VW O2J 5 speed tranny at 45k

[Tek]

After reading the other UOA on this tranny's factory fill, I decided to replace mine with some Redline MT-90. Gears were getting a little hard to get into, now after putting a few miles on the Redline it shifts much easier. I can now downshift to 1st at 30mph (not that I ever do, hehe). The "lifetime" fluid doesn't look so impressive at 45k.

Text in case image disappears:

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ALUMINUM 6

CHROMIUM 2

IRON 323

COPPER 40

LEAD 2

TIN 0

MOLYBDENUM 11

NICKEL 2

MANGANESE 17

SILVER 0

TITANIUM 0

POTASSIUM 0

BORON 0

SILICON 6

SODIUM 5

CALCIUM 9

MAGNESIUM 3

PHOSPHORUS 552

ZINC 47

BARIUM 33



SUS Visc.@210 45.4

FLASHPOINT 400F

WATER 0%

INSOLUBLES 0.9

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[Pablo]

ewe

huge shearage

smart to change!

 

[The Critic]

We go through this silly discussion every time someone posts a VW Manual Transmission Analysis.

Not all VWs come filled with the same 75w90 manual transmission lube!

Some come with a GL-4 75w90, while others come with a lubricant having an automatic transmission fluid like viscosity. Obviously, this report shows that the original factory fill was the latter, not the former!

Use your common sense. Can a 75w90 possibly shear to < 7.5 from > 14.5 cst, when 75w90 lubricants are extremely shear stable? Very unlikely.

The decreased shifting performance may’ve been a result of the friction modifiers wearing out and may’ve been unrelated to the slight or no shearing of the fluid.

The correct replacement fluid for this transmission should’ve been Molakule’s MTFGlide, the Genuine VW fluid, or possibly Redline MTL, even though it’s thicker. Obviously, based upon your success w/ Redline MT-90 in this transmission, Redline MTL should work fine.

And yes, I would suggest draining the MT-90 out ASAP and replacing it with something much thinner, as the transmission was designed to tolerate such a heavy lubricant.

[ May 14, 2006, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: Bio-T ]

 

[Pablo]

Mike - maybe. I will agree that MT-90 may be a bit too thick for this application. I doubt it will damage it year 'round in Orlando.

If the factory filled it with an ATF type fluid, was this in error? Do you think a 14 cSt fluid would shear a few percentage pts. and then quit shearing? I don't think it works like that, especially with a dino fluid not subject to combustion. This fluid has 40K on it - did it start at 7.5 cSt? That, I agree, we don't know. The add pack looks like nothing special.

As you know, Amsoil recommends MTG? Is this too thick in your expert opinion?

What is in the owner's manual? That might be a good place to start.

 

[The Critic]

quote:

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V@100c of the factory fill (G52) in my 2004 Golf TDI 5-speed after 43,000 miles was 6.4.

The CAT lab ran the viscosity test twice because I listed the oil as being a 75w-90 - which G52 clearly is not.

I had the lab perform a VOA on the Motul Gear 300 I put in and its V@100c = 14.0.

My thinking was that either the OEM oil sheared way down OR the OEM fluid started out much lighter than the 75w-90 oils that many of us are commonly replacing G52 with.

So, I went to the dealer this morning, bought a liter of G52, then drove to my local CAT fluid analysis lab and watched as he tested its viscosity right in front of me.

The result: VOA viscosity of G52 = 6.3

Viscosity Comparison @ 100 C

10.6 = Redline MTL 70-80
13.8 = Amsoil MTG 75-90
15.2 = Motul Gear 300 75-90
15.6 = Redline MT-90 75-90
15.0 = Elf Tranself Synthese FE 75-90
16.7 = Motul MOTYLGEAR 75-90

6.3 = OEM G52 (part numbers G052726A2 / G05272601)

OEM G52 did not shear down at all in 43,000 miles of use:

V@100c: New G52 = 6.3, G52 after 43,000 miles = 6.4

Additionally, in these crazy unseasonably warm temps the Motul Gear 300 shifts fine - but early yesterday morning when temps were in the mid 40s - the first few shifts with Motul Gear 300 were noticably more effortful than the G52 ever was - even at below 0 temps.

Point being that even though Motul Gear 300 has an outstandingly low pour point (flows to -60)...

**the 75-90 viscosity of common gear / manual transmission oils is IMO not suitable for use in VW transmissions where G52 is specified.**

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http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=50;t=000051

There you have it, another 02J transmission showing a similar UOA result with the factory fill. It surely can’t be an error that two identical transmissions, from two unrelated cars, contain the same type of fluid?

The end-of-test viscosity from this sample is 5.9 cst, per my calculator. As the gentleman in the above thread went and purchased a sample of the oil as a result of his interest and had it tested, the viscosity reading was 6.3. In other words, there was very little shearing of this fluid during the duration of its use.

Also, your statements are flawed. First, the discussion of whether or not this sample was a 75w90 to begin with should cease. I know that the 75w90 VW/Audi factory fills with is a GL-4 rated, synthetic lubricant, and this sample surely does not show a GL-4 level of anti-wear additives. Just look at the recent VOA of GL-4 Redline MTL that was posted. The additive levels aren’t even close. Secondly, there aren’t any dino 75w90 lubes that I know of, at least. The synthetic 75w90, at least the one made by Molakule, does not contain any VII so there should be very little or no shearing at all with use.

 

[Pablo]

Mike - I'm not saying this oil started life as synthetic 75W-90. I least I don't think I said that.

So where is this VW requirement for 75W-90? Or does VW only say to use "GL-4 is Synthetic gear oil, VW part no. G 052 726 A2"

EDIT - I find glxpassat's comments quite interesting in that recently resuscitated thread. To the point of saying that MY logic is not flawed.....only that there is something wrong, somewhere.

[ May 14, 2006, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: Pablo ]

 

[The Critic]

quote:

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Mike - I'm not saying this oil started life as synthetic 75W-90. I least I don't think I said that.

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In your original post, you assumed that the fluid started its life as a dino 75w90, which it didn’t. My point is that the 75w90 lubes VW/Audi uses, in the limited applications that it does, is a synthetic and not a dino. The synthetic 75w90 will shear very little if any at all.

quote:

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So where is this VW requirement for 75W-90? Or does VW only say to use "GL-4 is Synthetic gear oil, VW part no. G 052 726 A2"

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First of all, G 052 726 A2 is not a synthetic 75w90 lube, it is neither synthetic nor is it a 75w90. VW/Audi uses a GL-4, 75w90 type lubricant in certain applications but certainly not this one!

quote:

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EDIT - I find glxpassat's comments quite interesting in that recently resuscitated thread. To the point of saying that MY logic is not flawed.....only that there is something wrong, somewhere.

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There is something wrong here, obviously. The part #s do not correspond to the “supposed” fluids. However, but based upon the data we have here, 2 UOAs and 1 VOA of the product, we can conclude that regardless of what VW may have said is the correct fluid, that 75w90 gear lube surely wasn’t the factory fill.

 

[Pablo]

Agreed - this tranny was not filled with synthetic 75W-90.

 

[Bobert]

Here is some info about the G52 if you want to read and get a headache. It's fairly long winded (10 pages). I believe we are looking at the dino G52 in this analysis, there is another G52 synthetic as well which the viscosity is unknown.

Now I'll insert my layman opinion. I think going to a thicker lube such as Amsoil MTG, SF MTL-R, or Redline MT-90 will be perfectly fine (most likely better) in the 02J. I know the 02A and 02J have interchangeable gear sets, and the 02A uses 75w-90 GL4 spec for sure per Bentley Manual, so I don't think your tranny is going to blow up using a 75w-90.

VW usually chooses high quality lubes for their cars, but this G52 really has me scratching my head. The wear looks TERRIBLE. The G52 doesn't even look like a good door hinge lube, let alone a good manual transmission gear lubricant. Maybe though this kind of wear is acceptable to VW, just as burning through a quart every 1000 miles is acceptable for VW with engine oil. Use whatever floats your boat though by all means, but I wouldn't touch this G52 with a 10 foot gear puller.

 

[Tek]

Supposedly there are two types of G52, and I think the one that came from my transmission is this one (as described in an email from VW):

"G52: Manual gearbox oil SAE 75W based on a conventional hydrocarbons. Oil for filled-for-life application in manual gearboxes and final drives with spur gears."

I've heard a great many folks stating they've had no issues with Redline MTL or MT90 in this transmission, and since it will stay warm for most of the year down here I chose the MT90.

Not sure the reasoning behind the use of this dino G52 that was in the box from the factory, but I'm glad I'm rid of it. When I get another UOA in 20k miles, I'm hoping to see much less wear than in this UOA.

 

[elwood]

Quote:

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Maybe though this kind of wear is acceptable to VW, just as burning through a quart every 1000 miles is acceptable for VW with engine oil.

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Eh? I have owned over 20 VW's in my life and serviced far more than that. I don't know of one VW that has ever burned anything close to a quart/1000 miles. Did you major in DRAMA in school?

You have to look at the trans code and compare it against the chart in the Bentley to determine which gear oil you require. There are G50's and there are G52's and now there are G55's. Here is an example of the G52:

VW Part: G052-726-A2 (mineral)
VW Part: G052-171-A2 (synthetic)

In other words, find out specifically which 75W-90 you are testing and talking about because broad generalizations create unnecessary drama.

 

[moribundman]

Elwood is right that there are different kinds of G 052. Quite frankly, I don't know which one supersedes which and which doesn't. It says in the manual what the correct fluid is. For example, my Audi specifies G 052 911A 75W-90 in the manual. The recommendation per service bulletin is now G 052 911 A2. RL MT-90 works great in my transmission.

 

[Bobert]

Quote:

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Quote:

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Maybe though this kind of wear is acceptable to VW, just as burning through a quart every 1000 miles is acceptable for VW with engine oil.

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Eh? I have owned over 20 VW's in my life and serviced far more than that. I don't know of one VW that has ever burned anything close to a quart/1000 miles. Did you major in DRAMA in school?

You have to look at the trans code and compare it against the chart in the Bentley to determine which gear oil you require. There are G50's and there are G52's and now there are G55's. Here is an example of the G52:

VW Part: G052-726-A2 (mineral)
VW Part: G052-171-A2 (synthetic)

In other words, find out specifically which 75W-90 you are testing and talking about because broad generalizations create unnecessary drama.

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Dealership policy for VW's is that 1 quart consumption every 1000 miles is acceptable. No dramatics necessary.

 

[TeeDub]

The new VW transmission fluid is more like a synthetic ATF, with a API/GL-4 type, additive chemistry. I think that VW got tired of the complains about poor shifting in cold weather and is using the much thinner fluid as a bandaid.

I'd probably run the Redline MTL (approx 10 Cst @ 100C) in this application. The Amsoil 5w-30, MTF does NOT have the correct additive chemistry for a GL-4 application, even if the viscosity is similar to the Redline MTL....

 

[Pablo]

What is the P (and other additive) level of MTF, anyway?

 

[Kaie]

I decided to dig up another dinosaur.

I have seen TONS of Audi/VW guys use GM/Pennz Synchromesh without any issues, and many cases of it 'bandaiding' forward and 2nd gear issues. Synchromesh is 100c is ~9.5 cSt.

Now with all the reports of OEM VAG transmission oil being thin; yet calling for 75w90. Is it possible that the OEM is a thin 75w90? Therefor synchromesh fits and works very nice?

 

[MolaKule]

Unfortunately, many people still think that a differential lube is the same as a manual transmission fluid and suitable for manual transmissions, and it is not.


Most 75W90 MT lubes have a nominal viscosity of 14.5 cSt. Most 75W90 differential lubes are 16.5 cSt or higher.

I question whether Pennzoil Synchromesh MT fluid could offer the same film strength or protection as a higher viscosity fluid.

They probably use the PZ Synchromesh since the fluid is thinner and has better cold weather shifting.

So are you saying you don't believe The Critic's comments?

 

[Kaie]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Unfortunately, many people still think that a differential lube is the same as a manual transmission fluid and suitable for manual transmissions, and it is not.


Most 75W90 MT lubes have a nominal viscosity of 14.5 cSt. Most 75W90 differential lubes are 16.5 cSt or higher.

I question whether Pennzoil Synchromesh MT fluid could offer the same film strength or protection as a higher viscosity fluid.

They probably use the PZ Synchromesh since the fluid is thinner and has better cold weather shifting.

So are you saying you don't believe The Critic's comments?


No not at all. Infact his comments have prompted my thinking open a little more...

My train of thought about Synchromesh prior to his statements was 'WHY ARE YOU GUYS USING THIS? ITS NOT A 75W90'

 

[scurvy]

Originally Posted By: Kaie
I have seen TONS of Audi/VW guys use GM/Pennz Synchromesh without any issues, and many cases of it 'bandaiding' forward and 2nd gear issues. Synchromesh is 100c is ~9.5 cSt.

Now with all the reports of OEM VAG transmission oil being thin; yet calling for 75w90. Is it possible that the OEM is a thin 75w90? Therefor synchromesh fits and works very nice?


Nowhere in the Bentley manual does it call for 75w90 except as the old & outdated G50 & G51 - and both of those are synthetic. It purposefully leaves out any notes regarding viscosity of the G52 and up fluids.

Never put Pennzoil Synchromesh in mine but I've seen the praise for it... I share Mola Kule's reservations about it being suitable for the differential (and "Bob" knows 02J diffs need all the help they can get!). I have tried Red Line MTL, MT90 and a 50/50 mix in both cars and didn't particularly care for them.

I now have OEM G070 in the 2006 Golf and G060 in the 2000 NB. Both TDIs have better shift quality than with any of Red Line's gear oils which were majorly notchy in the winter. I've also heard from some transmission repair vendors on TDIClub that Red Line's gear oils are great for their business as those transmissions tend to wear out their synchros faster (too many friction modifiers? not the right type? i dunno.) but I really dig the new synthetic fluids from VW.

However one thing has made the most noticeable difference in shift quality than changing transmission fluid: realigning the shifter linkage. Very quick & easy; makes a world of difference.

 

[Kaie]

Originally Posted By: scurvy
Originally Posted By: Kaie
I have seen TONS of Audi/VW guys use GM/Pennz Synchromesh without any issues, and many cases of it 'bandaiding' forward and 2nd gear issues. Synchromesh is 100c is ~9.5 cSt.

Now with all the reports of OEM VAG transmission oil being thin; yet calling for 75w90. Is it possible that the OEM is a thin 75w90? Therefor synchromesh fits and works very nice?


Nowhere in the Bentley manual does it call for 75w90 except as the old & outdated G50 & G51 - and both of those are synthetic. It purposefully leaves out any notes regarding viscosity of the G52 and up fluids.

Never put Pennzoil Synchromesh in mine but I've seen the praise for it... I share Mola Kule's reservations about it being suitable for the differential (and "Bob" knows 02J diffs need all the help they can get!). I have tried Red Line MTL, MT90 and a 50/50 mix in both cars and didn't particularly care for them.

I now have OEM G070 in the 2006 Golf and G060 in the 2000 NB. Both TDIs have better shift quality than with any of Red Line's gear oils which were majorly notchy in the winter. I've also heard from some transmission repair vendors on TDIClub that Red Line's gear oils are great for their business as those transmissions tend to wear out their synchros faster (too many friction modifiers? not the right type? i dunno.) but I really dig the new synthetic fluids from VW.

However one thing has made the most noticeable difference in shift quality than changing transmission fluid: realigning the shifter linkage. Very quick & easy; makes a world of difference.


In my case i have the 020 transmission. Do you suppose VW took the car and love when making the newer oils to keep them 020 friendly?