Toe In / Toe Out, Effect on Handling/Steering Feel

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I read "How to Make your Car Handle" and saw that setting a bit more toe-in than neutral toe results in better high speed stability and less wandering.

I have a 2000 FOrd Crown Vic that is a 4200 lb, 4-door, RWD, V8, sedan not unlike the staple cars of the 60s and 70s (when the book was first published). I have recirc ball steering, the same as when used in the Panthers in 1979.

The factory set slightly negative camber (-1/2* to -3/4*) with 5-6* of positive caster and slightly toe-out.

I was adjusting toe to straighten the steering wheel and figured I should try a tad more toe-in for high speed stability.

Well... I experienced something odd and was hoping you might confirm/debunk what I felt:

At speed, the steering wheel feels light and I can feel all the road inconsistencies - almost like a rack and pinion steering. The light feeling is like the wheels are floating a tad
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:dontknow:

With the factory toe-out, at speed the steering wheel feels dead and limp.
 
Well I can't necessarily explain your perception there..but I'll share my observations with distinct toe in/toe out conditions.

With toe out the car will oversteer at speed. The wheel will be constantly needing input to track in a straight line. Any bias to one side or the other sends the car in that direction.

With toe in you're plowing. This can be interpretted as under steer at speed. You'll still go where the wheel is pointed ..but at a reduced reponse to the amount of wheel input.

I find it hard to understand why they would have a toe out situation under any circumstances. In FWD ..the toe is essentially zero. In all RWD situations it should be varying amounts of toe in to counteract the spreading effect of the forward thrust of the vehicle and the contact patch/scrub radius/caster/etc. (the axis drawn through the ball joints/strut and where it hits the pavement.

I'd like to understand this evolution in frontend geometry that would make this a favorable setting.
 
What's the difference between "light" and "dead and limp". Seems like they would be pretty similar to me.

Toe out will give the car more turn in repsonse. In some instances it may be twitchy.
I'm surprised that a RWD car has toe out in factory spec.

I don't see what you describe being affected by toe.
 
I make small adjustments in toe and drive to/from work to evaluate the changes.

Factory spec calls for about -.125* of toe (toe out)
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on a RWD car.

I think what i'm trying to say is that with toe-out, the steering feels dead/limp as in unresponsive.

With slightly more toe-in, the steering felt light as if the front tires are on ice in a rack and pinion steering. Does this make any sense? I always felt more road response through a R&P than a recirc ball steering system.

I also have to make minor adjustments at speed with the toe-in setting, it's starting to feel like my R&P steering equipped T-bird.

I'll keep an eye on this, but this was the biggest change in steering feel.
 
RE: toe-in vs toe-out, here is the general observations from automotive institutions:

Most FWD cars: slightly toe-in
Most RWD cars: slightly toe-out.

Recirculating ball vs rack-n-pinion is not in the equation here. However, the position of your steering gear has something to do with the toeing.

Also: ideally, the factory-spec'ed toeing is to compensate for all the mechanical "slacks" so that when the vehicle is in motion, the toeing shall resulted in zero degrees (ideal). Playing with toeing to increase road "feel" is the silliest idea for you are literally wearing down your tires if you are "off".

In other words: the more your toeing is "off", the quicker your tires going to wear out.

IF you are to focus on improving steering feel/handling, you shall consider completely revising your suspension and steering. Don't just play with the toeing for it's not going to help much.
 
quote:

Most FWD cars: slightly toe-in
Most RWD cars: slightly toe-out.

This can't be correct. This must be reversed ..unless there's something new in front end geometry that didn't apply in the past. The forward thrust of the RWD car will tend to spread the tires. They want to turn 'outward' on their spindles. The forward "pulling" of the front wheels in the FWD vehicle would tend to make them want to turn "inward" ..this is what causes torque steer and how your whell pulls when you lose traction (in many) on FWD cars.

Every RWD vehicle that I've ever owned had toe-in ..every FWD vehicle that I've ever had spec'd near ZERO toe.
 
What Gary says is the same as in the book How to Make your car handle.

However, Ford, in its infinite wisdom, set almost all RWD vehicles (non-sports cars) to have toe-OUT in the front wheels in stock form.

The rear wheels on a RWD Ford are set for toe-IN (non-adjustable unless you have IRS).
 
quote:

The rear wheels on a RWD Ford are set for toe-IN (non-adjustable unless you have IRS).

I'm curious here (yes, I'm truly curious and not being a wiseguy) ..but unless you have IRS ..how do they set/design/fix toe on a solid rear axle from the factory?
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I mean you can't just bend an axle housing without some type of fudge factor in there for the rotating parts that can function only on one plane (90° to the pinion).

Now I'm aware of non-adjustable IRS versus adjustable IRS.
 
Where did I say I was adjusting toe for better road handling?

I was merely observing the changes in road handling/steering wheel feel with different toe settings.

I'm keeping an eye on tire edge wear and so far everything looks good (new tires just a few weeks ago). I adjusted camber for even tire wear (-1* or so) on both sides.

I've been hearing very conflicting stuff on toe in vs toe out for RWD and FWD vehicles.

I did fix my steering wheel alignment though
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Did I read that right? The toe setting was -.125 degrees?

I've always thought the negative sign meant toe in - and this would be consistent with Ford's practices on other vehicles.

BTW, Metroplex, are you measuring the toe every time you change it? Or just twisting the tie rods ends? Any idea where you started?

Oh, and don't forget that changing the toe also affects the camber of the wheel (albeit very slightly.)
 
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That is straight from my 2000 Vic's FSM CD.

I was told to adjust camber first, then adjust toe. Since adjusting camber would effect toe.

I adjusted caster and camber for a week observing tire wear, etc... Then adjusted toe and observed for a week.

I measured toe and found it to be toe out by about 1/16" or so (I don't have any measuring tape that can precise) but it was w/o a doubt toe-out.

I kept adjusting the tie rod lengths to center the wheels but it kept wandering on the roads so I decided to go toe-in. The wheel is straight and only "wanders" and pulls on crowned roads. It just feels light in the center position at speed (almost like rack and pinion).

Prior to setting it toe-in, the center position felt dead/limp at speed.
 
Perhaps that's a misprint on the (+/-) alignment specs? (It wouldn't be the first time
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)

Metro, I went through what you're experimenting with when I mounted a set of aftermarket wheels. They had less backspacing than stock, and changed the handling dramatically. With toe-out the vehicle was squirrely, with toe-in it felt better, but scrubbed in turns. I wound up setting 0 toe, and it tracked exactly where it was pointed. It was a Mustang, and very easy to drive at interstate speeds.

The point is, if you have aftermarket wheels, that may explain the handling differences with different toe settings.
 
I have factory stock steel wheels, you can't get stocker than these
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Also, the Mustang (Fox chassis) are prone to positive camber problems. When you turn, they get even more positive!

The Vic isn't subject to that problem... and I measured the stock toe setting to be toe-out (verified w/o a doubt). What I have now is either neutral toe or toe-in, I don't have a tape measure precise enough to distinguish this difference.
 
Any pos or neg camber will tend to make the vehicle go in that direction. Just like a leaning motorcycle wheel.
So a little neg camber is offset by a little positive toe, which counteracts it.
Neg cam and neg toe can be twitchy.
I always shoot for zero toe in my cars - mosts specs have a preferred setting, and a range of acceptable. Zero is almost always included.
 
You're right, it does feel a bit more twitchy than before with the negative camber and toe-in.

Now is this a bad thing? Should I be worried? It feels like my Vic just got more nimble.
 
This is odd that they spec toe out. Very strange. My jeep FSM doesn't even give you an option to have a misprint. It simply says "TOE-IN" (each front wheel) 0.15° (preferred) +/- 0.07° (Range)0.05° (MAX RT/LT DIFF)

I grabbed this conversion from here

toe measurement 1 inch = Toe angle 2.38802 degrees

Which means my jeep has .125" of toe in ..or 1/8"
 
We need a consultant to explain the evolution to a static toe-out spec on a RWD vehicle. Someone like one of those two bearded jerk columnists that masquerade as automotive experts ..except one that really knows the "fat" on this.

This is like the first time I saw a "sky hook". It just doesn't have an apparent reason to be this way.

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