Brief History of ATFs

[carlprop]

Also of note is the automatic transmission used in the Chevy Corvair that was mounted on the rear with the engine. The Corvair had 4 wheel independent suspension. The Pontiac Tempest had used a similar 4 wheel independent suspension design as well from 1961 to 1963. The transmission was also on the rear suspension event though the engine was front mounted.

What was unique about these transmissions was there was no park position. You had to use the foot brake. Also the shift lever was in the dash.

I had a 1962 Pontiac Tempest station wagon with the 4 cyl 195 ci engine. Yes, a 4 cylinder. Exactly half of a 389 Pontiac V8. The car was very underpowered for its size. Especially with the 2 speed automatic transmission that would shift into high gear at 15mph at light throttle. Sometimes I would have to leave it in low range to climb some hills. Mine came with the 1 barrel carburetor. You could actually get it with a 4 barrel. At the time being a teenager, I did see a Tempest with a 4 cyl. 4 barrel manifold in a junk yard, but passed on it as wasn't going to keep the car long. The parts system wasn't computerized like it is now and I had a very difficult time locating parts like shock absorbers. Also you could get a 215 ci aluminum V8 with steel cylinder sleeves that came with a 4 barrel carburetor.

 

[MolaKule]

A bit more data from one of the posts regarding ATF's as engine cleaners.


ATF's have little detergency.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000086


ATF's rely on special synthetic/organic dispersants to keep stuff floating around and to inhibit collection on surfaces to prevent varnish.

Most ATF's have the following components for solvency and additive dispersancy.

1. Napthenic Oils
2. Organic dispersants/VII's
3. low levels of organic or natural esters.
4. low viscosity

ATF's will thin engine oil and have little efficacy as engine cleaners.


Here is a QOTD thread on detergents/dispersants:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000021

 

[G-MAN]

Here are the "typical" specs and properties of Mopar 7176E (ATF+3):

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Gravity oAPI 30.3

Viscosity, SUS @ 210 oF 53.0

Viscosity, SUS @ 100 oF 169.0

Viscosity, Kin 40 oC cSt 35.16

Viscosity, Kin 100 oC cSt 7.55

Brookfield - 40 oC cP 20,000 max.

Brookfield - 28.9 oC cP 4500 max.

Viscosity Index 198

Flash Point , oC (oF) 355(180)

Pour Point, oC (oF) -40 (-40)

Color (Visual) Red

Foam Sequence 1 (D 892) 30/0

Foam Sequence 2 (D 892) 100/0

Foam Sequence 3 (D 892) 30/0

Foam Sequence 4(D 892) 100/0

Zinc ppm 710

Calcium ppm 2250

Sulphur ppm 1610

Phosphorus ppm 585

Barium ppm 1650

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[LVHospiceRN]

MolaKule: A little known fact is that original formulation of ATF occurred initially in Germany. The secrets of formulation was so closely guarded that the workers were actually, well, uh, ELVES...

They are the great grandfathers of the Elves that brew German Castrol.

NOW you know....the rest of the story...

darrell
sin city

 

[MolaKule]

When one is designing an ATF, one also has to take into consideration the "type" of friction modification wrt "Highly friction Modified." In terms of formulating, this means more than say simply adding 120 mL instead of 92 mL.

It means providing the right amount (which we call 'dosage' here on BITOG) of a "specific" type of friction modifier. So when designing ATF's, these considerations apply:

1. Selection of proper viscosity for cold weather, hot weather application/driveability
2. correct anti-oxidants for base fluid type,
3. correct base fluid type for thermal and oxidation stability
4. proper amount (volume or %weight/weight) and type of friction modification for clutch type.
5. correct type and molecular weight of viscosity index improver,
6. correct type and molecular weight of dispersant
7. a small amount of detergent,
8. proper amount and type of anti-wear additives,
9. proper amount and type of anti-foamants
10. proper amount and type of metal deactivators
11. proper amount and type of rust inhibitors.

 

[Jay]

Molakule, what's your take on Amsoil's one-size-fits-all (or nearly all) ATF? Here are some of the recommended applications for it:

* GM DEXRON II®, DEXRON III
* Ford MERCON®, MERCON V
* Chrysler ATF+ through ATF+4®
* Honda Z-1 (Not for use in CVT transmissions)
* Toyota Type T and T-IV
* Mitsubishi/Hyundai Diamond SP II & III
* Allison C-3,C-4
* Caterpillar TO-2
* Voith G-1363
* ZF TE-ML 14C
* GM Strasbourg & Opel
* Vickers I-286-S & M-2950-S

Given the precise and widely varying frictional coefficent requirements of automatic transmissions, how is it possible for Amsoil's ATF to work in all these applications?

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jay:
Given the precise and widely varying frictional coefficent requirements of automatic transmissions, how is it possible for Amsoil's ATF to work in all these applications?

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Luck.

 

[John K]

Friend of mine had a 59 Impala with 348 ci and Turboglide. It was a smooth shifting tranny.

I remember when my MIL was buying a Chevy midsize car about 1969? and I recommended she order it with the optional tranny instead of the Powerglide, but the salesman talked her into the PG, said it was faster! She was buying a 6 cyl! She drove very conservatively. I just shook my head later when she complained of the wheelspin on slippery surfaces! The PG had too much torque, and the optional tranny would have been much better for her....

 

[Pablo]

quote:

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Given the precise and widely varying frictional coefficent requirements of automatic transmissions, how is it possible for Amsoil's ATF to work in all these applications?

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That's just it (no not luck) the requirements are not that precise and they don't vary that widely. Using GOOD basestocks and additives it's not that hard to design a modern ATF without sperm whale oil which works great in those trannies listed.

 

[TooSlick]

Jay,

The frictional coefficients and clutch materials are very similar from transmission to transmission. The main technical difference is that some OEM's require better low temp pumpability and better high temp thermal stability than a generic Mercon/Dexron III fluid.

These more stringent, high/low temp requirements are easily met with a PAO/Ester basestock and optimized additive chemistry....

Ted

 

[Winston]

quote:

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In 1967 and 1972, GM issued the Dexron specification which contained 3,500 ppm of phosphorus, 3,200 ppm of zinc, 7,500 ppm of nitrogen , 3,200 ppm of sulfur, and 4,500 ppm of Calcium. This additive package was 10.5% of the total fluid volume. The 1972 formulation specified better oxidation and Friction Modification.

In 1967, Ford introduced the M2C33- F “Type – F’” fluid which contained 12,000 ppm of phosphorus, 4,200 ppm of zinc, 4,000 ppm of Nitrogen , and 800 ppm of Barium.
This additive package was 9% of the total fluid volume.

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How do you add Nitrogen to a liquid?

 

[Pablo]

Could also be in the form of organic amines such as alkanolamine or some ammonium salt....

Sodium nitrite? cool!

 

[MolaKule]

quote:

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How do you add Nitrogen to a liquid?

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As Pablo has stated, or you "bubble" nitrogen through the liquid.

The Nitrogen values come from the totality of the friction modifiers, viscosity modifiers, and anti-oxidants.

 

[Jan Richter]

In the 1960’s AT became available as an option for the British Mini, together with a 998 cc engine instead of the standard 848 cc. The engine, AT and final drive all shared the same sump, and used SAE 30 engine oil. The automatic changing could be over-ridden by selecting a gear from 1-2-3-4 on the quadrant. Some people selected 4th gear and used that all the time, including pulling away from a stop, in the belief that they were saving fuel. The design of the AT was soon changed.

Jan Richter

 

[Crashbox]

quote:

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Originally posted by Winston:

quote:

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In 1967 and 1972, GM issued the Dexron specification which contained 3,500 ppm of phosphorus, 3,200 ppm of zinc, 7,500 ppm of nitrogen , 3,200 ppm of sulfur, and 4,500 ppm of Calcium. This additive package was 10.5% of the total fluid volume. The 1972 formulation specified better oxidation and Friction Modification.

In 1967, Ford introduced the M2C33- F “Type – F’” fluid which contained 12,000 ppm of phosphorus, 4,200 ppm of zinc, 4,000 ppm of Nitrogen , and 800 ppm of Barium.
This additive package was 9% of the total fluid volume.

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How do you add Nitrogen to a liquid?

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Possibly sodium nitrite?

 

[MolaKule]

Both good questions.

1. Not diesel fuel, but as an engine flush since back then, the ATF's contained more dispersants and detergents than did motor oils. Too many metallic compounds can create large deposits in diesel engines.

2. As research into transmission fluids and gears progressed, it was found that certain compounds actually had a detrimental effect as torque converter and fluid temps increased.

Different clutch and band friction materials required changes in the fluid as well.

Actuation pressures of pistons and bands also required fluid changes.

Except for Honda AT designs, most fluids now require very low metallic content.

 

[Steve S]

In 1967 and 1972, GM issued the Dexron specification which contained 3,500 ppm of phosphorus, 3,200 ppm of zinc, 7,500 ppm of nitrogen , 3,200 ppm of sulfur, and 4,500 ppm of Calcium. This additive package was 10.5% of the total fluid volume. The 1972 formulation specified better oxidation and Friction Modification.

In 1967, Ford introduced the M2C33- F “Type – F’” fluid which contained 12,000 ppm of phosphorus, 4,200 ppm of zinc, 4,000 ppm of Nitrogen , and 800 ppm of Barium.
This additive package was 9% of the total fluid volume.

If these numbers are correct 1)would this be why add to diesel feul came to be? 2) what happened to these additive levels in the newer fluids?

 

[Steve S]

quote:

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Originally posted by MolaKule:
Both good questions.

1. Not diesel fuel, but as an engine flush since back then, the ATF's contained more dispersants and detergents than did motor oils. Too many metallic compounds can create large deposits in diesel engines.

2. As research into transmission fluids and gears progressed, it was found that certain compounds actually had a detrimental effect as torque converter and fluid temps increased.

Different clutch and band friction materials required changes in the fluid as well.

Actuation pressures of pistons and bands also required fluid changes.

Except for Honda AT designs, most fluids now require very low metallic content.

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Thanks Mola'

 

[Winston]

quote:

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As Pablo has stated, or you "bubble" nitrogen through the liquid.

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Yes, but this would only be temporary. The nitrogen would slowly come back out of the solution over time. So, you could never meet a "4000ppm Nitrogen" spec this way.

quote:

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The Nitrogen values come from the totality of the friction modifiers, viscosity modifiers, and anti-oxidants.

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Seems like it would be difficult to meet the Nitrogen spec. if it from the "totality" of various items. You could meet the spec by adding a lot of X and a little of Y. Or a little of X and a lot of Y. Seems like a very strange way to write a spec. Especially since the Nitrogen alone would do nothing to the performance of the liquid.

 

[MolaKule]

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Especially since the Nitrogen alone would do nothing to the performance of the liquid.

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Again:

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The Nitrogen values come from the totality of the friction modifiers, viscosity modifiers, and anti-oxidants.

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So they do have definite performance affects.