I like them because they make oncoming vehicles more visible whenever it's not sunny out.
Baahaahaahaahaahaahaa!
Daytime running lamps-Opinions
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I like them because they make oncoming vehicles more visible whenever it's not sunny out.
Baahaahaahaahaahaahaa!
I recall reading someplace that GM has spec'ed a different bulb because of short lamp life of the original spec'ed bulbs.
This might me the TSB: 00-08-42-010A JUN 03
I can't locate the text of the bulletin.
Kestas
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I had a colleague work with one of the bulb engineers on this issue. DRL run on reduced voltage, and the upshot of the investigation was that this reduced voltage causes some kind of filament material whisker growth, resulting in a shorter bulb life that wouldn't normally occur at full power.
Probably something to do with the halogen cycle:
http://www.donsbulbs.com/cgi-bin/r/d.pl/tungsten_halogen_cycle.html
http://www.donsbulbs.com/cgi-bin/r/d.pl/tungsten_halogen_cycle.html
GM vechicles that are North American, etc. and Subarus are sold in most countries in the world without DRLs.
Why? Becasue DRLs don't meet standards. Sorry for taking so long to reply. I haven't read this thread in ages.
In countries that allow DRLs, they are required to be less than low beams and dipped. i.e. they can't be shining in your face, simply ambient light. Most cars sold in Europe have a DRL setting that is for parking or rain weather.
Here in the USA, we completely miss the point. Awareness is not a good thing when:
1-it distracts you from the car's motion. i.e. you get target focus and not follow the car's path. This is not safe. There are many studies confirming this.
2-They use 50% high beams. These are EXTREMELY bright in many cars (Highlander, Saturns, Lexus, etc.) because they are aimed wrong for regular driving. This problem is especially bad when on pickups,SUVs, and minivans with a load in the back and the beams are now pointed up.
3-You can't see pedestrians cross when they are between the glare of the headlights. I was stopped in front of school bus and DRL 50% high beam car appeared. Couldn't see the kid crossing for 10 sec in the glare. Hence, the illegal nature in most countries - lighting is very specific in terms of what is acceptable. Non-aimed fog lights are sold here in the US - not allowed elsewhere. NHTSA has told both GM and Toyota to reduce their DRL brightness on many vehicles due to glare.
4-Can't see turn signals on some vehicles. Even when the lights turn off briefly.
DRLs were instituted in Sweden when they switched from right hand drive to left hand drive to distinguish lanes. Volvo used them for marketing reasons and Saab and Subaru copoied them - only for the US market. Ford (who owns Volvo) even admits there is no plausable study that proves they have any value.
All this is a feel good for yourself item at the expense of the rest of the drivers.
Why? Becasue DRLs don't meet standards. Sorry for taking so long to reply. I haven't read this thread in ages.
In countries that allow DRLs, they are required to be less than low beams and dipped. i.e. they can't be shining in your face, simply ambient light. Most cars sold in Europe have a DRL setting that is for parking or rain weather.
Here in the USA, we completely miss the point. Awareness is not a good thing when:
1-it distracts you from the car's motion. i.e. you get target focus and not follow the car's path. This is not safe. There are many studies confirming this.
2-They use 50% high beams. These are EXTREMELY bright in many cars (Highlander, Saturns, Lexus, etc.) because they are aimed wrong for regular driving. This problem is especially bad when on pickups,SUVs, and minivans with a load in the back and the beams are now pointed up.
3-You can't see pedestrians cross when they are between the glare of the headlights. I was stopped in front of school bus and DRL 50% high beam car appeared. Couldn't see the kid crossing for 10 sec in the glare. Hence, the illegal nature in most countries - lighting is very specific in terms of what is acceptable. Non-aimed fog lights are sold here in the US - not allowed elsewhere. NHTSA has told both GM and Toyota to reduce their DRL brightness on many vehicles due to glare.
4-Can't see turn signals on some vehicles. Even when the lights turn off briefly.
DRLs were instituted in Sweden when they switched from right hand drive to left hand drive to distinguish lanes. Volvo used them for marketing reasons and Saab and Subaru copoied them - only for the US market. Ford (who owns Volvo) even admits there is no plausable study that proves they have any value.
All this is a feel good for yourself item at the expense of the rest of the drivers.
The dipped beam is the low beam. According to the Saab 93 Workshop Information System(WIS), anyhow. Also according to WIS the Saab 93 uses the dipped beam at full brightness for DRLs in all markets where DRLs are enabled, including Sweden.
The DRL function you mention is known as "city lights" and I would not drive in the rain with these. They're really dim. I suspect most German drivers wouldn't either. They'd use their dipped-beam headlights.
While I'm on that subject, I think the rear foglight is a good thing to have on in the rain--sometimes you just can't see a car's taillights in heavy rain.
Just to clarify - European cars sold in the USA do not have the same lights as in Europe. The regs in Europe are much more defined in what the aiming, intensity, cut off angles, fog light use, etc. are. My BMW uses US style reflectors, plastic lenses, and bulbs (9004) and the Euro version uses glass lights with very defined patterns. The for lights have to be aimed from the factory with a certain pattern. Apples and oranges. They don't use the Euro lights here, because they are not DOT approved and the Euro regs and NHTSA don't want to harmonize for politcal reasons. US made cars sold for export have to have EU spec lights all around to be sold there.
And how old is your BMW? Headlamp regulations in the US have changed in recent years. Perhaps the most noticeable impact of the change is that newer US headlights are visually aimable--gone are the 3 pips for a Hoppy mechanical aimer.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos...p;output=gplain
This is true for the 2006 Saab 93.
Both the European and US versions of the 2006 Saab 93 use H7 bulbs for the main and dipped beam. Both include the city lights in the headlamp housing. Both have plastic lenses. Both are visually aimable. Neither have side-markers incorporated into the assembly. I just checked and the lenses are stamped "E1".
Incidentally, I have noticed that the Toyota DRLs which apparently operate off the high beams are quite annoying to see in your rearview.
Some GM vehicles such as the 2004 Chevrolet Malibu Classic are using the low beams through a resistor as the DRLs. See:
http://www.gmtcny.com/daytime_running_light_startegies.htm
Cars that use low beams for DRLs do not bother me--low beams don't bother me at night, so they certainly wouldn't bother me during the day. I typically do not need to flip the rearview to "night" mode unless someone behind me has a mis-aimed headlight or their high beams on.
Some GM vehicles such as the 2004 Chevrolet Malibu Classic are using the low beams through a resistor as the DRLs. See:
http://www.gmtcny.com/daytime_running_light_startegies.htm
Cars that use low beams for DRLs do not bother me--low beams don't bother me at night, so they certainly wouldn't bother me during the day. I typically do not need to flip the rearview to "night" mode unless someone behind me has a mis-aimed headlight or their high beams on.
brianl703, thanks for the donsbulb.com halogen cycle post. I have an 03 MB E320 which has low beam DRLs that can be activated/inactivated by the user (me) changing the lighting settings on the car. These DRLs are not blinding, but I have had to replace an H7 low beam bulb at least once a year. I had left the DRLs on thinking this was worth it safety wise, but reading http://www.lightsout.org/index.html changed my mind. I also wondered why the glass was clear on the burned out bulbs which the donsbulb.com link answered for me.
Changing the low beam is a moderately difficult job for me to do because of limited access, especially on one side of the car.
I will just turn on the lights whenever it is not bright sunshine out (I am in Florida), just like I used to do on my previous cars.
Changing the low beam is a moderately difficult job for me to do because of limited access, especially on one side of the car.
I will just turn on the lights whenever it is not bright sunshine out (I am in Florida), just like I used to do on my previous cars.
I changed my mind and decided to leave the lights in the Auto position in case I forget to turn them on. Since part of the instrument cluster on my car is always backlit, this removes one of the main visual cues for me to manually turn on the lights; a dark and difficult to read instrument cluster.
The high beam DRL's I find annoying at times because they are too bright and visually distracting, not so much during bright sunshine but during low light conditions when there is still enough ambient light to keep the system from switching from DRL mode to night mode (running lights on - low beams on)
The high beam DRL's I find annoying at times because they are too bright and visually distracting, not so much during bright sunshine but during low light conditions when there is still enough ambient light to keep the system from switching from DRL mode to night mode (running lights on - low beams on)
Well, just read thru the whole thread and I really don't find any reasonable, factual, or common sense reason not to have DRLs
Some of the negatives just don't stand-up:
1. Bad for driving at a drive-in movie. Not enough of those left for it to matter.
2. Blinds people in the house when I come home late. I don't get this, are they in the windows with binos?
3. People get to used to seeing the DRLs and therefore start ignoring that the car is even there. Uh...yea.. so because I see the same yellow bus everyday I don't pay attention to it and it is virtually invisible now?
4. They blind me. You must have a hellish time at night.
5. The bulbs burn out faster. Maybe true but you know what? If you never drove at night they'd last forever. So would your wiper blades if you never drove in the rain.
None of these stand up as being legitimate for the majority. Now, as for the positives, I will admit that I will notice a DRL equipped car long before a non-equipped car in any weather.
To me the biggest reason to have them?
There are to many drivers who obviously don't feel they need to turn on their lights in foul weather, period. In a severe downpour driving down the road, look in the mirror and tell me what is easier to see? Yes, the switch is there but that doesn't mean people will be smart enough to use it.
Perfect set-up: A properly aimed (E-code)automatic headlamp system. That way, when it gets dark, the full lights come on by themselves.
OBBOP-- Don't worry, I got your back at the bike rack.
Some of the negatives just don't stand-up:
1. Bad for driving at a drive-in movie. Not enough of those left for it to matter.
2. Blinds people in the house when I come home late. I don't get this, are they in the windows with binos?
3. People get to used to seeing the DRLs and therefore start ignoring that the car is even there. Uh...yea.. so because I see the same yellow bus everyday I don't pay attention to it and it is virtually invisible now?
4. They blind me. You must have a hellish time at night.
5. The bulbs burn out faster. Maybe true but you know what? If you never drove at night they'd last forever. So would your wiper blades if you never drove in the rain.
None of these stand up as being legitimate for the majority. Now, as for the positives, I will admit that I will notice a DRL equipped car long before a non-equipped car in any weather.
To me the biggest reason to have them?
There are to many drivers who obviously don't feel they need to turn on their lights in foul weather, period. In a severe downpour driving down the road, look in the mirror and tell me what is easier to see? Yes, the switch is there but that doesn't mean people will be smart enough to use it.
Perfect set-up: A properly aimed (E-code)automatic headlamp system. That way, when it gets dark, the full lights come on by themselves.
OBBOP-- Don't worry, I got your back at the bike rack.
Duso02, you didn't mention in your list what I feel is the biggest drawback to DRL which I feel is that is makes motorcyclists, cyclists and pedestrians less safe. I read somewhere that motorcyclists are going to lobby for allowing their headlamp to flash on and off to make up for the fact that their daytime headlamps now blend into the crowd. Pedestrians/cyclists I feel are less safe because the DRL (especially of the high beam type) are powerful enough to attract, thus powerful enough to distract.
I find that the some of the high beam DRLs can be quite distracting (you are right that my choice of blinding is a poor choice of a word) when light conditions are dim, but not low enough to cause the automatic lamp system to turn on the low beams and running lamps.
I find that the some of the high beam DRLs can be quite distracting (you are right that my choice of blinding is a poor choice of a word) when light conditions are dim, but not low enough to cause the automatic lamp system to turn on the low beams and running lamps.
You are entitled to your opinion.
Studies have shown they are ineffective, except in very flat areas over a long distance - like the plains in the USA or Canada. Otherwise, they are a negative. There is no reason use them otherwise. Visual noise. You need to be in control of your lights at all times. Why a 4000 lb car needs DRLs is beyond me. Lights ain't gonna help if your aren't paying attention.
Factual in your view or not, they are annoying and distracting from the car's motion path. This is it. Why should the rest of us have to deal with it?
There is no argument that has common sense that shows they are needed.
The brightness is in the context of daylight and how they are aimed. Why not just drive with higheams all day? Becasue it is irresponsible and dangerous. Nightime lighting and glare to eye sensitivity has zero to do with DRLs.
When some moron forgets to dim their high beams and/or leaves their "fog lights" on all the time, yes I do have a hard time of it at night! Conversely, when some considerate driver just uses their low beams (or dims to low beams as soon as they see my lights), I have a reasonably easy time at night.
The thing is, DRLs themselves are a so-so idea.
But using the HIGH BEAMS as the DRLs (like some car makers seem to want to do) is a just plain STUPID IDEA IMHO. And yes, such "high beam" DRLs do IMHO make it more DANGEROUS, because the eyes naturally wince away from the lights. So while you see something is there slightly quicker (a slight benefit), you also have a much harder time tracking where that car is (do to your eyes trying to protect themselves from the glare of the high beams) when it gets close to you (a significant bad thing, that more than outweighs the slight good, above).
None-the-less, it is a noticeable added repair cost. If there were clear-cut safety benefits, the extra costs might be justified. However, it appears that the safety issue is much more of a mixed bag (with some extra bright DRLs actually making things MORE DANGEROUS). And as such, the costs are a more significant part of the cost/benefit analysis, as the benefits are more iffy than at first thought.
And while we are on the subject of costs, you forgot to mention the extra FUEL used to power the headlights all the time. Yes, I said EXTRA FUEL that feeds our country's need for so many gas imports. Remember, electricity comes from the alternator, and the alternator gets its power from mechanical drag on the engine. So turning on your headlights lowers your fuel economy some (in some cars as much as 3mpg lower) vs just leaving them off. Now, it is true that for a single driver, that the extra fuel used might be fairly minimal, but throughout the country that extra fuel can really add up (resulting in significant additional imports being needed). And while it's true that you sometimes NEED the headlights for safety (at night for example), it still is a little wasteful to have them on (and therefore paying the extra fuel costs) when they aren't really needed/helpful for car safety purposes...
But have you ever noticed that your eyes shy away from looking directly at a car running its high beams (even if/when those high beams are just the DRLs)? I know I have! And that shying away from looking at the car isn't usually going to cause an accident, it none-the-less makes things more dangerous than they otherwise would be (as you lose some of your ability to know where other traffic is, if you can't look at those cars without squinting/wincing due to their extra bright lights)!
Ah. Try to design the systems for moronic drivers, eh?
If that's the theory, please design (and make mandatory on all cars with fog lights) a system that prevents a moron from turning on their "fog lights" when the weather is clear. I don't know how many times jerks have left those "fog lights" on (during fair weather), momentarily blinding virtually every other motorist on the road! Even if it's nighttime, the "fog lights" aren't supposed to be left on, they are to be treated in the same way you use your high beams (i.e. turn them off, when oncoming traffic is there, especially when it's clear out)! Yet, many jerks just act as if leaving them on all the time is the proper way to drive.
OTOH I personally go with the theory that a driver should know what their car is doing. In which case, simply having decent MANUAL controls to control the car (including the lights) makes perfect sense. But then again, I suppose I'm a little unusual, as I've driven a stick-shift all my life, so I'm used to being comfortable with my car's controls. And I admit that a good fraction of the drivers on the road would #### their pants), if they had to drive a car that EXPECTS you to control it (vs these "automatic" cars, where they aren't expected to think)...
You must drive on different roads than I do. Since many of the so-called DRLs fail to also turn on the TAIL LIGHTS, I often find the cars with DRLs to be MORE DANGEROUS (and harder to see) in such conditions (because the DRLs only help to see them from the front). Conversely, almost everyone that doesn't have automatic DRLs will either turn on their headlights or their secondary lights in such situations, making them EASIER to see than the DRL folks (because their lights ALSO include the TAIL lights, making them visible from the back as well)!
BTW: In such situations, I usually turn on my secondary lights (i.e. every external light EXCEPT my headlights). My rule of thumb is to leave all lights off in bright daylight (after all, if they can't see a bright red car in the daylight, they aren't looking), turn on just my secondary external lights (i.e. my indicator/tail/etc lights) in marginal situations (so I can be seen better), and only turn on my headlights when they actually are needed to see the ground (i.e. at night, or very heavy overcast).
Again, it seems like the "safety equipment" is following the dubious approach of designing systems to take the THINKING out of driving. And while this may help a little bit in some cases, it can also lead to less attentive drivers (which can actually make things more dangerous).
That said, I can see some point to your "fully automatic" system, if it ALSO addressed some of the worst issues of DRLs. This would mean that any DRLs out there should be designed to be bright enough to see, but not so bright and/or badly aimed so as to blind (even momentarily) other drivers. And the DRLs should also not waste significant fuel in this day and age, which argues for energy efficient lights. And so people don't have to replace their lights much more often than before, the DRL portion of their lights should be designed to last a VERY LONG TIME.
Guess what? There really is a technology that can do all of those things, but many car makers still don't use it due to cheapness with initial purchase cost. You know what it is? High intensity LED lights (for every external car light, except the headlights themselves). Properly done, such lights (while still not quite bright enough for use as main headlights) will last longer than most cars, be easy for other drivers to see (and often BRIGHTER than the external indicator lights they replace), and use a fraction as much electricity (and therefore waste a fraction as much fuel) as more traditional lighting. But OTOH while proper LED lights are cheaper/better over the life of the car, they none-the-less cost a little more "upfront" (so car makers still skimp on build costs, even though the driver could easily save that money back over the lifetime of the vehical).
So, since you are so into "mandating" things, why not mandate that all new cars have to come with LED lighting? After all, the benefits of proper LED lighting (which include bulbs that rarely burn out, lower energy costs to run them, not to mention quicker on/off times) are much more clear-cut than the benefits of mandating DRLs...
I just read this again and really want to add to this.
I just came back from chattanooga tn yesterday. I had a p/u that had lights on that where from h***. I then turned on my yellow light that has two strobe lights in it.(I escort big trucks among other things) so I use lights on top while doing this.) this guy falls back as he is blinded by my strobes. as he got closer I switched them back on and he backed off. Now why does he need lights on? the book tells you to run only 2 lights not 4.(now adays they are two but have high beams in them) my guess is that they are beating off inside the truck and have on that fog inside the windshield because it sure isn't outside.
I sold my m/c because alot of people would just pull out in front of you no matter the headlight is on on m/c's. I realize that 55 mpg isn't worth getting killed over. alot of bikers are using three lights on there m/c's. I hate that also. again the manual states lights on not HIGH BEAM on m/c's.
I have finally decided for you drivers that want to blind me with your fancy toys and think that I can see you better because you have other lights, I am going down and getting a pair of foglights and will intentionally adjust them to go directly in oncoming traffics eyes. I figured you can't see out without those lights maybe a little help with my lights you'll be able to see better.
btw,, in heavy rain, I use amber vision glasses as that knocks down all glares and you can see any taillights on or not.
having a class a cdl lic I run across a lot of cars and alot of cars lights are out of alignment. I really don't have a problem with people no adjusting thier lights, I just don't like more lights than needed.
I'm total agreement, you need to learn how to drive your car, not let the car drive you. Many don't know how to drive a standard just automatics. now where is the fun in that??
I saw a bumper sticker on a car and it said....
drive like you own the car...not the road.
I just came back from chattanooga tn yesterday. I had a p/u that had lights on that where from h***. I then turned on my yellow light that has two strobe lights in it.(I escort big trucks among other things) so I use lights on top while doing this.) this guy falls back as he is blinded by my strobes. as he got closer I switched them back on and he backed off. Now why does he need lights on? the book tells you to run only 2 lights not 4.(now adays they are two but have high beams in them) my guess is that they are beating off inside the truck and have on that fog inside the windshield because it sure isn't outside.
I sold my m/c because alot of people would just pull out in front of you no matter the headlight is on on m/c's. I realize that 55 mpg isn't worth getting killed over. alot of bikers are using three lights on there m/c's. I hate that also. again the manual states lights on not HIGH BEAM on m/c's.
I have finally decided for you drivers that want to blind me with your fancy toys and think that I can see you better because you have other lights, I am going down and getting a pair of foglights and will intentionally adjust them to go directly in oncoming traffics eyes. I figured you can't see out without those lights maybe a little help with my lights you'll be able to see better.
btw,, in heavy rain, I use amber vision glasses as that knocks down all glares and you can see any taillights on or not.
having a class a cdl lic I run across a lot of cars and alot of cars lights are out of alignment. I really don't have a problem with people no adjusting thier lights, I just don't like more lights than needed.
I'm total agreement, you need to learn how to drive your car, not let the car drive you. Many don't know how to drive a standard just automatics. now where is the fun in that??
I saw a bumper sticker on a car and it said....
drive like you own the car...not the road.
well I just put on some bright off road lights on the front of my truck for people who can't see. maybe they will be able to see when I flip these on. I never use them other than making others see better. I have no problem seeing myself. I realize that some cars cannot get their drl's off but it is for those that use them to blind people, like m/cs that use 3 high beam lights.
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