Coolant smells like strong ammonia?

[crashz]

While changing the oil last night, I went around a checked all the fluids and greased up all the joints. I pulled the overflow tank cap and noticed that the color of the 1 yr old collant is a little murky and not quite as vibrant green as is was when I put it in. Not really a big deal, but I noticed a very strong smell of ammonia. Just like you took the cap off of a bottle of it. I had to take a couple sniffs because I just couldn't beleive it.

Last summer I used a flushing fluid (the valvoline stuff) and flushed and filled the system with 50/50 distilled water and Maxlife antifreeze. The truck is a 2001 F150, 4.2L V6 and it had green coolant from the factory. Last year was the first coolant service it has seen. The coolant level has been rock steady from day one through today. There is no oil in the coolant that I can see.

What could make coolant smell like that? Should I be worried? Its very possible that there could be a little flushing fluid still in the system from last year, could that be the cause?

 

[Ray H]

Possibly - I really don't know either, but your reasoning sounds logical - and it's my primary reason for not advising routine chemical flushes in the absense of overt scale or corrosion evidence. Coolant Chemist may weigh in on this question with some authoritative info. If not, I'd be considering a thorough prophylactic flush* with distilled water and final refill with fresh 50/50 antifreeze/coolant-distilled water to be on the safe side if it were my vehicle.

*multiple flushes until the effluent drains water-white clear.

 

[crashz]

RayH - that advise sounds good and was echoed by my resident "expert on everthing automotive" here at work. I'll start at lunchtime.

 

[y_p_w]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ray H:
Possibly - I really don't know either, but your reasoning sounds logical - and it's my primary reason for not advising routine chemical flushes in the absense of overt scale or corrosion evidence. Coolant Chemist may weigh in on this question with some authoritative info. If not, I'd be considering a thorough prophylactic flush* with distilled water and final refill with fresh 50/50 antifreeze/coolant-distilled water to be on the safe side if it were my vehicle.

*multiple flushes until the effluent drains water-white clear.

---

OAT corrosion inhibitors are supposed to work by forming a protective layer. I'd think that a strong chemical flush (even citric acid) might compromise the layer and it'll take X amount of time for the layer to regrow.

I'm not sure about distilled water per se. It's slightly acidic (carbonic acid) in the absence of anything alkaline. Maybe a little bit of coolant to neutralize the acid? If I were going to do a flush, I'd use the extremely soft (and slightly alkaline) tap water we have locally, and then distilled water for the final mix. I typically just drain and fill anyways.

 

[CoolantChemist]

Ammonia (NH3) just isn't going to happen in your coolant. I think your sniffer may be off a bit?

 

[Ray H]

Carbonic acid can be generated by bubbling carbon dioxide gas through water. (That process is what gives soda-pop its fizz.) What I'd like to know is what would be the source of carbon dioxide in a sealed container from the bottler? By the way, y_p_w, not all locales are as blessed as California's north bay area with its "extremely soft (and mildly alkaline) tap water". (Never occured to me that common, tap water could be glowingly described in "designer" terminology!

) In any event I definitely prefer mineral-free water is my coolant diluent, as apparently do the OEMs according to the later owner's manuals I've reviewed. The alkalinity buffers in antifreeze/coolant concentrate will handily deal with the alleged weak acidity of bottled distilled water.

 

[Big Jim]

I suspect that some of the flush compound remains. This is a very common condition. This is one of the reasons that I try to avoid chemical flushes and instead do a water only flush but I change the coolant more often.

 

[y_p_w]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ray H:
Carbonic acid can be generated by bubbling carbon dioxide gas through water. (That process is what gives soda-pop its fizz.) What I'd like to know is what would be the source of carbon dioxide in a sealed container from the bottler? By the way, y_p_w, not all locales are as blessed as California's north bay area with its "extremely soft (and mildly alkaline) tap water". (Never occured to me that common, tap water could be glowingly described in "designer" terminology!

) In any event I definitely prefer mineral-free water is my coolant diluent, as apparently do the OEMs according to the later owner's manuals I've reviewed. The alkalinity buffers in antifreeze/coolant concentrate will handily deal with the alleged weak acidity of bottled distilled water.

---

Well - you'd get CO2 simply from the atmosphere. I've run acquarium test kits on distilled water, and it was definitely acidic, with a pH lower (i.e. acidic) than the kit could test for. I also have a hardness test kit, and it was about 30-40 mg/L with water from East Bay Municipal Utility District water. I've lived in Santa Clara, California, with a city-owned utility supplying mostly local well water. That stuff was nasty. It leaves hard deposits everywhere. I tried the hardness test, and stopped when I realized I might be emptying my whole bottle of indicator drops - so it was at least 300 mg/L.

The EBMUD water is mostly snowmelt from the Mokelumne River Watershed in the Sierra Nevadas, along with several local watersheds/reservoirs. I've heard rumblings that some groups would like to change the source for environmental concerns, mainly because this quality of water is unnecessary for watering lawns or flushing toilets. There's actually a pilot program to bottle the stuff and distribute it at promotional events or for purchase at a local reservoir (in recreational use).

Here's the latest annual report:

http://www.ebmud.com/water_&_environment/water_quality/annual_report/default.htm
http://www.ebmud.com/water_&_environment/water_quality/bottled_water/default.htm

And sure - there's not a lot of "reserve acidity" in mild carbonic acid. If I mixed just a little tap water in, the result would be alkaline.

[ June 03, 2005, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: y_p_w ]

 

[CoolantChemist]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Big Jim:
I suspect that some of the flush compound remains. This is a very common condition. This is one of the reasons that I try to avoid chemical flushes and instead do a water only flush but I change the coolant more often.

---

Yeah, I just checked out our chemical flush solution and I can see how it could be mistaken for an "ammonia" smell. It's actually a good product to use, you just need to flush thoroughly because the flush solution will have a pH of about 2.5 and that's not very good for your system. Further, the acid that's left over will eat up some of your alkalinity in your fresh coolant.

 

[y_p_w]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Meistersinger:
Just out of curiosity, but is a chemical flush even needed on most newer model cars these days? I recently had my older brother change my fluid for me, and he commented how most newer vehicles have Aluminum radiators now and it just isn't necessary to do a chemical flush or even use distilled water if you are changing the fluid yearly. Any thoughts? Personally, I can see the need for distilled water to avoid scale buildup, but how about the flush?

---

I wouldn't worry about a little bit with high quality tap water. I think the key is that dissolved minerals interfere with the additives - especially phosphates. If it's super hard well water, I wouldn't want to use it even as a radiator flush, because some of it will remain in the cooling system.

Here's the latest water quality report from the city of Santa Clara. They have several sources, including 27 deep wells within the city, the Santa Clara Valley Water District, and Hetch Hetchy Resevoir (in Yosemite Park BTW). HH is owned by San Francisco. Of their sources, the local wells average 254 PPM CaCO3, while HH averages 66 PPM. The report also includes magnesium and calcium levels.

http://www.ci.santa-clara.ca.us/pdf/collateral/WaterUtility-ConsumerConfidenceReport2005.pdf

I'd like to compare this to the EBMUD water reports, but they have dissolved solids in mg/L instead of PPM.

I'm also curious about the effect of chloramine used by EBMUD on cooling systems. We've got a small drinking water distillation unit in the kitchen at work. I've done the periodic drain of the boiler tank, and it comes out looking really yellow which I'm assuming is the more concentrated chloramine and/or minerals.

 

[Ray H]

If big brother was implying that aluminum won't oxidize, he's very mistaken. Aluminum oxide occurs naturally and is the basis for blue sapphire and red ruby gem stones - they differ by color because of the specific contaminants in the aluminum oxide crystaline matrix. Pure, uncontaminated white sapphire is water-white clear. All of these gems measure "9" on the Mohs hardness scale - the only harder naturally occuring minerals are diamonds at "10". Non-gem quality aluminum oxide was used extensively as the industrial abrasive, "corundum". If you've ever "lapped" a valve to its seat, that's what you were likely using - and it didn't take long, did it? Finely polished, perforated rubies have another use - bearings in precision mechanical and electrical measurement instruments. Because of their hardness, they're incredibly long lived. From this, it can't be a blind leap of deduction to realize you wouldn't want randomly shaped, sharp-edged crystals of aluminum oxide bobbing around near your water pump seals. But getting back to the gist of your question, as I stated in an earlier post in this thread, absent overt evidence of scale or corrosion, chemical flushes are an unnecessary investment in time and money, but, if done, should always be followed with repeated and thorough flushes, perferably with distilled or de-ionized water to avoid hard-water mineral introduction. Hard-water minerals - even present in "soft" tapwater, will promote oxidative corrosion to a much greater extent than the extremely weak carbonic acid level in distilled water.

 

[y_p_w]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ray H:
If big brother was implying that aluminum won't oxidize, he's very mistaken. Aluminum oxide occurs naturally and is the basis for blue sapphire and red ruby gem stones - they differ by color because of the specific contaminants in the aluminum oxide crystaline matrix. Pure, uncontaminated white sapphire is water-white clear. All of these gems measure "9" on the Mohs hardness scale - the only harder naturally occuring minerals are diamonds at "10". Non-gem quality aluminum oxide was used extensively as the industrial abrasive, "corundum". If you've ever "lapped" a valve to its seat, that's what you were likely using - and it didn't take long, did it?

---

Sure - but corundum is produced under high heat and pressure conditions. Aluminum metal oxidizes rapidly in the presence of oxygen and forms a protective layer sealing out further corrosion. It's pretty stable provided the temperature doesn't get too high and it's not soaked in a liquid bath or exposed to a lot of salt. The San Francisco BART system has been using aluminum shelled cars for over 30 years. When it came time to rebuild the original cars, the shells were typically in very good condition and didn't need any work.

quote:

---

Finely polished, perforated rubies have another use - bearings in precision mechanical and electrical measurement instruments. Because of their hardness, they're incredibly long lived.

---

They're probably overused. Some mechanical watches have gone so far as to use "jewelled" movements for the rotor, when ball bearings would be better-suited, cheaper, and longer lasting.

quote:

---

From this, it can't be a blind leap of deduction to realize you wouldn't want randomly shaped, sharp-edged crystals of aluminum oxide bobbing around near your water pump seals. But getting back to the gist of your question, as I stated in an earlier post in this thread, absent overt evidence of scale or corrosion, chemical flushes are an unnecessary investment in time and money, but, if done, should always be followed with repeated and thorough flushes, perferably with distilled or de-ionized water to avoid hard-water mineral introduction. Hard-water minerals - even present in "soft" tapwater, will promote oxidative corrosion to a much greater extent than the extremely weak carbonic acid level in distilled water.

---

But there is a certain tolerance for a light level of mineral deposits. I'd think a short-term "flush" with good tap water isn't likely to do much, although long-term it might not be ideal.

But heck - I don't believe in flushes short of a really bad problem. I'm also starting to believe I should use about a 40% (maybe slightly higher) concentration given my local ambient conditions. The freeze point should still be adequate for trips to Tahoe in the winter. The additive level should be fine. I've heard that a higher water concentration should transfer heat better and the lower viscosity will flow slightly better. While my owner's manual says 50/50 is ideal, I've seen TSBs mentioning an acceptable range based on ambient temps.

 

[crashz]

Well, the flushing continues. I've been draining out 2 gallons from the radiator every day now, and have a very slightly green coolant. A few more days and it should be clean water only.

After a couple drain and fills with the distilled water, the scent has disappeared. Maybe I could have been mistaken, but I guess better off safe than sorry.

 

[doitmyself]

Two questions for Ray

Those 12 oz. bottles of radiater cleaner that cost about $3 to $4 dollars and seem to contain a citric product or tri sodium phosphate. Are you saying those are not good to use? I have never seen them actually remove any white scale build up. I thought they were more of a mild surfactant/detergent to help loosen soft grime, etc..

I'm not talking about the harsh acid flushes.

Second, concerning crashz's method above. Don't you think running nearly pure water in the system for a few days would result in "flash" rust on any iron parts that would contaminate the system.

When I repeatedly exchange water/flush my systems with DI water, I almost think that after a point, the water starts getting discolored again (from flash rust).

Thanks

 

[Ray H]

The citric acid flushes (citric acid is, itself, an organic acid, so probably has some corrosion inhibitor action - at least temporarily) aren't likely to be strong enough to cause a lot of harm, nor are they strong enough to dislodge well entrenched corrosion. If you have scale or corrosion, you'd need something stronger - and it's available, but has to be used carefully. Anything strong enough to clear established corrosion isn't something that should be left in the system any longer than necessary. I agree with your point that iron could be susceptible to flash rust. I don't see tap water being appreciably better in that regard, though. My advice, and I apologize for not being clearer in my advice to crashz, was to do repeated flushes over the course of whatever time it took to clear the effluent, and then immediately install and dilute fresh antifreeze concentrate - idling until the thermostat opened each time, but not actually driving between refills with distilled water and drains. When the upper radiator hose gets HOT, the thermostat is open and it's time to drain. Each time leave the radiator cap in place but loosened to avoid pressurization. Doing a full flush may be a miserable, boring procedure (especially if the weather's turned hot), but it can be completed in one afternoon. Oh, make sure the heater control valve is set to the full "HOT" position.

 

[Ray H]

quote:

---

Originally posted by y_p_w:
...corundum is produced under high heat and pressure conditions.

---

Natural corundom (including its gemstone variants) were produced under conditions of high heat and probably high pressure in igneous rock during the earth's development - no argument there. Synthetic corundum (and its gemstone variants) are most commony produced by the flame-fusion technique in which alumina powder is sprinkled onto a platform heated to 2,000 degrees F. Fused corundum boules form which can be cut and polished, or crushed for use as abrasive, after they cool. No artificially induced pressure gradient is involved. The finished product is synthetic, NOT artificial - it has the same hardness and visual properties of its natural counterpart. Microscopically, there are optical differences - the lack of inclusions, and how the characteristic striae are formed, that allow identification as having been synthetically derived. Synthetic diamonds, (NOT artificial "look-alikes" such as YAGs and cubic zirconia), CAN be produced but, like their naturally occuring counterparts, do require conditions of intense heat and pressure. As expensive as gem-quality diamonds are, and I'm including various middlemen in the diamond trade, and the overhead of the sorting and grading procedures, carat-for-carat they're still cheaper than synthesizing the stones. The obscene fortunes of the DeBeers family is not at risk unless the miners rebel. (And even if they do, I wouldn't care to bet more than chump-change on the outcome. Wasn't it interesting in the mid-eighties that, while the entrenched South African government, South African gold in general, and Krugerands in particular, were the object of international derision, South African diamond mining interests and trade not only continued unabated, but increased almost exponentially through nearly a decade of political turmoil? What does that tell about who the real source of power currently is over there?)

 

[y_p_w]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ray H:

quote:

---

Originally posted by y_p_w:
...corundum is produced under high heat and pressure conditions.

---

Natural corundom (including its gemstone variants) were produced under conditions of high heat and probably high pressure in igneous rock during the earth's development - no argument there. Synthetic corundum (and its gemstone variants) are most commony produced by the flame-fusion technique in which alumina powder is sprinkled onto a platform heated to 2,000 degrees F. Fused corundum boules form which can be cut and polished, or crushed for use as abrasive, after they cool. No artificially induced pressure gradient is involved. The finished product is synthetic, NOT artificial - it has the same hardness and visual properties of its natural counterpart. Microscopically, there are optical differences - the lack of inclusions, and how the characteristic striae are formed, that allow identification as having been synthetically derived. Synthetic diamonds, (NOT artificial "look-alikes" such as YAGs and cubic zirconia), CAN be produced but, like their naturally occuring counterparts, do require conditions of intense heat and pressure. As expensive as gem-quality diamonds are, and I'm including various middlemen in the diamond trade, and the overhead of the sorting and grading procedures, carat-for-carat they're still cheaper than synthesizing the stones. The obscene fortunes of the DeBeers family is not at risk unless the miners rebel. (And even if they do, I wouldn't care to bet more than chump-change on the outcome. Wasn't it interesting in the mid-eighties that, while the entrenched South African government, South African gold in general, and Krugerands in particular, were the object of international derision, South African diamond mining interests and trade not only continued unabated, but increased almost exponentially through nearly a decade of political turmoil? What does that tell about who the real source of power currently is over there?)

---

I know the market for artifically produced rubies and sapphires isn't riding high since they're so easy to make. The synthetic rubies in my 17 jewel watch movement probably cost pennies each. There's probably no reason why they're colored red other than marketing purposes. Most watch movements aren't visible, although one of my watches has a display back.

Synthetic diamonds of course are too expensive for gemstone use. I was under the impression that they're useful for certain industrial applications because they're practically "perfect".

Also - I thought that Botswana took over as the #1 producer of gem-quality diamonds years ago, although their mines were under DeBeers control. South Africa's biggest revenue source was always from gold mining anyways.

 

[Stinky Peterson]

The cleaner you used most likely contained ammonium citrate. If it isn't rinsed throughly (at least 4 good flushes with water) when the coolant is added the pH goes up (especially with conventional coolants) and ammonia evolves. We see this all the time and the only cure it to drain and flush with water. If you don't believe me take some of that same cleaner and add a little sodium hydroxide (lye). The ammonia will knock you over. We actually recommend testing the rinse water by adding some NaOH and smelling to see if ammonia is present. There has been more than once when we've had to dump 100 gallons of new coolant because someone followed the instructions on the bottle and rinsed until clear. That ain't good enough!

There are 2 other less common causes of ammonia, one involves a reaction of nitrites and aluminum where high velocity flow occurs. The other happens on big generators installations with a floating grounds. Negative stray current plays a role but I can't remember the reaction.

By the way ammonia causes big problems with copper parts by continuously "cleaning" them.

 

[Meistersinger]

Just out of curiosity, but is a chemical flush even needed on most newer model cars these days? I recently had my older brother change my fluid for me, and he commented how most newer vehicles have Aluminum radiators now and it just isn't necessary to do a chemical flush or even use distilled water if you are changing the fluid yearly. Any thoughts? Personally, I can see the need for distilled water to avoid scale buildup, but how about the flush?

 

[y_p_w]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stinky Peterson:
By the way ammonia causes big problems with copper parts by continuously "cleaning" them.

---

What about chloramine treated water? Or is the amount used too little to make a difference?