct injected. I was thinking about running Castrol EP in it but didnt know much about stick rings
I found Castrol is advertising insane anti wear claims. I uploaded Valvoline to compare their claims. This engine is port AND direct injected. I was thinking about running Castrol EP in it but didnt know much about stick rings
Originally Posted by andyd
Keeping rings free from the get go is a function of the engine design, the OCI and the general level of the engine's up-keep. These days oil is good enough so that just about any oil within the specc'ed grade will deliver similar service as Tig1's preferred brand. The main thing with oil brand loyalty is you dont waste time comparison shopping
That is simply not correct. Examples abound, and even a favored brand (Toyota) has serious issues with stuck rings. It's not just neglect anymore. It's that low tension piston rings get stuck more easily.
Keeping rings free from the get go is a function of the engine design, the OCI and the general level of the engine's up-keep. These days oil is good enough so that just about any oil within the specc'ed grade will deliver similar service as Tig1's preferred brand. The main thing with oil brand loyalty is you dont waste time comparison shopping
That is simply not correct. Examples abound, and even a favored brand (Toyota) has serious issues with stuck rings. It's not just neglect anymore. It's that low tension piston rings get stuck more easily.
I'm no expert.
My opinion is that using the called for oil (a qood quality oil that meets the vehicles specifications as set forth by the manufacturer)., a reasonable oil change interval, will protect your vehicle's engine.......until the rest of the vehicle falls apart around it.
As long as the systems are functioning as they should, you should be fine.
Modern vehicles run MUCH cleaner vs the older ones with carborators and chokes that could mess up easily.
The sensor/computer controlled engines (when functioning properly) have much less fuel dilution, running rich, too lean.....etc vs years past.
For this reason, the only reason you could expect your oil rings to stick.....and fail is if something went wrong......or some design flaw in the particular vehicle.
Of course, after saying all this stuff......it DOES come down to doing the routine maintenance stuff in a timely manor, using good quality parts and fluids.
My opinion is that using the called for oil (a qood quality oil that meets the vehicles specifications as set forth by the manufacturer)., a reasonable oil change interval, will protect your vehicle's engine.......until the rest of the vehicle falls apart around it.
As long as the systems are functioning as they should, you should be fine.
Modern vehicles run MUCH cleaner vs the older ones with carborators and chokes that could mess up easily.
The sensor/computer controlled engines (when functioning properly) have much less fuel dilution, running rich, too lean.....etc vs years past.
For this reason, the only reason you could expect your oil rings to stick.....and fail is if something went wrong......or some design flaw in the particular vehicle.
Of course, after saying all this stuff......it DOES come down to doing the routine maintenance stuff in a timely manor, using good quality parts and fluids.
Originally Posted by tig1
In 41 years using M1 oils at 10K OCIs none of my engines have had coked rings. ...
Perhaps you should give Ford at least as much credit as Mobil1. I don't hear of modern Fords with this problem as often as certain other brands. (Which is not to say someone won't cite exceptions ...)
In 41 years using M1 oils at 10K OCIs none of my engines have had coked rings. ...
Perhaps you should give Ford at least as much credit as Mobil1. I don't hear of modern Fords with this problem as often as certain other brands. (Which is not to say someone won't cite exceptions ...)
A lot depends on the owner/driver. If your driving routine is full of short trips then you might be part of the problem. Engines today run at low rpm. Take that Highlander out and give it a good run on a regular basis. Maintenance is another part of the puzzle.
I could envision a person who waits to change their oil or keeps forgetting about it and at the same time running a lot of short trips. Rings will coke up over time and like the boiled frog analogy you won't know there is a problem until it's too late.
I could envision a person who waits to change their oil or keeps forgetting about it and at the same time running a lot of short trips. Rings will coke up over time and like the boiled frog analogy you won't know there is a problem until it's too late.
The TEOST MHT-4 test is part of the certification testing for API or ILSAC, and it's about piston ring cleanliness. I've posted on the board recently links to data sheets from a company that actually publishes their MHT-4 test results. From that company, 0W20 leaves 3x as much deposit on the MHT-4 test as the 5W20 grade from the exact same line of oil. Does that mean a person shouldn't run 0W20? Not necessarily, but I seriously doubt that the comparison is unique to that company. They're a very old, well-respected company that makes high quality fluids.
Originally Posted by Cujet
Originally Posted by andyd
Keeping rings free from the get go is a function of the engine design, the OCI and the general level of the engine's up-keep. These days oil is good enough so that just about any oil within the specc'ed grade will deliver similar service as Tig1's preferred brand. The main thing with oil brand loyalty is you dont waste time comparison shopping
That is simply not correct. Examples abound, and even a favored brand (Toyota) has serious issues with stuck rings. It's not just neglect anymore. It's that low tension piston rings get stuck more easily.
I tend to agree, oil consumption, stuck rings, seems to be an issue right now and going forward with these low tension ring/direct injected vehicles. Have a friend who owns a German auto repair facility - he says the oil consumption and buildup of soot on the piston rings on engines he's tearing down are ridiculous...stuff he wouldn't normally see on engines that are lower in mileage. He thinks the high pressure injector is causing fuel to mix and burn with the oil on the walls and the result is carbon buildup on the rings. I don't know, but something seems to be going on...I've owned two direct injection vehicles now...they both have burned oil, the higher mileage one got worse and worse as it went.
Originally Posted by andyd
Keeping rings free from the get go is a function of the engine design, the OCI and the general level of the engine's up-keep. These days oil is good enough so that just about any oil within the specc'ed grade will deliver similar service as Tig1's preferred brand. The main thing with oil brand loyalty is you dont waste time comparison shopping
That is simply not correct. Examples abound, and even a favored brand (Toyota) has serious issues with stuck rings. It's not just neglect anymore. It's that low tension piston rings get stuck more easily.
I tend to agree, oil consumption, stuck rings, seems to be an issue right now and going forward with these low tension ring/direct injected vehicles. Have a friend who owns a German auto repair facility - he says the oil consumption and buildup of soot on the piston rings on engines he's tearing down are ridiculous...stuff he wouldn't normally see on engines that are lower in mileage. He thinks the high pressure injector is causing fuel to mix and burn with the oil on the walls and the result is carbon buildup on the rings. I don't know, but something seems to be going on...I've owned two direct injection vehicles now...they both have burned oil, the higher mileage one got worse and worse as it went.
Cujet did you miss this in my statement.?... is a function of the engine design... The tensile strength of a ring would qualify as an engine design issue.
Originally Posted by bulwnkl
The TEOST MHT-4 test is part of the certification testing for API or ILSAC, and it's about piston ring cleanliness. I've posted on the board recently links to data sheets from a company that actually publishes their MHT-4 test results. From that company, 0W20 leaves 3x as much deposit on the MHT-4 test as the 5W20 grade from the exact same line of oil. ...
As I understand, 0W-20 is exempted from that test that most thicker grades must pass. I'm not sure about 0W-16 or 0W-30.
The TEOST MHT-4 test is part of the certification testing for API or ILSAC, and it's about piston ring cleanliness. I've posted on the board recently links to data sheets from a company that actually publishes their MHT-4 test results. From that company, 0W20 leaves 3x as much deposit on the MHT-4 test as the 5W20 grade from the exact same line of oil. ...
As I understand, 0W-20 is exempted from that test that most thicker grades must pass. I'm not sure about 0W-16 or 0W-30.
Originally Posted by Railrust
Originally Posted by Cujet
Originally Posted by andyd
Keeping rings free from the get go is a function of the engine design, the OCI and the general level of the engine's up-keep. These days oil is good enough so that just about any oil within the specc'ed grade will deliver similar service as Tig1's preferred brand. The main thing with oil brand loyalty is you dont waste time comparison shopping
That is simply not correct. Examples abound, and even a favored brand (Toyota) has serious issues with stuck rings. It's not just neglect anymore. It's that low tension piston rings get stuck more easily.
I tend to agree, oil consumption, stuck rings, seems to be an issue right now and going forward with these low tension ring/direct injected vehicles. Have a friend who owns a German auto repair facility - he says the oil consumption and buildup of soot on the piston rings on engines he's tearing down are ridiculous...stuff he wouldn't normally see on engines that are lower in mileage. He thinks the high pressure injector is causing fuel to mix and burn with the oil on the walls and the result is carbon buildup on the rings. I don't know, but something seems to be going on...I've owned two direct injection vehicles now...they both have burned oil, the higher mileage one got worse and worse as it went.
I think your friend is onto something. DI is improving imo, but there is still quite a bit of room for improvement.
Originally Posted by Cujet
Originally Posted by andyd
Keeping rings free from the get go is a function of the engine design, the OCI and the general level of the engine's up-keep. These days oil is good enough so that just about any oil within the specc'ed grade will deliver similar service as Tig1's preferred brand. The main thing with oil brand loyalty is you dont waste time comparison shopping
That is simply not correct. Examples abound, and even a favored brand (Toyota) has serious issues with stuck rings. It's not just neglect anymore. It's that low tension piston rings get stuck more easily.
I tend to agree, oil consumption, stuck rings, seems to be an issue right now and going forward with these low tension ring/direct injected vehicles. Have a friend who owns a German auto repair facility - he says the oil consumption and buildup of soot on the piston rings on engines he's tearing down are ridiculous...stuff he wouldn't normally see on engines that are lower in mileage. He thinks the high pressure injector is causing fuel to mix and burn with the oil on the walls and the result is carbon buildup on the rings. I don't know, but something seems to be going on...I've owned two direct injection vehicles now...they both have burned oil, the higher mileage one got worse and worse as it went.
I think your friend is onto something. DI is improving imo, but there is still quite a bit of room for improvement.
Originally Posted by CR94
Originally Posted by tig1
In 41 years using M1 oils at 10K OCIs none of my engines have had coked rings. ...
Perhaps you should give Ford at least as much credit as Mobil1. I don't hear of modern Fords with this problem as often as certain other brands. (Which is not to say someone won't cite exceptions ...)
In the early years(1978 to 1985) I drove other makes of vehicles not Fords.
Originally Posted by tig1
In 41 years using M1 oils at 10K OCIs none of my engines have had coked rings. ...
Perhaps you should give Ford at least as much credit as Mobil1. I don't hear of modern Fords with this problem as often as certain other brands. (Which is not to say someone won't cite exceptions ...)
In the early years(1978 to 1985) I drove other makes of vehicles not Fords.
I wonder how much oil volatility has to do with this?
In one of his posts, the now unfortunately banned SOJ stated that one should look for NOACK of no more than 10%.
Some 0W-20 grade oils provide this but many do not including many labeled as full synthetic.
In one of his posts, the now unfortunately banned SOJ stated that one should look for NOACK of no more than 10%.
Some 0W-20 grade oils provide this but many do not including many labeled as full synthetic.
Originally Posted by andyd
Cujet did you miss this in my statement.?... is a function of the engine design... The tensile strength of a ring would qualify as an engine design issue.
Not at all. The claim "These days oil is good enough so that just about any oil within the specc'ed grade will deliver similar service as Tig1's preferred brand (Mobil 1) " is provably false.
To continue the example I used above, the use of Mobil 1 and reasonable OCI's in Toyota Corrola's will result in no ring sticking and perfectly clean pistons.
Cujet did you miss this in my statement.?... is a function of the engine design... The tensile strength of a ring would qualify as an engine design issue.
Not at all. The claim "These days oil is good enough so that just about any oil within the specc'ed grade will deliver similar service as Tig1's preferred brand (Mobil 1) " is provably false.
To continue the example I used above, the use of Mobil 1 and reasonable OCI's in Toyota Corrola's will result in no ring sticking and perfectly clean pistons.
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