AMSOIL HDD 5W-30 '96 TDI

[Andy H]

'96 Passat TDI (edit) 113,000miles
5W-30 HDD Installed 24 Dec 02, still in service
OEM oil filter
AMSOIL foam air filter, not serviced during period
No bypass filter
Recommended drain interval: 7500 miles

code:

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Jun 03 Nov 03

Miles on oil: 6660 14900

Iron 46 41

Chrome 22 15

Lead 7 4

Copper 5 5

Tin 1 0

Aluminum 12 8

Nickel 0 0

Silver 0 0

Silicon 6 4

Boron 1 0

Sodium 3 6

Magnesium 36 21

Calcium 4178 4055

Barium 0 0

Phosphorus 1255 1176

Zinc 1446 1339

Moly 2 0

Titanium 0 0

Vanadium 0 0

Potassium 0 0



Fuel 0 0

Vis@100C cSt 12.84 13.22

Water 0 0

Soot (%wt) .5 1.5

Glycol 0 0

TBN 8.22 8.64

Oxidation 14.0 15.0

Nitration 11.0 12.0



Note for November: Viscosity out of grade; resample at next interval.

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[ November 14, 2003, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: Andy H ]

 

[Patman]

Are you sure you've got the numbers in the right columns? The wear numbers have all come down and TBN is up, how is this possible unless you've added a LOT of makeup oil?? It just does not make any sense.

 

[Terry]

Andy, free info , take it for what it cost you.

Compare this result with Neil Womacks 2003 TDI using Schaeffers 15w-40 using 10,000 mile intervals.

Granted the time interval and age /mileage of engines is not comparable but the wear values are able to be correlated.

Chromium is way to high and is wearing the rings,cylinder walls at a rate you DO NOT want.

This is soot induced and dispersant is loaded with soot ( fallout) at a level that is causing increased wear.

The vis has not shown 30w in either of these tests.

The IR values are way too conservative IMHO.

To correct this situation change the oil filter and add at least 2 ounces per qt of LC to the crankcase or 10% of LC by volune, then top up a bit with fresh HDD, this will begin eating soot and containing it in filter.

Use Fuel Power( start with 2 ounces per 5 gallons first tank, then 1 ounce to 5 gallons) to negate the soot production on injector/cc side. Clean the EGR system out manually.

After that the oil will back in grade and the wear cycle stopped.

Resample at 6 months or 5000 to confirm the regime. Consider our service to monitor OAI's results.

 

[Terry]

Pat, thats not abnormal as the variables for reserve alkalinity vary all the time. Variations in soot, type driving,blowby,top up, timing ,condensation, type fuels used, CV/EGR system and gas flow in it, all affect that level.

It is not always linear like most automotive oil analysis.

 

[buster]

This oil appears to have a lot of life left. This oil also really does a nice job at extended drain intervals. My question is why do labs flag viscosity when it really is only up by a small percentage? I was told one grade up or down is permissable as long as wear values are ok. Report looks good to me.

 

[brian]

My guess is that the person purchased the car used or used conventional oil non-diesel rated for a while. We see these kind of results frequently in the older A3/B4 VW TDI's where 2nd owners start using synthetic and taking oil analysis. Higher oil consumption and ring sticking are common because first owners did not use diesel rated oil, synthetic oil, and didnt' change it frequently enough.

-brian

 

[Andy H]

Hey Terry, I appreciate your viewpoint and your comments. Thank you! Could you expand the LC acronym?

I don't feel that comparing my numbers to Neil's is a valid test - it's 'apples and oranges' at best - Neil's car didn't start life with a CD petroleum, he's got considerably fewer miles, and has a different EGR, different turbo, and different software. I certainly envy the wear metal quantities for the late model TDIs I've seen, tho - regardless of the oil used.

I really think that Brian's hit it on this one. I'm the second owner on the car, my earlier analysis is on the board for the Rotella T 'synth' and the AME. This car spent the first 65K or so on petroleum and there are consistant signs of gooey rings. I'm still working on cleaning it up without resorting to opening the engine. I'm going to soak the cylinders in PowerFoam before the next change...I'll see how the next analysis looks.

Patman, Rog, man - numbers are in the correct columns. Notice the drop in the EP additives? And yes - there's been about three quarts of makeup oil over this period. (Car's got a poor oil/vapor separator on the valve cover. Guaranteed - my intercooler will never rust...)

Buster, the numbers I have for a 30 oil are between 9.3 and <12.5 cSt. This oil starts life at 11.7 cSt @100c - in the upper range of a 30 oil.

 

[Pablo]

Terry's recommendation sounds OK, but if you are interested in cleaning your ring packs I would drain the oil (with maybe a flush) then run a short Delo rinse, then do a hi mile AutoRX (repeat) followed by Amsoil 15W-40 and the LC (Lube Control).

I think you will be amazed with the restored power and engine cleanliness from the ring seal alone.

 

[TooSlick]

This engine has severe piston ring deposits from a previous history of using a non diesel rated,petroleum oil. I have seen this on a # of occasions with older TDI's. Switching to Amsoil or Delvac 1 after this problem has already occurred will not correct the condition ....

This TDI ring sticking issue is documented in SAE literature and is why VW issued 2 seperate TSB's in 1999 recommending the use of synthetic oil in this engine. You can try to chemically clean the engine as Terry has suggested, or tear it down and chemically clean the pistons and rings.

The SAE paper is called something Like" "oil formulations for severe service passenger car diesel engine applications" It's authored by Infinium Corp out of England ....

Ted

 

[TooSlick]

Andy,

The solution I have come up with for this condition is to pour 3-4 ounces of pure biodiesel, ie B100, in each cylinder and let it soak overnight. Then crank the engine manually with the glow plugs removed to expell the excess from the cylinders. The key is to get all the fuel out of there before starting the engine back up.

Biodiesel is basically an ester and has excellent solvency properties. The Amsoil PF is NOT recommended for use in diesel engines.

Ted

 

[Pablo]

Wow - TOO Slick. GREAT Post!

1) I read the single line "Amsoil Power Foam is not recommended for use in diesel engines" in the lit. before, but why not? I tend to push the limit sometimes when it comes to nasty crud situations.

2) I have read that biodiesel is an excellent solvent. Will it help, just soaking statically?

3) After your treatment, wouldn't an AutoRx treatment still be advised?

 

[buster]

The level of knowledge that some of you guys have on these subjects is f'in awesome.

 

[Andy H]

Hey Ted,

Thanks for the biodiesel thought - I feel pretty silly for not thinking of that myself since I've made the stuff before... Awesome degreaser as well. I've read on the Journey to Forever website that mechanics in the Far East use BD as an engine flush - drain the oil, fill with BD, idle, drain, refill with oil.

I know that PowerFoam is not recommended for Diesel use - primarily because we can't shut the engine down as long as there's PF in the engine - and would detonate as well. I went to a class in Arlington,TX with the two main AMSOIL tech guys in Oct and had a side conversation with Bryan Selbrede. The PF will soak down and do it's decarboning if I use it the same way you recommended using BD. I'd suggested pulling the injectors, soaking the cylinders, expelling the liquid, then runing it...then changing the oil. I absolutely will not spray it into a running engine the way we use it for gas engines.

But since BD works - and detonates 'normally' I think I'll try that first.

 

[toyvwbenz]

quote:

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This car spent the first 65K or so on petroleum and there are consistant signs of gooey rings.

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Do you have records of what oil was used and what the change intervals were?

 

[Andy H]

toyvwbenz,

I pulled the VW records and interviewed the previous owner for maintenance history when I bought the car. The first owner leased the car and had dealer maintenance in Wisconsin the entire time. He bought it off the lease and continued with dealer maintenance after moving to Iowa. The dealer oil was petroleum until the mandated change to synthetic in '99...and dealerships still put petroleum in sometimes even with the Castrol on the shelf...

 

[TooSlick]

Andy,

Powerfoam is a very effective solvent, but you want to make sure you let it evaporate out of there or drain down into the crankcase before starting the engine. I have had excellent results with PF back when engines used to have carbs. I'd run 3/4 of a can through at a fast idle, and then spray it in fast enough to stall the engine. Then fill up the entire carb bowl with the foam and let the engine soak for 15 minutes. After this you put the air cleaner back on and keep accelerating up and down until you can see out the rear window ...

Needless to say, the best time for a PF treatment is just before dusk

I'd try the biodiesel first, since it's more benign - if you still need to use the PF after that, I think it will be effective on the deposits, just be very careful to get all the stuff out of the cylinders. The TDI pistons have a very pronounced depression on top, so you will have PF pooling up in those areas. I'd spray some in an aluminum pie tin and see how long it takes to evaporate at room temp. I'd also do an oil change soon afterwards, since you'll dilute the crankcase oil.

If you have any other questions, feel free to call ....

Ted

 

[toyvwbenz]

Andy,
Are you saying the dealer used a gasoline engine petroleum based oil until 99, and maybe longer? Also, you don't give any info as to the length of the oil change interval.

The "synthetic oil only" pushers out there like to make an example of engines like yours saying, "this is what you get when you don't use syn." In my opinion, this is what you get when don't use a diesel rated oil in a diesel.

Have you checked the compression?

 

[TooSlick]

Prior to issuing the tech service bulletins in 1999, most of the VW/Audi dealerships were using the Castrol RX, 15w-40 in this application, which was and is a HD diesel engine oil. VW has a long standing association with Castrol in Europe and has used their products as factory fill lubes in a number of different engines.

These TSB's were not issued until TDI's had been in service in the US for about three years. The clear implication is that VW had run into long term issues with using any sort of petroleum oils in the TDI. In order to protect themselves over the course of the 100k/10 year powertrain warranty, someone at a high level decided it would be less expensive to use synthetic oil for all the free maintenance service on these vehicles ....

The new VW 505.01 oil specification is also restricted to synthetic lubes, simply as a result of the viscometrics required for these fluids.

 

[Andy H]

'Benz, Sorry - didn't mean to suggest that it was gas oil, just that it took a while for service folks to remember that the TDI's new blood was synthetic instead of the petroleum they're used to pulling off the shelf. I don't doubt that the oil used was diesel oil.
I haven't yet found the service papers I have in this room somewhere...I didn't want to give you bad info. I think, tho, that the change intervals the previous owner used was between 5000 and 75000 miles.
I haven't yet checked the compression. The engine runs smoothly and strong, no smoke, and good fuel mileage considering the way I drive. Now that the load on the air conditioning is down, I'm getting 43/44 on the road (70-80+) and 41-42 back and forth to work.
VW are the ones pushing synth for these engines from a history of expensive warranty work - certainly not altruism. The synth industry is growing at about 30% per year, driven mainly by manufacturer requirements. The new Toyota hybrids call for a 0W20 synth...

Chris - I don't thinks the HDD is too thin at all. The HDD, Series 2K 0W30 and 20W50 are our top-tier oils and are really strong. The HDD also meets more ACEA specs and both VW 502 and 505. Finally, the analysis numbers are pretty consistant when comparing the AME and HDD analysis. I'm happy with the HDD.

TS - I took the car 'off-line' the other night for new front rotors and pads..and since it was in the garage and I had a can of powerfoam just sitting there...

I pulled the glow plugs and filled the cylinders full of foam and let it work. I rocked the car back and forth in gear to mix things around and hopefully shift the rings a bit. I blew out the first application by turning the engine over...I now have a newly decorated ceiling in the garage. The second fill of PF sat all night. After blowing all the PF out of the engine the next day(it atomizes pretty well when it's squirted out of the glow plug holes!...good thing I don't smoke...), I inserted the plugs and it fired right up. Just a hint of black smoke when it first ran. I got a couple of good clouds shifting between first and second, tho. Then all clear. Came back in, drained a bit of oil, 40 minutes of fast idle with a can of flush, and new HDD and filter. I'll run a couple of thousand miles and get a sample in and see if the numbers come down. Sorry - just couldn't wait on the BD.

 

[Robbie Alexander]

quote:

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Originally posted by Terry:
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Chromium is way to high and is wearing the rings,cylinder walls at a rate you DO NOT want.
--How can you tell it's just there, Terry?
BTW on a Diesel, This is correct:
Chrome 22 15
TEN (10) I repeat TEN is abnormal and 30 Severe.
This is ABNORMAL - SEVERE, and I would take Terry's advice here. It would be similar if you guys got say SI at 42 or AL at say 45, Would you guys say it's okay... I bet not.

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This is soot induced and dispersant is loaded with soot ( fallout) at a level that is causing increased wear.
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Would a Bypass be better here?
Would an increase in Filter maintenance be safer?


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To correct this situation change the oil filter and add at least 2 ounces per qt of LC to the crankcase or 10% of LC by volune, then top up a bit with fresh HDD, this will begin eating soot and containing it in filter.
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How do you EAT SOOT?
And would you not also increase the filter changes in the mean time, If not WHY?

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Use Fuel Power( start with 2 ounces per 5 gallons first tank, then 1 ounce to 5 gallons) to negate the soot production on injector/cc side. Clean the EGR system out manually.
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Why not go several tanks at an elevated dose?

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