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#586077 - 07/30/02 08:23 PM Rotella T XLA 15w40 Cummins 8.3 TA engine
BOBISTHEOILGUY Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 1874
Loc: Ocala, Florida
Originally posted by
con carne
Junior Member
Member # 167

posted July 31, 2002 10:59 AM

Here are the results of the samples from two identical log-loader machines with Cummins 6C 8.3 TA engines with identical hours. (5000 - 6000 hrs. for these tests) The oil used was Shell Rotella T XLA 15W40, 250 hr. intervals. I have four samples from two machines, but I have posted only the best and the worst. These machines also work in extremely dusty conditions and at high elevations. (5000 ft.)

code:
Fe  10      29
Cr 0 1
Ni 0 0
Si 2 4
Al 0 1
Pb 0 0
Sn 0 0
Cu 0 0
Na 1 2
K 0 0
B 1441 964
Ag 0 0
Mo 0 0
Mg 15 13
Zn 1474 1544
Ca 3258 3766
Ba 0 1

Soot 86 109 (% of allowable)

OX 81 91 ( " )

SUL 31 45 ( " )

V40 119.5 132.7
V100 14.9 15.7



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#586078 - 07/30/02 08:23 PM Re: Rotella T XLA 15w40 Cummins 8.3 TA engine
BOBISTHEOILGUY Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 1874
Loc: Ocala, Florida
Those oxidation # levels are screaming change me!

Oil oxidation is the reading of quanity of oxidation products in a used lubricant and is a direct measurement of the oil's service ability. Excessive levels of oxidation products are normally formed because of overextended drain intervals of overheating.

Measured in %allowable, the oil should be changed before 100% allowable oxidation is reached.
0-50=normal
51-74=abnormal
75-99=severe
100=> excessive

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#586079 - 07/30/02 08:53 PM Re: Rotella T XLA 15w40 Cummins 8.3 TA engine
Terry Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 3845
Loc: Greenville , Texas
Bob hold your horses, the scale used above is what I call the CAT scale.

The values used are based on a 0-199 absorbance,transmittance and % weight scale. The machine is probably the Nicolet omnic intergra FTIR. Divide the #'s by 1/2 and thats what you are used to seeing with Schaeffers and Amsoils labs.
That CAT scale is biased to provide a large margin for error.Normally I use % transmittance -100 x 2 to get %allowable then divide that value by 2 to get a approximation to compare to the values the other labs use.
The type oil base can dramtically affect these readings and thats why an experienced analyst has got to interpret the data .

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#586080 - 07/31/02 09:12 AM Re: Rotella T XLA 15w40 Cummins 8.3 TA engine
Terry Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 3845
Loc: Greenville , Texas
Note that each lab can adjust their % allowable value depending on how accurate their analysts are.

At 50% transmittance your % allowable by the CAT standard would be 100%. That same value would equate to 1.7 % absorbance,4.00 weight.

Mark Mathys of Butler CAT ran a log comparison scale that I use. I aslo consulted with the manufactorer of the FTIR to verify it. By the way Butler does very good analysis work. Rule of thumb and not gospel because of variability is
SOOT 100 to 160 %
OXD 40%
NOX 50%
Sulfur 50%
These are for Heavy duty diesel engines and are very conservative IMHO. DONOT use these guidelines for gasoline car values, I take those on a case by case engine/oil combo with my customers

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#586081 - 07/30/02 11:40 PM Re: Rotella T XLA 15w40 Cummins 8.3 TA engine
deepsquat Offline


Registered: 07/11/02
Posts: 960
Loc: Tacoma ,WA
do these engines have bypass filters on them? ...My guess is no ...they look like the perfect candidate for one. The wear levels look very low, and the additive package is in great shape ..a small amout of silicon...and a slightly elivated soot level..I would be willing to bet $$ that a bypass would cut the soot level down 1/2 and allow an extention of the drain interval to at least 500hrs.

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#586082 - 07/31/02 01:30 AM Re: Rotella T XLA 15w40 Cummins 8.3 TA engine
con carne Offline


Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 60
Loc: British Columbia
These engines do have a bypass filters incorporated into their LF3000 Fleetguard filters.

Bob - wear has been held down to very low levels despite the condition of the oil at the time of drain. What is the difference in price between Rotella and Schaeffer where you are?

[ July 31, 2002, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: con carne ]

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#586083 - 07/31/02 07:36 AM Re: Rotella T XLA 15w40 Cummins 8.3 TA engine
deepsquat Offline


Registered: 07/11/02
Posts: 960
Loc: Tacoma ,WA
we are talking about 2 different types of bypass....The Fleetguard 's bypass is a means to which the oil would be rerouted around the filter, if it were to get plugged.
The bypass I am talking about ( Have one on my car) takes a small amount of oil from a pressurized source....say the oil sending unit ...and it is run through a filter at a much slower rate then oil goes through a OEM filter.
There are many different types of bypass filters on the market ...I use a Gulf Coast filter.. Gulf coast runs the oil through toilet paper ...this filters down to .5 microns ...or for big rigs a roll of paper towels.
Check my earlier rusults with 22000 ,mile on the oil ...it is still in great shape ...will test it again at 30000 mile in a few weeks ....do a few searches on the web you will be amazed at how well this device works ...hell I am suprised that not many of you on this board have one on you car now...well worth the 150$ in the savings in oil changes alone ...let alone the extremely low rate of wear my engine is experiancing

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#586084 - 07/31/02 07:56 AM Re: Rotella T XLA 15w40 Cummins 8.3 TA engine
Terry Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 3845
Loc: Greenville , Texas
Deepsquat,The Fleetguard LF 3000 is a true bypass filter using stacked disc technology and has similar filtering capability as your more "remote filters". Many heavy equipemnt applications use a combo filter like this. It's not just a bypass valve system. I really like Fleeguard filters, just wish they had more applications for our daily drivers that have the glass synthetic media.

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#586085 - 07/31/02 09:39 AM Re: Rotella T XLA 15w40 Cummins 8.3 TA engine
con carne Offline


Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 60
Loc: British Columbia
Thanks Terry, that is correct.

Fleetguard also makes a higher-end version of the LF3000, it is more expensive and more suitable for extended drains. I'm going from memory here, I think it is the LF9000 or LF9001...something like that.

Regarding the soot, it is really not much to get excited about. As Terry pointed out, this is percentage of allowable and of course, it all depends on what the allowable is. I did look into this with the lab and with Cummins - it was determined that the ACTUAL soot levels were well within Cummins' specs.

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#586086 - 07/31/02 04:44 PM Re: Rotella T XLA 15w40 Cummins 8.3 TA engine
BOBISTHEOILGUY Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 1874
Loc: Ocala, Florida
quote:
Originally posted by Terry:
The values used are based on a 0-199 absorbance,transmittance and % weight scale. The machine is probably the Nicolet omnic intergra FTIR. Divide the #'s by 1/2 and thats what you are used to seeing with Schaeffers and Amsoils labs.

If taken that into consideration, I'd thought that oxidation levels at 81/2=40.5% 91/2=45.5% , both approaching the 50% levels. I guess what your saying is that 50% level of oxidation in a cat engine is acceptable as this is what they are basing their limits on and not a car.

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#586087 - 07/31/02 06:33 PM Re: Rotella T XLA 15w40 Cummins 8.3 TA engine
Terry Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 3845
Loc: Greenville , Texas
Thats correct Bob. Remember these are a rule of thumb and not absolutes. As an analyst it is just a trip wire for you to look closer at all the other aspects of the sample. Yes it is a guide only for Heavy duty diesels. Syn oils in a automotive application seem to run the oxidation abnormally high so that can be misinterpreted as a problem.

My key to good analysis is as molekule put it "to know the condition of the engine" (paraphrase) the oil condition is secondary if wear is low.

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