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ATF Fluids #729268
02/12/03 08:11 PM
02/12/03 08:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,234
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline OP
MolaKule  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,234
Iowegia - USA
I posted this in another thread but this may be of interest to the whole board. I have made some minor additions to it.


The main requirements of an ATF are thermal stability and friction modification (lubrication), with some anti-wear additive for the Sun, lock-up, and Planetary Gears, and of course, the needle/pin bearings. Add about 0.05% of anti-foamants (siloxanes) and some red dye for leak identification, and you have an special Hydraulic Oil called, 'ATF.' The formulator will tweak the additive package for each base oil type (group) or mixes of base oils.


Here is the chemistry for an ATF such as Dexron III:
(Average additive concentration by wt.% taken from seven (7) different additive packages)

Phosphorous - 0.3% AW additive
Zinc - 0.23% AW additive, anti-oxidant as ZDDP
Nitrogen - 0.9% AW additive
Boron - 0.16% Detergent and AW additive
Calcium - 0.05% Detergent/Dispersant, tbn base chemistry
Magnesium - 0.05% Detergent and base chemistry
Sulfur - 0.55% FM and AW
Barium - various% used as particlate control

In the newer ATF oils of Group II-III, added esters of lineoleic esters, TMP polyol ester, and PE polyol ester, and other carboxylic esters, act as FM additives. The Additives phosphorous, sulfur, and boron are usually added in the form of esters when formulated with the base oil. For fully synthetic oils, the PAO and polyol ester bases are the main Friction Modifiers.

The Mercon chemistries usually have higher concentrations of nitrogen and phosphorous.

Boron and Phosphorous act as the main AW additives if the ZDDP is low or non-existent.

Calcium and magnesium are, of course, base metals and provide the "basicity" to keep acids in check and provide the starting tbn.

It has been found that ZDDP will turn the red-dyed ATF brown through oxidation, so some formulators have reduced or taken out the ZDDP and replaced it with other AW additives.

[ February 18, 2003, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: Patman ]

Re: ATF Fluids #729269
02/13/03 12:57 AM
02/13/03 12:57 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 18,221
Elizabethtown, Pa
Al Online content
Al  Online Content
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 18,221
Elizabethtown, Pa
The Boron (high), Calcium (low), and magnesium(low) seem out of wack. [I dont know] It would seem that all ATF's would have some fatty acids like tri-gliceried esters, or liquid wax esters that ATF's did not have in 10 years ago?? Can you shed any light here. My main concern is that lubeguard has these liquid wax esters.

What are your thoughts. Especially on the Mobil 1 ATF which I am converting in the hopes it is better. I wonder if the Lubeguard is worth a darn with the Syntetic ATF.

Re: ATF Fluids #729270
02/13/03 01:36 AM
02/13/03 01:36 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,234
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline OP
MolaKule  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,234
Iowegia - USA
Al,

The calcium and magnesium need not be as strong in ATF as in IC engines, because these dispersant/detergents don't have to work so hard removing (cleaning) the carbonaceous deposits and sludge created by blowby.

The borates (as in boron) are multifunctional additive's that work as Anti-Wear additives, as detergents, as anticorrosives, and as anti-oxidants. The fluid not only acts as the lubricant, but also acts as the power (torque) transfer agent. In doing the latter, it gets hot and tends to oxidize the oil. The main requirement for calcium, magnesium, and to a lesser extent, boron, is to keep the internals clean of any oxidized particles so they can operate the hydraulic actuators and valves.

Periodic fluid replacement with filter changes replenish the additive package and allow the mechanic to obeserve the amount of material wear in the transmission.

With synthetic ATF fluids, I see no reason to use Lubeguard unless you are having a shudder problem or you need to extend the operation of a highly oxidized fluid until you can have the problem corrected.

[ February 13, 2003, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

Re: ATF Fluids #729271
02/13/03 11:10 AM
02/13/03 11:10 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 204
Cordova, TN
nick778 Offline
nick778  Offline
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 204
Cordova, TN
So what is it in ATF that provides the 'super cleaning' when they add it as an engine flush? I'm not advocating anyone do this but given that some do (ie, the post under the atf section), what detergent or ester chemistry is producing these stories of great egine flush cleaning properties. I do not see detergents in any greater concentrations that regualr motor oil.

Re: ATF Fluids #729272
02/13/03 06:28 PM
02/13/03 06:28 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 18,221
Elizabethtown, Pa
Al Online content
Al  Online Content
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 18,221
Elizabethtown, Pa
quote:
Originally posted by nick778:
what detergent or ester chemistry is producing these stories of great egine flush cleaning properties. I do not see detergents in any greater concentrations that regualr motor oil.

I think you may have answered your own question. [Big Grin]

Re: ATF Fluids #729273
02/17/03 12:16 AM
02/17/03 12:16 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,234
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline OP
MolaKule  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,234
Iowegia - USA
Old wive's tales from long, long ago. Actually a few less detergents than engine oils.

Compare this against Delo and the Delvac's.

Re: ATF Fluids #729274
02/17/03 10:03 AM
02/17/03 10:03 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 204
Cordova, TN
nick778 Offline
nick778  Offline
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 204
Cordova, TN
So, is it being stated that ATF does not have any better inherent cleaning ability than a good synthetic or delo type motor oil? I was under the impression that one of ATFs primary objectives is to keep a transmission very, very clean as the clearances are tight and the trans action is all hydraulic. Also, I'm a little confused as you don't see folks i.e., cleaning parts with motor oil but you do hear that they do with ATF. I understand why one shold not do a flush with ATF (sulfur, etc) but does ATF have inherently better cleaning ability than good motor oils? I presume the answer is no but would appreciate a confirmation. Thanks...

Re: ATF Fluids #729275
02/17/03 10:12 AM
02/17/03 10:12 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 152
Ventura, CA
Malibu Offline
Malibu  Offline
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 152
Ventura, CA
nick778, to see for yourself, just visit a local junkyard and pull the transmission oil pan off a 30 year old car. The transmission parts are likely be amazingly clean (at least they have been on the 30 year old Asian cars I've inspected or owned) even if the transmission fluid is brown from oxidation.

Re: ATF Fluids #729276
02/17/03 01:24 PM
02/17/03 01:24 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 204
Cordova, TN
nick778 Offline
nick778  Offline
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 204
Cordova, TN
Some say yes, some say no it appears. Would still like to get some consensus based on fact and/or chemical make-up of ATF. If it indeed has better inherent cleaning abilities than good oil, it must be in the ester chemistry as it doesn't show up in the detergent make-up...

Re: ATF Fluids #729277
02/17/03 04:40 PM
02/17/03 04:40 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 5,785
Dixie
TooSlick Offline
TooSlick  Offline
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 5,785
Dixie
Nick778,

Transmission sumps don't see combustion by-products, including dilution by fuel - THAT'S why they are cleaner than engine oil pans. There is nothing chemically in ATF that would make it a better cleaner than engine oil. Most ATF's are 0w-20 or 5w-20 grades, so by thinning out the old oil it may drain more completely. This may be where this nonsense about using ATF as an engine flush got started.

Ted

Re: ATF Fluids #729278
02/18/03 12:22 AM
02/18/03 12:22 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,234
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline OP
MolaKule  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,234
Iowegia - USA
I have to agree with Ted.

It is not a matter of additive package, but of viscosity as to the source of this old wive's tale about ATF being a flush.


ATF is 0W20 to 5W20 and thins out the engine oil. Take a thick 10W40 of 'yore,' and add some ATF and the result is a thinner oil that might act as a mild wash.

The Auto tranny sees no combustion gasses, no silicons (unless the dipstick become unseated), so the tranny case is essentially sealed.

The main requirements of an ATF are thermal stability and friction modification (lubrication), with some anti-wear additive for the Sun, lock-up, and Planetary Gears, and of course, the needle/pin bearings. Add about 0.01% of anti-foamants (siloxanes) and some red dye for leak identification, and you have an ATF.

So, using an ATF in an engine is a waste of money and causes the engine's lubricating fluid film to reduce in thickness.

[ February 18, 2003, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: Patman ]

Re: ATF Fluids #729279
02/26/03 08:41 AM
02/26/03 08:41 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,234
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline OP
MolaKule  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,234
Iowegia - USA

Re: ATF Fluids #729280
02/21/05 02:10 AM
02/21/05 02:10 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,234
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline OP
MolaKule  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,234
Iowegia - USA
For automatic transmission fluids, the Level of Specification, whether it be a DexronIII(H), a Mercon variety, Toyota T-IV, Honda ATF-Z1, or whathaveyou, DOES NOT specifiy the base oils.

The fluid developer must come up witha fluid that meets the specification for oxidation resistance, friction modification retention, etc.

Ususally, an additive company like Afton (formerly Ethyl) or Lubrizol, or Infineum, or XYZ, comes up with an add pack for that specification. They then suggest a base oil mix for that formulation.

The formulation gets tested, and if it passes, everything is hunky dory. Usually, it doesn't pass the first time and has to be tweaked for various reasons, such as for example, friction modification retention.

After testing, the additive supplier is confident the additive package can meet the specification requirements for various base fluids.

As the specification heat is turned up, higher Group fluids must be used, such as Group III minimum, in order to pass certain tests.

Re: ATF Fluids #729281
02/28/05 02:43 AM
02/28/05 02:43 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,357
California, USA
Jimbo Offline
Jimbo  Offline
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,357
California, USA
Here is my ATF UOA. This must be one of those low-ZDDP formulations.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=002301

Re: ATF Fluids #729282
03/02/05 01:40 AM
03/02/05 01:40 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,927
northern Alabama
benjamming Offline
benjamming  Offline
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,927
northern Alabama
quote:
Originally posted by MolaKule:
There is one UOA of ATF:

I have posted 2 of my Honda Accord:
factory fill

2nd sample

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