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SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2

Posted By: yowps3

SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 - 06/11/19 01:13 PM

Which is better at eliminating LSPI, IVD and turbocharger coking?

Assuming only one could be chosen over the other..
Posted By: ka9mnx

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 - 06/11/19 01:21 PM

D1G2
Posted By: Rand

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 - 06/11/19 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by yowps3
Which is better at eliminating LSPI, IVD and turbocharger coking?

Assuming only one could be chosen over the other..


Assuming you dont breathe air which would kill you first, snakebite or a nuclear bomb 10miles away.


Most/all D1G2 oil should be api SN+ so you never have to choose.

Chrysler MS-13340 is a similar spec(gdi turbo lspi) for the 2.0t engine
however only Pennzoil Platinum has that spec so its not much help unless you are a PP fan.

API SN+ isnt as stringent as d1g2 or chrysler ms-13340
However API SN+ has a wider viscosity range than D1G2
and D1G2 is a paid spec.. they have to pay GM to put it on the bottle.

so there may be other reasons why an oil is api sn+ but not d1g2, you cant automatically assume its inferior.
Posted By: Floyd1

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 - 06/11/19 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by Rand
Originally Posted by yowps3
Which is better at eliminating LSPI, IVD and turbocharger coking?

Assuming only one could be chosen over the other..


Assuming you dont breathe air which would kill you first, snakebite or a nuclear bomb 10miles away.


Any D1G2 oil should be api SN+ so you never have to choose.
Chrysler MS-13340 is also a similar spec for the 2.0t engine
however only Pennzoil Platinum has that spec so its not much help unless you are a PP fan.


This is what I was wondering. Is it possible to even get one without covering the other?
Posted By: Virtus_Probi

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 - 06/11/19 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Floyd1
Originally Posted by Rand
Originally Posted by yowps3
Which is better at eliminating LSPI, IVD and turbocharger coking?
Assuming only one could be chosen over the other..

Assuming you dont breathe air which would kill you first, snakebite or a nuclear bomb 10miles away.
Any D1G2 oil should be api SN+ so you never have to choose.
Chrysler MS-13340 is also a similar spec for the 2.0t engine
however only Pennzoil Platinum has that spec so its not much help unless you are a PP fan.

This is what I was wondering. Is it possible to even get one without covering the other?

Well, one difference I know off the top of my head is that the max Noack loss for d1G2 is 13% while it is 15% for SN+.
So, an oil could meet SN+ but fail for d1G2 on the basis of that measurement.
It is also my understanding that SN+ doesn't include a turbo deposit test like d1G2 does.
I guess I might be a tad suspicious of an oil that is SN+ and not d1G2 UNLESS it is a grade that is not covered by d1G2...like the 10W30 I am running now.
This is the first non-d1G2 oil I have run since I bought a bottle of M1 5W30 AP because it was the only oil on the WM shelf that had a d1G2 license number! Didn't say Gen 2 on the front because the standard was not "live" yet...Gen 2 is a superset of dexos1 so it met the standard claimed on the bottle by default.
Posted By: SubieRubyRoo

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 - 06/11/19 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi

I guess I might be a tad suspicious of an oil that is SN+ and not d1G2 UNLESS it is a grade that is not covered by d1G2...like the 10W30 I am running now.


An oil manufacturer may not want to pay the dexos royalties on their SN+ oil... and regardless, dexos is only "required" by GM. You have to make the personal choice of this; with a 5 year old vehicle either SN+ or d1G2 will exceed your engine's oil requirements.

OP, by adding what engine you are talking about, you will likely get better recommendations than just the nebulous question you asked.
Posted By: Snagglefoot

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 - 06/11/19 02:19 PM

Correct me if I am wrong but a 10w30 can be SN+ but not D1G2. Also, lower calcium is a big player with SN+.
Posted By: Virtus_Probi

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 - 06/11/19 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
Correct me if I am wrong but a 10w30 can be SN+ but not D1G2. Also, lower calcium is a big player with SN+.

Yeah, my M1 10W30 HM I am running now cannot be d1G2 by the definition of the standard...but it is SN+.
Posted By: Virtus_Probi

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 - 06/11/19 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi

I guess I might be a tad suspicious of an oil that is SN+ and not d1G2 UNLESS it is a grade that is not covered by d1G2...like the 10W30 I am running now.

An oil manufacturer may not want to pay the dexos royalties on their SN+ oil... and regardless, dexos is only "required" by GM. You have to make the personal choice of this; with a 5 year old vehicle either SN+ or d1G2 will exceed your engine's oil requirements.
OP, by adding what engine you are talking about, you will likely get better recommendations than just the nebulous question you asked.

I guess I don't really trust Subaru's oil recommendations after they had to recall the FA20DIT engines due to LSPI as well as carbon buildup issues...I only got new plugs and a new ECU program, but some people had engine damage and many others got a free chemical cleaning (no walnut blasting AFAIK). I had already been running M1 5W30 for some time and was glad for it...I'm sure Subaru changed the engines to run a little richer at LSPI danger points as I understand that is supposed to help prevent it, but I'm still going to do whatever I reasonably can to limit the chance of LSPI with my maintenance choices. I don't think Subaru ever updated their oil recommendations for the FA20DIT, unlike GM which was calling out either AC Delco or M1 5W30 specifically after their 1.5l DIT debacle (I would imagine since changed to d1G2).
Like you said, personal choice...I'm sure plenty have people have been putting whatever they want in FA20DITs with no issues.

As evidenced by my present oil, I'm fine with SN+ alone...I just think that I might shy away from a 5W30 that was only SN+ and not d1G2, it would be so easy to get a 5W30 with both.
Posted By: csandste

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 - 06/11/19 03:02 PM

So I make two semi syn oils that I want to differentiate by price. I pay D1g2 fees on one and slap semi syn on the label ... and charge extra for it.
Posted By: slacktide_bitog

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 - 06/11/19 03:03 PM

d1g2

You know that d1g2 encompasses SN+, right? smirk2

You might also want to consider dexos2 if you desire a thicker oil. dexos2 is like C3 and is used for all GM cars in Europe, gas/petrol and diesel. In the US, GM only uses dexos2 for the Cruze diesel and C7 Corvette
Posted By: vsssarma

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 - 06/14/19 04:49 AM

Typical specification of dexos 1 PCMO available is:

API SN Plus RC (RC = Resource Conserving)
GM dexos 1 Generation 2
GM 6094M
Chrysler: MS-6395
ILSAC GF-5
Ford WSS-M2C947-A (0W20)
Ford WSS-M2C947-B1 (0W20)

https://www.mobil.com/english-us/passenger-vehicle-lube/pds/glxxmobil-super-synthetic

dexos 2 is more focused on Diesel Engines. dexos 1 is a PCMO.
Posted By: OilUzer

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 - 06/14/19 07:07 AM

Didn't some experts say in Europe they don't have/use d1g2 or d2 and they have no lspi issues?
I think they use thicker and/or higher hths oil!
Posted By: weasley

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 - 06/14/19 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by OilUzer
Didn't some experts say in Europe they don't have/use d1g2 or d2 and they have no lspi issues?
I think they use thicker and/or higher hths oil!


On the contrary - GM brands here issued a service bulletin a while back requiring certain gasoline-engined cars to use dexos1g2 to mitigate LSPI. This was slightly inconvenient as most oils here were dexos2, with few d1g2 options available.
Posted By: Solarent

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 - 06/14/19 11:35 AM

Both options have LSPI testing - GM uses the GMOD, and SN+ uses the Sequence IX which is a Ford engine.

Eliminating LSPI is an interesting part of this question. Lubrizol has been out in the market talking about LSPI protection on used oil (both the tests only
look at LSPI protection on new oil).
Lubrizol Podcast on LSPI
Posted By: Virtus_Probi

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 - 06/14/19 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by weasley
Originally Posted by OilUzer
Didn't some experts say in Europe they don't have/use d1g2 or d2 and they have no lspi issues?
I think they use thicker and/or higher hths oil!

On the contrary - GM brands here issued a service bulletin a while back requiring certain gasoline-engined cars to use dexos1g2 to mitigate LSPI. This was slightly inconvenient as most oils here were dexos2, with few d1g2 options available.


VERY interesting info...thank you!
I have been guessing that we haven't heard much about problems with DIT engines using A3/B4 oils because of the higher ZDDP levels, as that additive is a strong LSPI quencher...but that it is only a guess.

Originally Posted by Solarent
Both options have LSPI testing - GM uses the GMOD, and SN+ uses the Sequence IX which is a Ford engine.
Eliminating LSPI is an interesting part of this question. Lubrizol has been out in the market talking about LSPI protection on used oil (both the tests only
look at LSPI protection on new oil).
Lubrizol Podcast on LSPI

The updated -B1 Ford oil specs also include an LSPI test in a 2.0l EcoBoost, but I don't know how that test compares to the SN+ one.
Posted By: Solarent

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 - 06/14/19 12:13 PM

The 2.0L Ecoboost is the same engine in the Sequence IX.
Posted By: Virtus_Probi

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 - 06/14/19 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Solarent
The 2.0L Ecoboost is the same engine in the Sequence IX.

Thanks...do you know if the actual LSPI tests are similar between SN+ and the -B1s?
Posted By: Triple_Se7en

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 - 06/14/19 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi

I have been guessing that we haven't heard much about problems with DIT engines using A3/B4 oils because of the higher ZDDP levels, as that additive is a strong LSPI quencher...but that it is only a guess.

Are all the A3/B4 oils low Calcium (-1100) and high Magnesium (+500)?
Posted By: Virtus_Probi

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 - 06/14/19 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi

I have been guessing that we haven't heard much about problems with DIT engines using A3/B4 oils because of the higher ZDDP levels, as that additive is a strong LSPI quencher...but that it is only a guess.

Are all the A3/B4 oils low Calcium (-1100) and high Magnesium (+500)?

I have seen a number of VOAs for M1 0W40 FS A3/B4 and they have all been very high in calcium (maybe 2800 ppm) and had little magnesium. I believe the M1 0W40 formulation before that was similar.
I think Castrol 0W40 A3/B4 is quite a bit lower than M1 in calcium but I'm not completely sure of that.

There was a summary of oil additive effects on LSPI from one of the additive makers (Infineum??) that showed a plot with the occurrence of LSPI really plummeting as the ZDDP concentration was swept not far beyond the typical SN/GF5 levels...I actually bought a bottle of Rislone ZDDP additive and was adding a bit at every change before d1G2 came along! Yes, I know I'm ridiculous...
Posted By: Corollaman

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 - 06/14/19 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted by Solarent
The 2.0L Ecoboost is the same engine in the Sequence IX.

Thanks...do you know if the actual LSPI tests are similar between SN+ and the -B1s?

That's what I was wondering. Will all these sn+ oils meet the ford -B1 spec? All of the "conventional" oils from supertech, chevron, etc meet sn+.
Posted By: Direct_Rejection

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 - 06/14/19 09:55 PM

Thank you Solarent for the prompt link to this vital podcast.

From Part I...
SN+/D1G2 >> SN/D1/G1.
It is eye opening to learn how important the changes are for insurance against LSPI.

From Part II...
The culprit is the combination of small amounts of motor oil, with unburned fuel mixed in, in the crevice volume (between the first ringland and the top piston ring,) along with piston deposits.
LSPI is complex, as stated, but there is also greater specificity here.

It sure sounds like there is a direct correlation between fuel dilution and LSPI.
My maintenance plan with a boosted GDI engine would surely involve the cheapest SN+ oil, Chevron Supreme comes to mind, and OCIs which are quite short, 3k miles !!
Also, I glean that recommended viscosity should be used over going thicker and extending OCis. JMO.
Posted By: Corollaman

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 - 06/14/19 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by Direct_Rejection
Thank you Solarent for the prompt link to this vital podcast.

From Part I...
SN+/D1G2 >> SN/D1/G1.
It is eye opening to learn how important the changes are for insurance against LSPI.

From Part II...
The culprit is the combination of small amounts of motor oil, with unburned fuel mixed in, in the crevice volume (between the first ringland and the top piston ring,) along with piston deposits.
LSPI is complex, as stated, but there is also greater specificity here.

It sure sounds like there is a direct correlation between fuel dilution and LSPI.
My maintenance plan with a boosted GDI engine would surely involve the cheapest SN+ oil, Chevron Supreme comes to mind, and OCIs which are quite short, 3k miles !!
Also, I glean that recommended viscosity should be used over going thicker and extending OCis. JMO.

I'm using Chevron Supreme 5w30 SN+ and doing short oil changes (4,000 miles) in my 2016 Fusion 2.0, with a Motorcraft oil filter it's like $17 total.
Posted By: burla

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 - 06/15/19 02:58 AM

A short interval with either will smash the other one assuming a long interval. Ise a stable weight oil like 5w20, even better.
Posted By: OilUzer

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 - 06/15/19 04:27 AM

Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted by weasley
Originally Posted by OilUzer
Didn't some experts say in Europe they don't have/use d1g2 or d2 and they have no lspi issues?
I think they use thicker and/or higher hths oil!

On the contrary - GM brands here issued a service bulletin a while back requiring certain gasoline-engined cars to use dexos1g2 to mitigate LSPI. This was slightly inconvenient as most oils here were dexos2, with few d1g2 options available.


VERY interesting info...thank you!
I have been guessing that we haven't heard much about problems with DIT engines using A3/B4 oils because of the higher ZDDP levels, as that additive is a strong LSPI quencher...but that it is only a guess.
...



a3/b4 oils have higher hths as well.
Posted By: SR5

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 - 06/15/19 05:11 AM

Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi

I have been guessing that we haven't heard much about problems with DIT engines using A3/B4 oils because of the higher ZDDP levels, as that additive is a strong LSPI quencher...but that it is only a guess.

Are all the A3/B4 oils low Calcium (-1100) and high Magnesium (+500)?

I have seen a number of VOAs for M1 0W40 FS A3/B4 and they have all been very high in calcium (maybe 2800 ppm) and had little magnesium. I believe the M1 0W40 formulation before that was similar.
I think Castrol 0W40 A3/B4 is quite a bit lower than M1 in calcium but I'm not completely sure of that.

There was a summary of oil additive effects on LSPI from one of the additive makers (Infineum??) that showed a plot with the occurrence of LSPI really plummeting as the ZDDP concentration was swept not far beyond the typical SN/GF5 levels...I actually bought a bottle of Rislone ZDDP additive and was adding a bit at every change before d1G2 came along! Yes, I know I'm ridiculous...


Yes, I recall those plots, and I think it was Infineum. They showed that LSPI events increased linearly with increasing Ca add, hence the SN+ and D1G2 move to replace some Ca with Mg detergent. To decrease Ca levels for the same final TBN.

However they also showed that LSPI events decreased exponentially with increasing ZDDP, it was a powerful quencher of LSPI.

Most Euro A3/B4 oils that I know still have a full Ca detergent package with no or little Mg. However A3/B4 oils don’t have a restriction on their upper Phos (and therefore ZDDP) levels, while ILSAC-SN oils do have an upper limit imposed. Most SN / SN+ and GF-5 oils have about 700 ppm ZDDP while a typical A3/B4 Euro oil will have about 1000 ppm ZDDP. Recall a non-GF5 viscosity grade, like 5W40 has no restriction and so can be SN & A3/B4, it’s the thinner grades that are restricted.

I think when Europe was running full-SAPS A3/B4 oils with high ZDDP levels, they had no LSPI issues even with full Ca detergent packages. But recently they have moved to mid-SAPS C3 oils (like Dexos2) for both petrol (gas) and Diesel engines. This is probably where the problem with LSPI in Europe started as a C3 oil is restricted in the upper level of Sulphated Ash (SA%) permitted, and given that ZDDP adds to the SA% they tend to make Euro C3 oils with the same ZDDP levels as American GF-5 oils, but without swapping out some Ca for Mg and hence the start of seeing LSPI in Europe.
Posted By: SR5

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 - 06/15/19 05:26 AM

Originally Posted by OilUzer

a3/b4 oils have higher hths as well.

Both ACEA A3/B4 and ACEA C3 are high HTHS oils (>= 3.5 cP) they differ in their SAPS level (SA%).
A Dexos2 oil is also a C3 oil (mid-SAPS), but can’t be an A3/B4 oil (high-SAPS).

A GF-5 or D1G2 oil is a low HTHS oil.
Posted By: Triple_Se7en

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 - 06/15/19 03:49 PM

So why are all the oil companies pushing low Calcium and high Magnesium oils these days for GDI / TGDI / lspi Engines. Wait - it's because we use thin oil in this country. Check all the owners manuals in the past decade for verification of that.

So find out what 0W16 / 0W20 / 5W20 / 5W30 oils have a good amount of ZDDP and problem solved. Then be sure to check the labels of these oils, for another verification that says SN Plus and Dexos1Gen2.

I side with the automakers USA specs. Those are Dexos/SN Plus currently. Most-all prior owners manuals have older specs than what's current. But store shelves will catch-up with new specs in little time thereafter.

You can side with high ZDDP in your GDI / TGDI / lspi machines. I like my chances of lower maintenance better than yours, using the latest specs intended for USA vehicles / USA fuel..
Posted By: Direct_Rejection

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 - 06/15/19 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by Corollaman
Originally Posted by Direct_Rejection
Thank you Solarent for the prompt link to this vital podcast.

From Part I...
SN+/D1G2 >> SN/D1/G1.
It is eye opening to learn how important the changes are for insurance against LSPI.

From Part II...
The culprit is the combination of small amounts of motor oil, with unburned fuel mixed in, in the crevice volume (between the first ringland and the top piston ring,) along with piston deposits.
LSPI is complex, as stated, but there is also greater specificity here.

It sure sounds like there is a direct correlation between fuel dilution and LSPI.
My maintenance plan with a boosted GDI engine would surely involve the cheapest SN+ oil, Chevron Supreme comes to mind, and OCIs which are quite short, 3k miles !!
Also, I glean that recommended viscosity should be used over going thicker and extending OCis. JMO.

I'm using Chevron Supreme 5w30 SN+ and doing short oil changes (4,000 miles) in my 2016 Fusion 2.0, with a Motorcraft oil filter it's like $17 total.


Nice !
A vastly overlooked motor oil.
Chevron Supreme
SN+.
Hydrocracked.
Synthetic Blend.
Turbo rated.
$2.27/qt.
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