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Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost

Posted By: Navi

Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 12:17 AM

Keep in mind this is just my personal opinion. Amsoil did quite well here but the starting viscosity is simply too low for me to trust. I have become a fan of thick oil and convinced the thick oil offers better protection.

If you are looking for a boutique 5W30 go Redline. Redline starts out at CST 11.9.

As for me I bought 10 gallons of Mobil 1 Delvac ESP 5W40 at 19 per gallon on sale with rebate from Summit Racing. Im going the route of the Subbie guys using HDEO...



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Posted By: RazorsEdge

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 12:20 AM

I guess I don't see any issue with the Amsoil?!

shrug
Posted By: ARB1977

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 12:23 AM

Amsoil XL 5W30 is 11.1 @ 100c.
Posted By: Navi

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 12:27 AM

For dilute the fuel high horsepower turbos its a white knuckle experience seeing your oil turn into the viscosity of water. So at 4600 miles on the sample I feel like a stones throw from 5W20. The Amsoil held up well when compared to similar Mobil 1 oils but still I would like it to stay in 5W30 territory with a 7000 mile OCI.

I would feel better if Amsoil 5W30 started out a little thicker like Redline.
Posted By: PimTac

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 12:42 AM

Originally Posted by Navi
For dilute the fuel high horsepower turbos its a white knuckle experience seeing your oil turn into the viscosity of water. So at 4600 miles on the sample I feel like a stones throw from 5W20. The Amsoil held up well when compared to similar Mobil 1 oils but still I would like it to stay in 5W30 territory with a 7000 mile OCI.

I would feel better if Amsoil 5W30 started out a little thicker like Redline.





I don’t understand this at all. Diluting the fuel?

How did you test the viscosity?
Posted By: Navi

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 12:48 AM

turbl direct inject are known fuel diluters. So lets say I put Mobil 1 Advanced FS 5W30 in a V6 it will probably come back at 10+ CST but dump it in a turbo direct inject and it will be in the 7s to 8s. Im not going to trust that...
Posted By: Eddie

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 12:54 AM

Known fuel diluters for ALL DI turbos? I think not. My MAZDA CX7 was a turbo DI and didn't show dilution nor have I seen much evidence of the newer CX5 or CX9 DI turbos having issues. Ed
Posted By: RDY4WAR

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 01:03 AM

Originally Posted by Navi
For dilute the fuel high horsepower turbos its a white knuckle experience seeing your oil turn into the viscosity of water. So at 4600 miles on the sample I feel like a stones throw from 5W20. The Amsoil held up well when compared to similar Mobil 1 oils but still I would like it to stay in 5W30 territory with a 7000 mile OCI.

I would feel better if Amsoil 5W30 started out a little thicker like Redline.


I think you're imagining a problem where it doesn't exist. There is no reason you couldn't continue that change of Amsoil to 7,500+ miles.

Water has a KV100 of 0.294 cSt. That UOA is 32x more viscous than water, and it started out 34x more viscous than water.

I maintain a pair of high powered alcohol bracket engines. 632ci, 15+ compression, and 9500 rpm making 1300+hp on just the motor. Over 40 different formulas of oil have been run through these engines over the past 8 years from SAE 50 to 0w-3. There has been very little correlation between the viscosity and wear. Reduce the anti-wear package by 20%, regardless of viscosity, and the wear increases 4 fold.
Posted By: buster

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 01:07 AM

I'm not familiar with this engine. I'd try Castrol Edge EP. Does well on the Kurt Orbahn test.
Posted By: RazorsEdge

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 01:08 AM

Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
Originally Posted by Navi
For dilute the fuel high horsepower turbos its a white knuckle experience seeing your oil turn into the viscosity of water. So at 4600 miles on the sample I feel like a stones throw from 5W20. The Amsoil held up well when compared to similar Mobil 1 oils but still I would like it to stay in 5W30 territory with a 7000 mile OCI.

I would feel better if Amsoil 5W30 started out a little thicker like Redline.


I think you're imagining a problem where it doesn't exist. There is no reason you couldn't continue that change of Amsoil to 7,500+ miles.

Water has a KV100 of 0.294 cSt. That UOA is 32x more viscous than water, and it started out 34x more viscous than water.

I maintain a pair of high powered alcohol bracket engines. 632ci, 15+ compression, and 9500 rpm making 1300+hp on just the motor. Over 40 different formulas of oil have been run through these engines over the past 8 years from SAE 50 to 0w-3. There has been very little correlation between the viscosity and wear. Reduce the anti-wear package by 20%, regardless of viscosity, and the wear increases 4 fold.


Best post in this thread, most interesting at least.

You ever run royal purple in those bracket engines, just curious.

Sorry for the hijack OP, but your worried about nothing IMO.
Posted By: buster

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
Originally Posted by Navi
For dilute the fuel high horsepower turbos its a white knuckle experience seeing your oil turn into the viscosity of water. So at 4600 miles on the sample I feel like a stones throw from 5W20. The Amsoil held up well when compared to similar Mobil 1 oils but still I would like it to stay in 5W30 territory with a 7000 mile OCI.

I would feel better if Amsoil 5W30 started out a little thicker like Redline.


I think you're imagining a problem where it doesn't exist. There is no reason you couldn't continue that change of Amsoil to 7,500+ miles.

Water has a KV100 of 0.294 cSt. That UOA is 32x more viscous than water, and it started out 34x more viscous than water.

I maintain a pair of high powered alcohol bracket engines. 632ci, 15+ compression, and 9500 rpm making 1300+hp on just the motor. Over 40 different formulas of oil have been run through these engines over the past 8 years from SAE 50 to 0w-3. There has been very little correlation between the viscosity and wear. Reduce the anti-wear package by 20%, regardless of viscosity, and the wear increases 4 fold.


Informative, thank you.
Posted By: Navi

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 01:26 AM

If there is absolutely zero issues with 5W30 then how come in Europe we see 5W40 and 0W40? If I go on the Mobil 1 website and start plugging in various model names from Audi and MB how come it tells me to use 5W40?

Why are there all these guys out there with modified turbo engines using Shell Rotella T6 5W40?

After much research which included my own personal experiences I finally went this way.
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Posted By: donnyj08

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 01:51 AM

A 9% loss in Vis on a 5k mile interval but the oil is still in grade. Pretty minimal loss considering TT and DI

PP and PUP both start out at or below 9.67cst before being ran in a sump.

No problems here that aren’t fictional.

horse
Posted By: burla

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 01:54 AM

No doubt if Redine grew a brain and either lowered CA and raised Mag or made another lineup for di, they would be one of the best options for di turbo's when considering, NOACK, hths, raised zddp, moly, and esters, but their brain is still in absentia. They simply aren't keeping up with the marketplace and it is rather dissapointing.
Posted By: burla

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 01:55 AM

Nothing wrong with that Amsoil, it may be a little thin, but stable as NOACK shows. Better choice for di then redline at this time imo.
Posted By: JLTD

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 02:18 AM

Amsoil 0w-40 is 3.76. Just sayin'.....
Posted By: PimTac

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 02:27 AM

The OP was going to run what he wanted to run. Confirmation bias runs deep.
Posted By: Mainia

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 04:28 AM

I am running Delo XSP 5w-40 in my fuel diluting Hyundai 1.6T. I have yet. To do a UOA on this oil , but it stayed cleaner then most other oils I have used when checking oil every 1,000 miles.
Posted By: GumbyJarvis

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 04:54 AM

Originally Posted by Mainia
I am running Delo XSP 5w-40 in my fuel diluting Hyundai 1.6T. I have yet. To do a UOA on this oil , but it stayed cleaner then most other oils I have used when checking oil every 1,000 miles.


I ran Castrol Edge 0w40 in my old Veloster 1.6T, everything else seemed "burnt" when changing 3k miles in.
Posted By: Jimmy_Russells

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 05:46 AM

Originally Posted by Navi
If there is absolutely zero issues with 5W30 then how come in Europe we see 5W40 and 0W40? If I go on the Mobil 1 website and start plugging in various model names from Audi and MB how come it tells me to use 5W40?



Because Autobahn. Nobody ever seems to talk about this, but nowhere in North America can you maintain 120 mph for two hours, for example. On the Autobahn, save for having to slow to 80 mph sometimes, you can do that no problem. So they have to recommend oils that will not thin out at 240+ degree oil temps.
Posted By: GumbyJarvis

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 05:56 AM

Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Originally Posted by Navi
If there is absolutely zero issues with 5W30 then how come in Europe we see 5W40 and 0W40? If I go on the Mobil 1 website and start plugging in various model names from Audi and MB how come it tells me to use 5W40?



Because Autobahn. Nobody ever seems to talk about this, but nowhere in North America can you maintain 120 mph for two hours, for example. On the Autobahn, save for having to slow to 80 mph sometimes, you can do that no problem. So they have to recommend oils that will not thin out at 240+ degree oil temps.


Exactly.

The same reason you see vehicles here that people track bump up to 40 and 50 weights while they're tracking. For example, a 350Z takes what, 5w30? But nobody taking it on the track for the weekend (let me rephrase, nobody knowing what they're doing) is gonna run 5w30 for track time, theyll bump it to a 40 or 50 weight.
Posted By: wemay

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 06:59 AM


30, 40 and nowadays 20 will work if you're spec'd for it. But let's continue with the passive aggressive fear mongering why don't we. (Not specifically aimed at the OP)
Posted By: OilUzer

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 07:16 AM

In US, you'll never know when the stop & go traffic will clear and you can then speed up to 40 mph. That's why you need a thicker oil just in case!
Posted By: Navi

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 08:02 AM

If I did run Amsoil it would be something thicker like their 0W-40. In studying various UOAs of 0W40 oils there seems to.be a bit more iron wear especially with Mobil 1 0W40 FS.

If Amsoil started out thicker like Redline I would be onboard here.
Posted By: BISCUT

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 10:41 AM

The second UOA showing a 5.4 V8. 18 Navigator should be 3.5 Eco HO right? Same as the Raptor engine?
Posted By: BISCUT

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 10:44 AM

With that engine would it not matter most what the OCI is? Wrong to believe non issue with a 5k OCI but a waste indeed?

Longer OCI might not be the best for those chains long term.
Posted By: SubieRubyRoo

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Navi
Why are there all these guys out there with modified (Subaru) turbo engines using Shell Rotella T6 5W40?


They're simply trying to compensate for a problem on an engine known to be extremely hard on crank and rod bearings when the boost is turned up. Stock EJ255/257s have no problem going a couple hundred K miles on 5W30; it seems the issue is once these engines go past 400WHP. I'm sure tuning plays a big part as well. It's not a 5W30 problem, it's a "running the engine well outside its designed & intended capabilities" problem.
Posted By: ka9mnx

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Originally Posted by Navi
If there is absolutely zero issues with 5W30 then how come in Europe we see 5W40 and 0W40? If I go on the Mobil 1 website and start plugging in various model names from Audi and MB how come it tells me to use 5W40?



Because Autobahn. Nobody ever seems to talk about this, but nowhere in North America can you maintain 120 mph for two hours, for example. On the Autobahn, save for having to slow to 80 mph sometimes, you can do that no problem. So they have to recommend oils that will not thin out at 240+ degree oil temps.

Also, In Europe they design and build engines differently than we do here. Engine speeds, ring/liner pressure, ring/big-end clearances
, etc. My '87 BMW was an unusual engine built for fuel economy and MANDATED any oil with an HTHS >3.5. If protection is what you are looking for, your looking in the wrong place. Look for an oil with an HTHS >3.5.
Posted By: kschachn

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 12:53 PM

Sorry, but this is a thread full of imagined problems and subsequent solutions based on more imagination.
Posted By: buster

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by kschachn
Sorry, but this is a thread full of imagined problems and subsequent solutions based on more imagination.


+1
Posted By: bluesubie

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 01:41 PM


The newer DIT FA engines (100% stock) do seem to be getting along fine, in terms of uoa wear metals, on thinner oils despite the oil usually showing 2-5% fuel dilution and viscosity usually in the mid-20 grade range. The older EJ engines definitely benefit more from thicker oils more than the newer engines IMO. Having said that, Subaru Japan allows Euro 0W-30 and 5W-40 in DIT's so I wouldn't consider running thicker oils in turbo Subaru's as an imagined problem. 2cents

https://www.subaru.jp/accessory/engine_oil/lineup/premium02.html
Posted By: buster

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 02:19 PM

The issue with some of the xw-40 oils is the spread. You ideally want an oil with less VII's in a fuel diluter. More VII's the greater percentage of viscosity loss as fuel dilution increases. A stout 10w30 is a nice choice for an engine that is known for diluting oil.

The Delvac 5w40 is likely a solid 40 grade choice.
Posted By: burla

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by kschachn
Sorry, but this is a thread full of imagined problems and subsequent solutions based on more imagination.


Dude is asking for help assuming he is developing a strategy for his di engines. The issues with di engines are not imagined, in fact they have been solely responsible for the entire industry moving in the same direction of low CA oils. LSPI does exist, a lubrication strategy can help it. Maybe there are plenty of other factors, but as an owner you can only do so much, why not do what is in your power to do? Amsoil's formula looks like one of the better di friendly formulas out there as far as lspi protection goes, but some di's have been known to shread oil visc, it is another valid concern about starting out thin. There are many things to consider when owning a di turbo, it is advanced ownership, and it seams like even great di formulas can improve upon themselves. Haven't seen a low CA, low noack, high viscosity, high moly oil for this yet, and a lot of the paper out there suggests this would be a good oil formula for di's. let's all just run havo in a box baby and not worry ourselves?
Posted By: Jimmy_Russells

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 04:16 PM

OP should just use 5W50 Redline. You can never be too safe.
Posted By: jbutch

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by bluesubie

The newer DIT FA engines (100% stock) do seem to be getting along fine, in terms of uoa wear metals, on thinner oils despite the oil usually showing 2-5% fuel dilution and viscosity usually in the mid-20 grade range. The older EJ engines definitely benefit more from thicker oils more than the newer engines IMO. Having said that, Subaru Japan allows Euro 0W-30 and 5W-40 in DIT's so I wouldn't consider running thicker oils in turbo Subaru's as an imagined problem. 2cents

https://www.subaru.jp/accessory/engine_oil/lineup/premium02.html


While I agree they are doing ok on a sheared 20 grade oil, I had better wear metals on a HDEO that stayed in the 30 grade.

While ok is good enough for most people, I like the peace of mind of running something thicker and get better wear.
Posted By: SubieRubyRoo

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by jbutch

While I agree they are doing ok on a sheared 20 grade oil, I had better wear metals on a HDEO that stayed in the 30 grade.

While ok is good enough for most people, I like the peace of mind of running something thicker and get better wear.


As dnewton3 has stated, UOAs are not a very good indicator of actual wear. The stuff that shows up in a UOA is only the stuff that is less than ~ 7 microns, which is infinitesimally small. The only real way to measure wear would be a complete teardown and measurements with calipers and micrometers. Your engine could be suffering catastrophic wear and shedding large pieces of metal that would never show up in a UOA. To use a UOA to evaluate oils on a "better/worse" basis is a fool's errand. Long term trending is where UOAs show benefits. If iron is tracking along at 8-15ppm and next UOA jumps to 125 for example, that may be an indicator that something is amiss. But if your UOA goes from 8ppm to 15ppm, that is NOT something to freak out about!

Use your UOA to check that the viscosity remained in grade, TBN is greater than 1.0, and iron is less than 150ppm (per Doug Hillary). If any of those fail, you either need to shorten your OCI or choose a more robust oil. Other than that you're imagining perceived benefits from a test that's not designed for or capable of giving you that kind of information.
Posted By: jbutch

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 09:22 PM

Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
Originally Posted by jbutch

While I agree they are doing ok on a sheared 20 grade oil, I had better wear metals on a HDEO that stayed in the 30 grade.

While ok is good enough for most people, I like the peace of mind of running something thicker and get better wear.


As dnewton3 has stated, UOAs are not a very good indicator of actual wear. The stuff that shows up in a UOA is only the stuff that is less than ~ 7 microns, which is infinitesimally small. The only real way to measure wear would be a complete teardown and measurements with calipers and micrometers. Your engine could be suffering catastrophic wear and shedding large pieces of metal that would never show up in a UOA. To use a UOA to evaluate oils on a "better/worse" basis is a fool's errand. Long term trending is where UOAs show benefits. If iron is tracking along at 8-15ppm and next UOA jumps to 125 for example, that may be an indicator that something is amiss. But if your UOA goes from 8ppm to 15ppm, that is NOT something to freak out about!

Use your UOA to check that the viscosity remained in grade, TBN is greater than 1.0, and iron is less than 150ppm (per Doug Hillary). If any of those fail, you either need to shorten your OCI or choose a more robust oil. Other than that you're imagining perceived benefits from a test that's not designed for or capable of giving you that kind of information.


You have some good points, but I do feel better with an oil that stays in grade and with lower wear. Might be my ocd smile
Posted By: FA_WRX

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/11/19 11:28 PM

I will add that my WRX with most of its 92K on the clock as seen the recommend 5W30. UOAs have came back fine even with the oil sheared to high 20 grade. I have a UOA out to bkackstone currently with a run of Castrol 5W40. I don't expect the numbers to change all that much.
Posted By: jbutch

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/12/19 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by FA_WRX
I will add that my WRX with most of its 92K on the clock as seen the recommend 5W30. UOAs have came back fine even with the oil sheared to high 20 grade. I have a UOA out to bkackstone currently with a run of Castrol 5W40. I don't expect the numbers to change all that much.


Interested in seeing that uoa.

What oil did you put in this time?
Posted By: FA_WRX

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/12/19 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by jbutch
Originally Posted by FA_WRX


Interested in seeing that uoa.

What oil did you put in this time?



Current run is 5W40 Valvoline MST.
Posted By: RDY4WAR

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/13/19 04:44 AM

Originally Posted by kschachn
Sorry, but this is a thread full of imagined problems and subsequent solutions based on more imagination.


Exactly. A few SAE studies have shown no correlation between kinematic viscosity nor dynamic viscosity above the minimum oil film thickness needed for the application. You'd be surprised how thin that is. There's also a point where wear increases with too high of viscosity due to less flow and more friction. This thread is a prime example of the "bigger is better" mentality being wrongfully applied.
Posted By: RDY4WAR

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost - 09/13/19 04:56 AM

Originally Posted by burla
Originally Posted by kschachn
Sorry, but this is a thread full of imagined problems and subsequent solutions based on more imagination.


Dude is asking for help assuming he is developing a strategy for his di engines. The issues with di engines are not imagined, in fact they have been solely responsible for the entire industry moving in the same direction of low CA oils. LSPI does exist, a lubrication strategy can help it. Maybe there are plenty of other factors, but as an owner you can only do so much, why not do what is in your power to do? Amsoil's formula looks like one of the better di friendly formulas out there as far as lspi protection goes, but some di's have been known to shread oil visc, it is another valid concern about starting out thin. There are many things to consider when owning a di turbo, it is advanced ownership, and it seams like even great di formulas can improve upon themselves. Haven't seen a low CA, low noack, high viscosity, high moly oil for this yet, and a lot of the paper out there suggests this would be a good oil formula for di's. let's all just run havo in a box baby and not worry ourselves?


Driven DI40 5w-40 fits that ticket with PAO base oil, 1050 ppm Zn, 950 ppm P, 1220 ppm Ca, and 340 ppm Mo.
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