Jet turbine engine oils

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Jul 27, 2006
Messages
2,631
Location
Southwest Virginia
Hello all,

Actually, I'm sure anyone is out there since there hasn't been a post for over a month
smile.gif
, so I thought I would start one.

My company manufactures the polyol esters used in most of the jet turbines engines in the world, both military and commercial. We also formulate finished synthetic turbine oils for military applications such as MIL-PRF-23699 and MIL-PRF-7808. Just thought I would see if anyone had any burning questions about these products where I could be helpful.

Tom
 
a blend formula would be nice.
crackmeup.gif


what are the condeming limits on jet oils?
TAN ,metals, particel count etc??
bruce
 
Hi Bruce,

Would you like my customer list and pricing as well?
laugh.gif
Actually a formula would do you no good as the approvals are critical and take years.

UOA is taken care of by the users (airlines and military) and they each have their own standards. In general, the OCI for commercial jets runs some 20-30,000 hours or 6-10 years, but they are topped off frequently so the oil is constantly turning over. Military engines average about 600 hours OCI. UOA is used mainly to spot sudden changes or trends in the engine as opposed to oil degradation. The sumps are usually 7-10 gallons.

VOA has no metals (totally ashless) and a TAN of 1.0 max. There is no particle count requirement, but there is a limit of 1 mg sediment per quart on a 1.2 micron paper. The oils are entirely polyol ester based (93-97%) and very light in visocsity, 3-5 cSt @ 100C, and would be a 0W-10 if there was such a thing.

Tom
 
Quote:


The oils are entirely polyol ester based (93-97%) and very light in visocsity, 3-5 cSt @ 100C, and would be a 0W-10 if there was such a thing.





Incredible. Now I know why RL uses POE's for racing.

Tom, I take it esters are the only chemical that can withstand this type of condition. Are Polyolesters the preferred choice or are their other esters that are also used/beneficial as well? Thanks.
 
""Would you like my customer list and pricing as well? Actually a formula would do you no good as the approvals are critical and take years.""
 
Quote:


""Would you like my customer list and pricing as well? Actually a formula would do you no good as the approvals are critical and take years.""




STUPID me no edit button anyway.

""Would you like my customer list and pricing as well? Actually a formula would do you no good as the approvals are critical and take years.""

Formulary info would be good for industrial turbines and or compressors
altho you guys make the finished product I like to go my own.

I did want the "new" freon compatible ester used in HVAC commercial and auto and I guess it is already "sold" by some other guys and I can not get any or it was a big deal to do so, I dropped the idea.
bruce
 
Hi Bruce,

Actually most of our business is pure ester base oils. We can't talk business on the forum, but you might want to give me a call (my contact info is on our website) or drop me a private message.

Tom
 
Hi Buster,

The specifications for jet engine oils do not require polyol esters, but virtually every jet engine around the world flys strictly on fully POE based oils because nothing else works. Even just a few percent PAO would cause problems - the difference in performance is that big. Oxidation stability and deposit tendencies are the biggest challenge in these hot engines and POEs can take both the sump temperatures of over 400F as well as the hot spots that cause liquid and vapor phase deposits. In addition they have to flow at -65F and allow restarting at -40F.

Diesters were used in the 1950s but the market converted to POEs in the early 1960s, and will likely stay there for decades to come. There is no other chemistry in the pipeline.

Tom
 
Quote:


.... The specifications for jet engine oils do not require polyol esters, but virtually every jet engine around the world flys strictly on fully POE based oils because nothing else works. ....




Except, of course, for the Mobil 1 PAO-based lubricant for ex-Soviet jets and gas turbines.

The assumption of the East German gas-turbine helicopters and Mig-29 fighters into the unified German Air Force led to a requirement for a non-POE aviation lubricant.

Mobil Turbo 319A-2 was the result.
 
Hi Mickey,

Yes I agree, that's why I said "virtually" every jet engine in the world.
smile.gif
Some of the old Soviet engines ran on a PAO type hydrocarbon/diester product called IPM-10 and some others ran on a diester oil. These are dying out and new engines run POEs. The Soviets required that those oils be manufactured in the Soviet Union for security reasons, but the Germans would not have such a requirement as they buy their turbine oils from USA and European manufacturers.

Tom
 
Ok, here's one for you.
What is in 7808 that make my hand break out with little bumps that itch like mad? I ware gloves but some times I touch it with out knowing.
Would it be the POE base or the addtives?
 
Hi Oil Pan,

Never heard of that with 7808. I,ve heard of skin reactions from the phosphate type hydraulic fluids used in commercial jets such as Skydrol, but not from the turbine oils. The POE base oils are similar in structure to vegetable oils and considered non-hazardous, so my guess is that you may have an extreme sensitivity to one of the additives. Best bet is to avoid contact if you believe the oil is the cause, including 23699 which has similar additives.

Tom
 
Tom: Always wondered what the difference was with the different turbine oils. Not brands, but type. You have oils for commercial jet engines, helicopters, turbo props, etc. They are all turbine engines, what's the difference.

Also, is there that much difference between brands as Mobil, Exxon, BP, and Shell. All seem to be big players in this area.

Thanks for all the info.
 
Hi Johnny,

For aviation or aviation derived gas turbines requiring POE synthetics, there are two basic types of oil, each with some sub-categories.

MIL-PRF-7808 (military spec) oils are designed for lower temperature environments such as arctic/Antarctic military bases. These oils are often referred to as "3 Centistoke" or 3 cSt oils because of their viscosity at 100C, but more important is their viscosity at -51C for cold starting. 7808 oils are used mainly by militaries, US (Air Force) and many foreign as well. They are sometimes also used in commercial APUs which have to re-start at altitude.

The other and larger type is MIL-PRF-23699 oils or "5 Centistoke" (5 cSt) oils. These have a starting viscosity of -40C and are used by the US Navy, Army and other branches, as well as foreign. The US Military uses about twice as much 23699 as they do 7808, but the biggest users by far are commercial airlines where they are used exclusively.

Most military buyers purchase against the appropriate military specs only, except some (Europe) who approve by brand. Commercial airlines, however, also require approvals for each engine model from the engine builders, and this process costs millions and takes up to ten years to complete the various bench and flight testing. For this reason, there are only three serious marketers to the airlines - Air BP (was Exxon), ExxonMobil (was Mobil), and Shell.

The 7808 oil has two sub-categories, 3 cSt and 4 cSt, but the 3 cSt dominates and both are scheduled to be replaced in a few years with a new specification for 5 cSt. Turns out the AF discovered it does not really get cold enough at their worse bases to require 3 cSt oils, so they will move to a 5 cSt oil and hopefully will have a unified spec with the rest of the armed forces.

The 23699 type has three sub-categories called STD (standard), C/I (corrosion inhibited, i.e. same as STD but with rust protection), and HTS (high thermal stability, designed for hot problem and future engines). The US Armed Forces use mostly the C/I type, but small quantities of STD and HTS are also used for special circumstances.

Commercial oils are mostly of the STD and HTS type plus OEM approvals. They don't have the rust problems that the Navy suffers, and have more hot running engines needing HTS than the military (more concern with fuel efficiency, long hauls, and long OCIs).

A new specification was issued by the SAE last year intended for commercial use called AS5780. This spec encompasses the 23699 spec but adds more tests required by commercial engine builders. Additional engine and flight evaluations, however, are still required before use. This spec has two sub-categories, SPC (standard performance capability) and HPC (high performance capability) corresponding closely with the military STD and HTS classes.

Helicopter and turboprop engines operate under higher loads due to the gears and usually need a different oil. Most helicopters work fine with the standard 23699 oils, but those needing more wear protection use a MIL-PRF-85734 oil, also known as a “DoD” (department of defense) oil. These oils are essentially the same as the 23699 oils except they contain a small dose of an EP additive to boost load carrying. Since this additive tends to eat certain seals, these oils have their own spec as opposed to just a sub-category under 23699. Turboprop turbines generally use a heavier oil, 7.5 cSt, to cope with the higher loads from gear reduction.

The formulations used for military spec oils and commercial oils are very similar and most military approved oils would work quite fine in commercial operation as well. The difference is commercial oils must have higher proof of their worthiness, especially since commercial operation is different than military, so engine builder approval is required. The FAA considers the oil to be part of the engine and imposes responsibility on the builders.

There are differences among the major brands of commercial oils, especially with respect to deposits. The Air BP 2197 (HPC) is generally considered to be the cleanest oil in the field and the target for all new development. Among the SPC oils there are differences in deposit tendencies, load carrying, seal compatibility, approvals, and cost, so airlines have to consider all properties for their fleets to determine best value.

Sorry for the long post – probably more than you wanted to know but sometimes it’s hard to stop when I get started.
smile.gif


Tom
 
That is what I what I wat thinking.
POE and PAO are some what non toxic.
This took a long time to start happening.
We have an almost pure PAO fulid, I don't think that dose any thing to me.
But 83282 PAO based (I think) has addtives.
That stuff is the worse.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top