Open vs. LSD for an on-road non racecar

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JHZR2

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Hi,

Im getting a new diff for my BMW. Mine whines and its annoying on the highway.

My question is, for an on-road only, non race, non auto-x car, where spirited driving is going over 3000 RPM or 75 MPH, is there any benefit to having an LSD over an open diff?

With respect to drivetrain losses, is an open diff more efficient? Does an LSD cause more tire wear?

My BMW is poor in the snow, due to light weight. Snow tires help a lot, but Im curious if an LSD really helps in starting to gain traction and momentum in the snow.

All in all, is it worth it to get an LSD, iven that the car is already poor in snow, and I try to not accelerate hard in corners, etc.

Can anyone give me the pros and cons to each one?

Thanks!

JMH
 
From what I've seen comparing my 4x4 open diff truck to others with limited slips; on mixed traction surfaces like pavement with slushy snow or some mud or wet grass a limited slip works nicely, but on uniformly low traction surfaces like ice or maybe even lots of standing water a limited slip can result in breaking the rear end loose. When a wheel starts slipping the limited slip is supposed to divert some torque to the other wheel that isn't slipping; with one wheel on pavement and the other in mud this works great, but when both wheels are on the verge of breaking loose, kie on ice, both wheels are now much more prone to breaking loose.

I prefer an open diff, decent tires, and chains for really bad winter conditions, and am waiting to see what type of selectable lockers become available for my truck for dealing with other conditions. With an open diff you 'fail gracefully', just spinning a tire and then engaging the 4x4, while with a limited slip you don't have control on when they engage and may fail badly.
 
For the average driver an LSD is unnecessary. If you put your foot down with the wheels turned or on a loose surface (eg snow) then LSD is great.

If there is no big differnce in price I would put in a LSD.
 
I think anyone who drives in snow could use a LSD. As for which LSD, I'd say the Torsen T2 is the most "natural feeling" of them, as it behaves exactly like an open rear, until the need for torque transfer occurs.

The only real con of the Torsen, vs an open rear, is price. One caveat is, unlike clutch type LSDs, if you have one wheel on ice, it will spin, but if you give it a little brake, it will pull right off.

The downside to a clutch type LSD, is that it has a fixed amount of resistance to differentiation, which may not be the best thing in snow and ice. The upside, is that in the "one wheel on ice" situation, it would tranfer the torque to the wheel with grip automatically.

I've had both on the Impala, and in slippery situations, the Torsen is much more controllable than the clutch type.

Effeciency and tirelife are the same. Well, for the average driver. For me, tire life is much shorter with an open rear....

[ May 19, 2005, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: VaderSS ]
 
I guess I have some relevant experience with similar cars, having driven two Porsche 944s through Canadian winters. I had a 1987 944S with LSD and a 1989 944 S2 without LSD. While the S2 has about an extra 150 pounds and about 20 extra horsepower, they are otherwise similar. Both had Pirelli winter tires, although the less powerful car with LSD had narrower rubber.

The car with LSD was much better in the only area where I ever felt it count. Low speed on ice. The whole pulling out of a driveway and getting underway from a standing start. The car with LSD was a more driveable winter car than just about anything I ever drove. In three CDN winters I was never stuck. Never had to get out and push. Better than my girlfriend's Honda Civic, which got stuck in the driveway every couple of weeks. On the iciest day I have ever seen in Toronto, I drove to work in my sports car past many many 4wd vehicles spun off the road.

The similar car without LSD encountered wheel spin trying to get going on ice.

In my fancy lightweight relatively powerful German car experience in the winter on ice, LSD was a huge difference. Night and day.
 
drove both with and without LSD. i greatly prefer the LSD.

in low traction situations (wet hills, snow) it really is a big win. particularly in rwd vehicles that tend to lack sufficient weight in the rear.

generally, i guess the big concern with lsd as far as driveability is both wheels breaking free. however, lsd's are not biased 50/50 to prevent total loss of control. usually one wheel will start to spin before the other and give you enough warning to get off the gas.
 
In a general consumer car with Front Wheel Drive...power will always go to the wheel with the LEAST traction.

This of course means that if you are even in any situation where one wheel is sitting in a puddle, or on ice, thats where all the power goes. Nice system eh? Keeps people from spinning out.

With an LSD, the car will transfer power around depending on the amount of slippage, and the configuration of the differential. This means more traction on crappy roads, powering out of a curve, on wet roads, and on snow/icy roads.

Its a plus plus situation all around. I wish mazda had one for the 6s...it needs it SOOO badly.

The best case scenario would be something like an EVO (this depends on year/model) which not only has AWD, but LSD's on the front and rear differential. This of course means the evo can transfer power any of the single 4 wheels as needs be, or to two, three, or four. One of the reason why its such a nimble and fantastic vehicle.
 
crossbow: Ive goten started on some nasty stuff in FWD cars, and would count on them more than a rwd car in the snow. My saab is stellar, and if FWD. I guess Ive been lucky - what you describe doesnt sound like fun.

ANyway, I am convined to keep pursuing LSD. Thanks all for the replies!

JMH
 
I've used a Torsen differential with less torque bias than what VaderSS is using (Detroit TrueTrac) and now I switched over to visco (viscous coupling) in the form of a Ford Traction-Lok.
 
A brother talked to an Alaskan state trooper who had done a survey of winter accidents vs vehicle type. Top heavy vehicles like SUVs were the worst as they tended to roll and end upside down, slower, heavy cars like older Volvos tended to do the best as they just slid off of the road, and pickups were often bass ackwards. I suggested that not only were pickups light in the rear, but with a limited slip the rear end tended to break loose.
 
In a rear wheel drive car, the LSD makes a big difference. I had one a long time ago in a Valiant. Went through the horrendous late 70 winters with it. Got stuck trying to go where I shouldn't sometimes. Once I was only a foot off the state highway, but straight up. The LSD is great those times where otherwise you do have at least one rear wheel on something solid. None of the nonsense where you set there because the other wheel spins. Unfortunately, the LSD does nothing to correct the dreaded fishtail, maybe adding to it. The back wheels may produce enough traction to get up the hill, but the front end has its own idea.

Perhaps a list with increasing ability in snow, of things I have experience with.

RWD-poorly balanced-open differential, RWD-better balanced-open differential, RWD-LSD, FWD-open differential, 4WD.

Note, I have never seen the icy slope I couldn't go up with FWD, but FWD is as bad or worse than RWD when you try to back up. In deeper snow or mud, ground clearance becomes everything. Once the weight of the car is on the floor pan, the best thing is a cell phone and the number of a tow service.

Go with the LSD, and you will do much better starting out on patchy ice etc. You may find the back end goes sideways where in the past you may have lost traction. LSD may also only be available in a higher numerical ratio, giving you better performance at the expense of gas mileage.
 
quote:

Originally posted by labman:
Go with the LSD, and you will do much better starting out on patchy ice etc. You may find the back end goes sideways where in the past you may have lost traction. LSD may also only be available in a higher numerical ratio, giving you better performance at the expense of gas mileage.

The BMW came from the factory with an LSD... It was only in my infinite cheapness that I thought if I could eek out more longevity, more MPG, or more tire life, that I would go for it.

But Im convinced to stay with my 4.10 LSD.

Thanks!

JMH
 
quote:

A brother talked to an Alaskan state trooper who had done a survey of winter accidents vs vehicle type. Top heavy vehicles like SUVs were the worst as they tended to roll and end upside down, slower, heavy cars like older Volvos tended to do the best as they just slid off of the road, and pickups were often bass ackwards. I suggested that not only were pickups light in the rear, but with a limited slip the rear end tended to break loose.

I'm with 1sttruck on this one. I have two Wranglers. My wife's is open and mine has a cheap TracLoc (clutch type). If I had to do it over again (I was cheap) I would have preferred a TrueTrac that allows a decent amount of differential before working. If I hit a patch of ice, that tail is sliding. This is made worse in cornering situations where the kingpin incline and camber change can make the front tires skid patches, plowing them forward (not turning) ..while the TracLoc has your tail end dancing around. With a decent amount of experience you can master the body language and do well, but I sweat having anyone else (wife, daughter) drive the thing.

At low speed this is "manageable" ..but doing a conservative 45 on the highway and having your rear end start to track to the outside of a curve is not fun.

Choose wisely.
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quote:

Originally posted by 1sttruck:
A brother talked to an Alaskan state trooper who had done a survey of winter accidents vs vehicle type. Top heavy vehicles like SUVs were the worst as they tended to roll and end upside down, slower, heavy cars like older Volvos tended to do the best as they just slid off of the road, and pickups were often bass ackwards. I suggested that not only were pickups light in the rear, but with a limited slip the rear end tended to break loose.

I was always amazed how well my 83 MB diesel does in the snow, with non-snow tires. of course, without boost, the car is making about 70 hp, and weighs a good 3200+lbs (not sure of the exact weight). The slower-heavy car bit is absolutely true, too bad that stupid girl had to destroy my beloved 300D

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JMH
 
Posted not for the praise for the Dodge, instead for the detailed descriptions of what is happening with FWD and RWD with a limited slip on ice, which the traction control system addresses.

http://www.pfmmag.com/May-June2004/May-June2004The2005DodgeMagnum.htm

Traction Control System (TCS) compares rotation of the drive wheels to the non-drive wheels, then reduces engine torque and applies brakes to the spinning wheel.... TCS also serves to redirect torque to the non-spinning wheel, i.e., it is an electronic version of the mechanically clutched limited slip differential.

The next driving challenge was a simple 300- or 600-foot diameter circle. These are so large, that it can’t even be called a sweeping turn at speeds below 55 mph. One of the constant rate circles was covered with packed and loose snow. The other was glare ice, so slippery that it was hard to walk across without falling.

While the other driving challenges were more fun, and caused more losses of control, the ice circle was by far the most educational. In the FWD cars, as we tried to increase speed on the ice while slightly turning to follow the large radius, all the cars would understeer, then oversteer as a correction was made. Few total losses of control occurred on this course, simply because there was so little traction to get up any real speed. The drivers immediately sensed the near total lack of traction and control. We cornered at between 18 and 20 mph in the traction control, ABS-assisted FWD cars.

On the two RWD LX cars, the driving sensation was different. In the silence of low speeds on ice, you could hear the ESP engage. It sounds like ABS, of course, since it is ABS, just applied to one wheel. With smooth steering inputs and consistent speeds, virtually everyone in a Dodge Magnum and Chrysler 300 got through the slalom at the prescribed 35 mph. You could hear and feel the stability program push the car back out of an oversteer and pull the car back out of an understeer with the selected brake.
As we tried to increase speed around the ice rink in the Dodge Magnum and Chrysler 300, you could feel the understeer start. We would start to drift to the outside of the course. As we corrected with the steering wheel for the understeer, the ESP activated the inside rear brake to pull us back on course.

If the driver overcorrected, which is the rule, the car would oversteer, and here is where many loss of control accidents happen. In the LX cars, when the driver corrected the steering wheel for the oversteer, the ESP activated again. In this case, the outside front brake was pulsed and we were pushed back on course. With smooth and slow steering inputs, we used the ESP to gently seesaw around the ice rink at speeds from 25 to 28 mph. The driver and the car worked together to control the car.

The final driving experience was a lap or two around the snow-covered 0.8-mile Winter Driving School Loop. This road course was obviously set up to challenge the driver during slippery conditions. It had constant radius (sweeping), increasing radius and deceptive, decreasing radius turns with straights long enough to allow you to go fast enough to get in real trouble.

The decreasing radius turn was easy to find. It was the one where FWD car after another plowed off the course and drove head first into the 4-foot snow bank. A tow truck was literally stationed at that turn for just that purpose.

The Loop challenged every aspect of driving, from acceleration (traction control) to braking (ABS) to cornering (stability control). This was not a lap time recorded race. Instead, it was a demonstration of safety— vehicle control under adverse and extreme conditions.

It was on this course that we felt the traction control and stability control working together under acceleration. On corner exit, under full throttle, the RWD Magnum and 300 would just start to have the rear end come around— the cherished throttle-induced oversteer that defines aggressive driving in a RWD car— then the ESP engaged. The Electronic Stability Program can be turned off manually by a button mounted prominently and within easy reach in the center of the dash.
 
JHZR2, your MB was probably better balanced than anything I ever owned. The light back end of RWD pickups with no load stinks on ice. I have shoveled a lot of snow into mine.

The typical FWD car has enough weight on on the front wheels to pull ahead no matter how bad one tire's traction is. Now deep snow with the usually low ground clearance, the cell phone and tow truck number. It is mostly about weight on the drive wheels.
 
I live where its winter from Nov to Arpil and I would not own a RWD vehicle without a LSD. All 3 of my RWD vehicles have a locking or limted slip. The 92 Chevy 4x4, the 2004 GMC 4x4 and the 2005 CTS LS. btw-My first new car with a LSD was a 1966 Impala SS396 back in the fall of 1965.

There have been times in the past that a car I wanted did not have LSD. I had then order it from the parts counter and made them install it for me. Did that to 1 car and 3 trucks. Cheap at 2x the price IMO.
 
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