Dyson Analysis Closed Cup Flashpoint vs. Fuel%

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As some of you know, in the RS4 oil monitoring program that I'm involved in, we've been tracking fuel dilution issues for about a year. In the process, I've collected a large amount of data on multiple engines, running multiple types of oil, in varying conditions. While looking at the data yesterday, I noticed that for a couple of samples, there was extremely good correlation between the closed cup flashpoint measurement that Terry Dyson's proprietary lab makes, and the their FTIR fuel dilution percentage measurements. So, I decided to plot the results, fully expecting to see a total mess, because of oil variation, equipment calibration issues, and consistency. I saw something better than I expected, and thought I'd share it with this forum. This is an unedited plot of fuel dilution and flashpoint across 48 UOA measurements on 16 RS4 engines, all running oil with starting VOA flashpoint that were very close, around 420-450F.

fuel%20vs%20flashpoint.jpg
 
Data plots that consistently trend-forming make data geeks happy! With that data, that lab COULD measure just one parameter and quite accurately calculate the other. Thanks for posting it.
 
I'm used to electronics where we measure properties with multiple types of instruments and techniques and strive for them to be consistent. What I love about this, is that it tells me that the lab is well calibrated and consistent.

I think BITOGer's have been missing a considerable clue to oil performance from UOAs that seem to not have correctly measured flashpoint and/or fuel dilution. Obviously, it is quite possible to do it correctly, and we should ask all labs to do so.
 
My Subaru turbo data points also fit on your curve. Fuel dilution of 1.8%, and a flash point of 265, with Pennzoil Platinum 5W30.
 
Wow - thanks for posting this. Makes for a handy better than ballpark reference. On the surface it does make some level of sense if the fuel remains the volatile compound in the mix.
 
1.68% Fuel, 275F Flash as reported on my last UOA done by Terry. Honda Odyssey 2005

Also.... from a Terry UOA of my new to me 96 BMW which I have yet to post, way back from Feb of this year ...

Fuel 2.5%, Flash 210F

I need not say more, Terry is the man.

RI, thanks for the plot.
 
So with that low of a flash point, if your oil got to 210F...what happens?? Sorry if that is a dumb question, but 210 seems like it would be an easy mark to make for oil.

Would it burn off some fuel and raise up the flashpoint??
 
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So with that low of a flash point, if your oil got to 210F...what happens?? Sorry if that is a dumb question, but 210 seems like it would be an easy mark to make for oil.

Would it burn off some fuel and raise up the flashpoint??




Yes, the oil will vaporize and burn. Depending on the influx of fuel, eventually the engine reaches homeostasis. For each engine and driving style, there is a steady-state fuel dilution level that will be reached. But, if the oil becomes chemically broken down, I think there can be a point of no return, where the oil starts burning off with the fuel. At that point, I think oil consumption will increase.

This may very well explain why some people see no oil consumption for a long time, and then suddenly report that the oil is down a quart in a few hundred miles of driving.
 
Good info, thanks RI. I think your point about oil consumption is a good one.
 
Quote:


1.68% Fuel, 275F Flash as reported on my last UOA done by Terry. Honda Odyssey 2005

Also.... from a Terry UOA of my new to me 96 BMW which I have yet to post, way back from Feb of this year ...

Fuel 2.5%, Flash 210F

I need not say more, Terry is the man.

RI, thanks for the plot.




When I first acquired this vehicle, I had a kit from Terry on hand, so I dropped the oil that the PO had been running.

Oil had 4100 miles on it based on invoice data.... stated oil was supposed to be Valvoline 15w40... Terry 'suspected' that the oil brand/weight itself was correct, but it had been sheared down to a 20 weight.

I don't mean to hijack the thread, my point in this post being that I have two very different vehicles, UOAs done many months apart and the lab work and data Terry has derived matches perfectly with that of the 16 stated engines depicted in the data plot with respect to fuel dilution.
Hats off to Terry.
btw.... the numbers from that BMW UOA.... not too bad looking at all.... a TBN of 5.4 after 4100 miles.

What would one have surmised had the fuel not been reported? This is why again, a tip of the hat goes to Terry!

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Thanks again to RI for sharing the info on the work you and Terry are doing
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Everyone who sees this should realize that the Flashpoint on this plot is Closed cup rather than open cup. If your lab uses the open cup method the reported flashpoint will be higher and would shift the line to the right by maybe 50 F.
 
RI - do you have info on the break-in methods used for the 16 RS4 engines? I take delivery of the 335i Sunday and am debating whether to follow the factory’s suggested easy going break-in vs. the heat cycle and WOT drive it like you stole it method.
 
This thread should be a good indicator of how serious Terry is - about staying away from this messageboard. Normally, he would added his two dollar opinions by now.
 
Quote:


I take delivery of the 335i Sunday and am debating whether to follow the factory’s suggested easy going break-in vs. the heat cycle and WOT drive it like you stole it method.





I'd like to here RI's opinion on this as well. From what I've read and learned over the last few years, all of my cars going forward will get WOT/heat cycle/cool down method.
 
Quote:


RI - do you have info on the break-in methods used for the 16 RS4 engines? I take delivery of the 335i Sunday and am debating whether to follow the factory’s suggested easy going break-in vs. the heat cycle and WOT drive it like you stole it method.




Reb, the method used varied across all the owners. Before I broke in mine, I read quite a bit and decided to remain within the parameters of the owner's manual. These days, if the engine breaks and you went over the break-in rev limits, your warranty can be denied, since the ECU logs this stuff. One of the things I'll point out is that you are not just breaking in the rings, your breaking in cams, cam chains, gears, differentials ... etc. Quite a few of these things should be allowed to break in over time.

Here's what the manual says, and what I did.

_____________________________________________________
Manual page 251

Up to 600 miles
- do not use full throttle
- the engine speed is not allowed to exceed a maximum of 6000 rpm

From 600 to 1200 miles
- do not use full throttle
- the engine speed is not allowed to exceed a maximum of 7000 rpm

From 1200 to 1500 miles
- Slowly and briefly increase the engine speed to 8250 rpm

Over 1500 miles
- you may now drive with an engine speed of 8250 rpm

___________________________________
Now read my break-in recommendations, and you'll see that the fall within the letter of the Audi requirements.

The owner's manual contains some hard RPM and throttle position limits up to 1200 miles. (6000 rpm up to 600 miles, 7000 rpm up to 1200 miles, no full throttle until 1200 miles, and then only occasionally until 1500 miles) Within those limits the engine can still be wrung out pretty hard. (Torque peaks at 5500 rpm.) This type of engine, with Alusil cylinder walls, needs to have some serious power applied to the rings in hard acceleration and deceleration, in order to properly seat the rings in their grooves and against the cylinder walls. Deceleration using compression breaking is extremely helpful during the process, since it reverses the loads on the pistons and rings and allows all surfaces to wear-in well.

WOT is also very bad for this engine when it's not broken in. Mixture enrichment during WOT will blow-by into the oil and contaminate it. I generally recommend 3/4 throttle maximum until 1200 miles.

Remember, also, that this engine, by design, is not fully broken in until between 7K and 10K miles, due to the hard silicon cylinder walls.

I will point out that maximum piston ring forces occur at maximum engine torque, which is about 5500 rpm. This falls within even the early < 600 mile break-in RPM limit. You just aren't supposed to go to full throttle yet ... but, nothing in the manual says you can't get ---- close.

The key is to run the engine up hard, to maximize the ring/cylinder wall forces under acceleration, and then to allow the engine to use full compression breaking, to reverse those forces. This allows the rings to fully wear into the piston grooves and to lap themselves against the cylinder walls. This is much easier to do when the engine is young. As it gets older, deposits in the ring grooves can prevent full seating.

I broke in my engine fast and hard, within the RPM and throttle guidelines in the manual, with 2nd and 3rd gear hard acceleration and engine compression deceleration, after complete engine warmup, followed by cooldown, constant cruising in 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th gears, and then repeating the hard acceleration. I did this every time I took the car out during the break in period, to seat the rings and wear-in the cylinder walls, which are hard silicon. At 1800 miles I changed the oil and filter.

Here are my oil consumption results:

1.5 Qts/1800 miles -- factory oil

Zero Qts/(1800 to 5000 miles) -- Elf Excellium LDX 5W-40

Zero Qts/(5000 to 6400 miles) -- Motul E-tech 8100 0W-40

Using an aggressive break-in regime will reduce oil consumption over the life of the engine, and increase maximum power output. I have had no oil consumption since changing out the factory oil at 1800 miles.

BTW, unless you over rev the engine, the most violent time your engine ever sees is those first few seconds after cold start. This is when wear is at it's highest. This is also why you want to start her, and drive her away, so that the engine and oil can warm as quickly as possible. Racing engines have dry sump heaters and pumps to bring the oil up to operating temperature and pressure prior to starting.
 
I just drove by there after dropping my daughter off at JWU Labor Day weekend. Tried to get to the beach and it was PACKED! Ended up going around to Judith Point and coming back up to Scarborough beach.
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To keep this on topic, I drove my car to RI to burn off fuel to help with dilution.
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-Dennis
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Wow - thanks for posting this. Makes for a handy better than ballpark reference. On the surface it does make some level of sense if the fuel remains the volatile compound in the mix.


exactly what I was thinking.
 
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