Harley engine life.

[Bagger_Matt]

I went on a ride today with the local HOG chapter. I started asking people about their service practices. One man
had 98,000 on a 97 roadking using bel-ray 20w50 semi syn at 5k changes. Another woman said she only uses harley oils at 3k changes, she had 145,000 on a early 90's ultra classic.
For my next change Im going to use pennoil 20w50 and a napa gold filter. I figure any oil will work for 3k changes.

 

[fuel tanker man]

The Harley Evolution engine is probably the most durable motorcycle engine ever produced, to include the German and Italian makes and certainly all of the Japanese engines.

There have been at least two documented cases of Evolution engines exceeding 400,000 miles without a rebuild, one of which went 460,000 miles. Both of these were run on 2500 mile OCI's with regular 20W50 Harley dino oil, made by Sunoco at the time...

One of the above mentioned bikes is now in the Harley museum in Milwaukee, and the company actually traded the owner (Dave Willet of High Point, NC) a new Twin Cam bike for his old Tour Glide--even.

Willet now has more than 250,000 miles on the Twin Cam, with only cam chain tensioner replacement at necessary intervals.

Dan

 

[g56]

HARLEY TWIN CAM SURVEY REPORT
The faithful speak

Motorcycle Consumer News March 2004
Over 750 Harley owners returned the survey
Average mileage at time of failure 17,000
30% went over 20,000 miles before failure
Average miles per year 4,000, the lowest average miles per year of any bike they have surveyed, about half of the average Honda owners mileage.

1999 models at time of survey
58.3% had experienced cam bearing failure

The newer models don't seem to be doing any better, there are fewer failures, but that seems to be related to the lower number of total miles on the bike, even the 2004 models are having failures.

27% of owners say they weren't satisfied with the repairs after engine failure.
31% had to pay for part of the repair of the known defect.

Owner satisfaction with Harley dealer service
58% good to excellent
12% fair
10% poor to unacceptable

It is worth noting that after years and years of denial that this problem even existed, while at the same time saying that they had fixed the problem years ago, Harley finally fixed this known defect starting with the 2007 model engines. This problem goes back to the introduction of the EVO engine.

It's rather funny, when the EVO engine came out, Willie G went on TV and said: "We finally have a true 100,000 mile engine", it wasn't. When Harley introduced the twin cam engine, Willie G went on TV and said: "We finally have a true 100,000 mile engine", and it wasn't.

Motorcycle Consumer News Quality Rating (Higher numbers are better) Aug 2002 issue
Honda +196
Yamaha +133
Suzuki +61
Kawasaki +34
BMW -27
Harley Davidson -197

JD Power Ratings for motorcycles, Harley has the lowest quality rating of all the major brands. http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/motorcycles

 

[fuel tanker man]

Don't pass that thing this way. Keep it between you and that dufus rag you quote. What a bunch of tripe...

 

[Steve128]

Quote:

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Don't pass that thing this way. Keep it between you and that dufus rag you quote. What a bunch of tripe...

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The rag he quotes is one of the better magazines. The evolution engine was the beginning of a new Harley Davidson; a great decision by Vaughn Beals. But to believe the evolution motor was better than all the Japanese cycle engines is too funny.

Of that era, the KZ1000 was better, the GS1000 was better, and there were others.

 

[G-MAN]

Quote:

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JD Power Ratings for motorcycles, Harley has the lowest quality rating of all the major brands.

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Hmmm...I've had my Harley for almost a year now with ZERO problems. So if Harley has the lowest quality rating, those other make bikes must be really good in bed or something to outrank Harley.

 

[g56]

That magazine is the only true motorcycle consumer magazine, they accept no advertising at all, they are the only ones that truly report on the bikes they ride without any bias due to worrying about pleasing anyone, they don't have to worry about a company pulling their advertising since they don't accept any. Don't think they are biased against Harley, their founder was a die hard Harley rider, Roger Hull's Harley "Houndog" is on display in the AMA's Motorcycle Hall of Fame.

All they do is report what the Harley owners have told them, their own experiences with their bikes, the same with the JD Power surveys, it was the Harley owners that gave Harley the lowest score in quality compared to the other major brands on the American Market.

There have been a number of Honda's going well over 400,000 miles, but you won't find them in a museum anywhere, that's not considered a big deal for a Honda to last that long.

 

[fuel tanker man]

Hondas are nice bikes, and I've ridden several over the years and will probably own others. But the Valkyrie is the only thing Honda makes that approaches having a personality of its own. The only good looking bikes made by anyone other than Harley Davidson are bikes which are made to look as much like Harley Davidsons as possible. That may sound like a pompous statement, but its irrefutably true...

The cam bearing problems with the Twin Cam HD's made in 1999 and 2000 were certainly troublesome for some who owned those bikes. But that's quite an exception; the rule is that the Harley Davidsons from the last 15 to 20 years have been extremely reliable.

Now. The mass appeal of the Harley Davidson motorcycle in recent years (owing much to a marketing machine that makes Coca-Cola and John Deere look like rank amateurs) has resulted in many folks who should not be allowed to own a bicycle--let alone a motorcycle--owning and riding Harleys...
...and these are the types you're going to get ill informed feedback from, passed on through JD Power and other such rating entities.

What I'm saying is that when you see a clipped haired butchy looking wench with Harley Davidson shoes, Harley Davidson pants, a Harley Davidson t-shirt, Harley Davidson gloves, a Harley Davidson bandana, Harley Davidson earrings, necklace, etc., and a Harley Davidson cigarette case... you've got yourself one such person who will whine to JD Power that her kick stand didn't swing out properly which caused her to drop her Road King on its side (which is of course about 300 pounds too heavy for her in the first place). And of course her girlfriend had problems with her own Harley as well when one of the cylinders stopped firing and the bike had to be hauled in to the dealership. The mechanic simply replaced the plug wire which had been knocked loose from the coil during a frantic spasm of polishing the chrome coil cover.

So what I'm saying is there's a lot you're not factoring in here...

Dan

 

[Steve128]

A good friend stored his Harley with me for 1 1/2 years while away... and let me ride it for keeping it. Nothing like a free bike to ride. While I have a crotch rocket, I must admit, the FI on the Harley was perfect and I did find myself sneaking around the country side in slow mode on cool nights.

While the survey is what it is, maybe Harley owners being more "particular" than others and older responded to the survey in a stronger fashion.

The survey may be accurate but the questions had anomalies built/designed in which sway the data for poor reliability. Or maybe their subscribers are of a certain type.

G-Man and too many others have had positive results with late models for me to put great weight on their survey.

 

[GMBoy]

JD Powers surveys make me sick. I do not know of anyone who purchases a car or any product based on them. I do know that when a good result comes along, the manufacturers love to use it in advertising. The Buick Lesabre comes to mind. Remember all the advertising Buick did with that car when it topped the JD power lists?? Great car, but we all know about the manifold defect and such on the 3.8V6. The survey is about as worthless as those darn consumer report reviews. Add to this that a lot of the "new breed" of harley owner is usually not mechanically inclined at all so when they encounter some of the Harley traits we love - they complain and this upsets the JD Power score. Now for my last rant about JD power - remember when the Hummer H2 did poorly in the survey a few years back - it was because owners complained of poor gas milage - DUH! Yet this hurt the score enough to put the Hummer on the bad list.

I have been riding Harleys since Highschool, my first being a 1984 XLH1000cc ironhead Sportster. I still have it for sentimental reasons. Bike is 23 years old and the only thing done to it was a new clutch and it still doesn't leak oil and runs great. I now ride a Twin Cam Softail Duece and my wife rides a TC Dyna Lowrider. No troubles to report and quality meets my requirements. I know how to maintain the bikes - its the new yuppy class/weekend warrior buyer that has the dealers doing all the work that probably complain the most in a survey!

Enough of my rant. Carry on.

 

[g56]

The cam bearings problems started with the EVO engine, and became worse with the twin cam, according to the Harley specialist at the Motorcycle Mechanics Institute who wrote MCN's technical pages (at that time), it was a problem with quality control. Harley kept changing their story, they kept saying there wasn't a problem, but then would say it was confined to the 1999 and 2000 models, although the research done by Motorcycle Consumer News documented the problem still existed in the 2004 models when they did their report.

Jim Fueling*, highly regarded Harley tuner, and the builder of the W3 engine, said that the problem was caused by poor quality bearings, poor quality hardening on the cam surfaces and Harley's use of a cheap low volume oil pump that didn't deliver enough oil to the cam bearings, he said that changing to a higher volume oil pump would pretty much take care of the problems. Harley had claimed they had fixed the problem years ago, but the problems continued, and it wasn't till the 2007 models came out that they changed the cam bearings to a different type that would tolerate a lower oil flow, and started using a higher volume oil pump, so it sounds like they have finally fixed that problem.

The best engine Harley has going for it is the one designed by Porshe Engineering. I notice that Buell has resorted to a Rotax engine in one of their 2008 models and wonder why they didn't use the Porshe designed engine in that model, if they wanted more power, that engine has what it takes.

* Jim Fueling BIO

I guess this is just my imagination running wild:

Quote:

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TWIN CAM Troubles

It looks like the TC engines are having problems again in the cam shaft area. There are documented problems where the cam bearing support plate and cam bearings fail. This is occurs on stock bikes and modified bikes. When the problem occurs, it can result in catastrophic failure of the cams, cam bearings, cam support plate, cam chain tensioners, blown oil pump and lifters. The fix is very expensive, a failure is even more expensive.

If you have an aftermarket cam shafts, most Harley-Davidson Dealers are not covering this under warranty. There are two repair kits from Harley-Davidson that contain the parts to fix this problem.
Fuel injected models require part number 24984-99.
Carburetor models require part number 24985-99.
There is an extensive list of components is this repair kit including camshafts, cam bearings, cam bearing support plate, cam sprocket, cam chain, cam tensioner, oil pump, hydraulic lifters and gaskets.

A complete description of this problem was published in the December 2000 American Iron Magazine page 28.

Harley-Davidson Service Bulletin M-1100 "Cam Bearing Repair Kits" issued July 10, 2000 defines the problem and repair.


Twin Cam Troubles

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As mentioned above, this was finally addressed in the 2007 model engines.

.

 

[fuel tanker man]

"I guess this is just my imagination running wild..."

It's not your imagination, it's your gullibility that's the problem. Many of us here are very well tuned in to the mechanical issues which Harley Davidsons have, and the source you're quoting is simply wrong.

I know that you aren't trying to fabricate these things yourself, so I'm not maligning your credibility, only the credibility of the source you're quoting. They've obviously got a major problem with Harley Davidson for some reason, and they've resorted to the kinds of fabrications often seen from the Democrat left.

The "cam bearing problem" on the Evolution engines is totally unheard of. If they hadn't attempted to include Evolution engines in their smear, their hand would not have been tipped quite so obviously.

As far as the quality of individual bearings, produced by an outside source, failing in some individual models (and it was only a few 1999 and 2000 models which were affected by these bad bearings) that isn't a Harley Davidson QC issue; it's a matter of the supplier of the bearings not delivering quality parts.

Dan

 

[g56]

So you are basically saying that all these various entities, including a very pro-Harley website, all are wrong, and involved in some great conspiracy to smear Harley?

Motorcycle Consumer News
Motorcycle Mechanics Institute
Jim Fueling
Nightrider


Facts are facts, you can choose to ignore them if you want, but you are jousting at windmills when you deny the truth.

 

[mrsilv04]

All I can say, is that this is all quite entertaining.

However, it doesn't prove much.

Ride it like you stole it.

Yes, that's me.

 

[Steve128]

Quote:

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All I can say, is that this is all quite entertaining.

However, it doesn't prove much.

Ride it like you stole it.

Yes, that's me.

---

You Da Man

 

[wizzells]

Quote:

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"

The "cam bearing problem" on the Evolution engines is totally unheard of.

Dan

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Cam bearing problems are hardly "unheard of" in Evo's. We see them all the time. It is the number 1 failure in that particular engine. It's not the same problem associated with the early TC's, but it is cam bearing failure nonetheless. The load placed on the bearing in that application is very very high. You can count on them going out at 30-40k almost like clockwork, just like the lifters.

We are starting to see a slew of post-2000 TC's with inner cam bearing problems as well. We've had 3 in the last month that have failed on the front cylinder cam. Mileage varied from 20k-45k (all '05-newer). All of which have destroyed the engine cases, oil pump, cylinders, pistons, cams, cam chain support plate, and other parts internally. Bad stuff.
I will say that maintenance can't be blamed for at least 2 of those failures. Both guys are running 2500 OCI's.

We haven't seen too many '07 bike with high mileage to say if the new hydraulic cam chain tensioners will last longer.

 

[fuel tanker man]

Nine times out of 10, an Evo cam bearing failure is going to be due to aftermarket mods or poor maintenance. I know plenty of HD mechanics who will back that statement. If you're in the business, and if you'll be honest, you'll mention that for every unmodified Evo cam bearing failure you've seen you have seen more than twenty 1999 to 2000 model TC cam bearings fail. Continuing in that vein of honest introspection, you'll further note that unmodified Twin Cams outside the 1999 to 2000 year range models fail at a tiny fraction of the incidence that those two year models do. (Notwithstanding modified engines).

The rhetoric has been presented to try and make the case that Harley Davidsons have been plagued by inordinate numbers of cam bearing failures for the last 20 years. None of the pages which were linked above mentioned anything about common Evo cam bearing issues (that I noticed) and I saw nothing about post 2000 Twin Cam engines having common issues with the cam bearings.

I can go onto the 'net and troll around for "issues" with any motorcycle make you want to name, and drag that stuff over here and present a "case" that Hondas, Suzukis, BMW's, Triumphs, etc., are all plagued by mechanical concerns.

So...

If you really don't like Harley Davidsons, and you'd really rather ride something else...

get on your Honda and RIDE!!!

And one last thing...

You say, of Evoution cam bearings "You can count on them going out at 30-40k almost like clockwork, just like the lifters."

Clockwork? I can name at least two dozen Evo bikes with over 75,000 miles on them that... well... let's just say that they apparently aren't looking at the same clock you are.

If you're a mechanic, realize that you get to see the broken things in a grossly disproportionate ratio to things that have not broken. Right?

Dan

 

[g56]

I spend a lot of my time on the road.

 

[fuel tanker man]

If this is you my hat is off to you!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0nrMQ3QwyPo

Those guys rock...

 

[wizzells]

Quote:

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Nine times out of 10, an Evo cam bearing failure is going to be due to aftermarket mods or poor maintenance. I know plenty of HD mechanics who will back that statement. If you're in the business, and if you'll be honest, you'll mention that for every unmodified Evo cam bearing failure you've seen you have seen more than twenty 1999 to 2000 model TC cam bearings fail. Continuing in that vein of honest introspection, you'll further note that unmodified Twin Cams outside the 1999 to 2000 year range models fail at a tiny fraction of the incidence that those two year models do. (Notwithstanding modified engines).

The rhetoric has been presented to try and make the case that Harley Davidsons have been plagued by inordinate numbers of cam bearing failures for the last 20 years. None of the pages which were linked above mentioned anything about common Evo cam bearing issues (that I noticed) and I saw nothing about post 2000 Twin Cam engines having common issues with the cam bearings.

So...

If you really don't like Harley Davidsons, and you'd really rather ride something else...


And one last thing...

You say, of Evoution cam bearings "You can count on them going out at 30-40k almost like clockwork, just like the lifters."

Clockwork? I can name at least two dozen Evo bikes with over 75,000 miles on them that... well... let's just say that they apparently aren't looking at the same clock you are.

If you're a mechanic, realize that you get to see the broken things in a grossly disproportionate ratio to things that have not broken. Right?

Dan

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Dan,
Im very aware that modification is something that nearly goes without saying in the Harley world. I'm also very cognizant of the amount of modified and unmodified bikes that come into our shop that have cam bearing failures. I was simply stating my and our shop's observation when it comes to powertrain issues on big twins of the past 20+ years.

I can also name 2 dozen Evos that have lasted well past 40k miles without any issues. Is that to say they they have been perfect bikes for 40k miles? Probably not. Nor would I realistically expect mine or anyone else's bike to not have any problems in that amount of time. I could also point to at least 2 dozen others that have had engine issues. I'm not trying to badmouth Harley or their product...just trying to be very realistic about the issue.

So, do we see more Cam bearing failures on Twin cams now than Evos? Yes, because for every Evo we service these days there are probably 2-3 Twin cams that come in.
Do we see many 99-00 Twin cams coming in anymore for OUTER! cam bearing failure? No, because darn near all of them that failed or would fail have already done so and are fixed.

I've been entirely honest with everything I've said and it has been my observation of these problems occurring. You're right in that working in the service industry we see more of the problems. But in the same vein we see plenty of well maintained bikes that last 100K miles without skipping a beat. So we definetly see both sides of the spectrum.