Oil for the track

[Graham Piccinini]

Originally Posted by lowon


Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
Here are the specs for Mobil 1 15w50 which Chevrolet recommends for the C-7 ZR-1 Corvette.

Too thick, I do not want to risk excessive bearing wear.
Originally Posted by Vladiator
Daily Driving - 0W40/5W40 year round. With track days - 15W50. Mobil 1 15W50 has a pour point of -38F and flash point of 450F. HTHS 4.5.

LL-01 is just a robust oil for long intervals. With track days long intervals are a bad idea. So I'd give up the long intervals with LL-01 and concentrate on the robust part. In this case 15w50 will be a lot more robust as compared to 0w40.


Too thick, I can link you guys the bearing clearances on BMW TIS, but they are tight. BMW is notorious for doing this hence huge failures on the E9X m3, so I would prefer to stay at a 40 weight a t max.


10w60 Is a bit thick, I agree. It definitely contributed to a lot of bearing failures. But Mobil1 15w50 is MUCH closer in properties to a 40wt than a 60wt. Many even claim that Mobil1 15w50 flows better at 0F than a Mobil Super 5w30 conventional. I have yet to SEE proof, but I believe it so far after using that oil myself and seeing VOAs and UOAs posted here.

 

[lowon]

Originally Posted by Vladiator
Originally Posted by lowon


Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
Here are the specs for Mobil 1 15w50 which Chevrolet recommends for the C-7 ZR-1 Corvette.

Too thick, I do not want to risk excessive bearing wear.
Originally Posted by Vladiator
Daily Driving - 0W40/5W40 year round. With track days - 15W50. Mobil 1 15W50 has a pour point of -38F and flash point of 450F. HTHS 4.5.

LL-01 is just a robust oil for long intervals. With track days long intervals are a bad idea. So I'd give up the long intervals with LL-01 and concentrate on the robust part. In this case 15w50 will be a lot more robust as compared to 0w40.


Too thick, I can link you guys the bearing clearances on BMW TIS, but they are tight. BMW is notorious for doing this hence huge failures on the E9X m3, so I would prefer to stay at a 40 weight a t max.


10w60 Is a bit thick, I agree. It definitely contributed to a lot of bearing failures. But Mobil1 15w50 is MUCH closer in properties to a 40wt than a 60wt. Many even claim that Mobil1 15w50 flows better at 0F than a Mobil Super 5w30 conventional. I have yet to SEE proof, but I believe it so far after using that oil myself and seeing VOAs and UOAs posted here.

I'm starting from a 0w30 oil so I am already stepping up in weight go to a w40, so I would prefer not to go to a w50. I am also still looking for an LL01 oil.

 

[Graham Piccinini]

Mobil1 10W-60
Flash Point : 234
Hi-Temp Hi-Shear Viscosity @ 150 C: 5.7
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100 C: 22.7
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40 C: 152.7
Total Base Number: 11.8
Viscosity Index: 178

Mobil1 15W50
Flash Point : 232
Hi-Temp Hi-Shear Viscosity @ 150 C: 4.5
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100 C: 18
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40 C: 125
Total Base Number: 9.98
Viscosity Index: 160

Mobil1 0w40
Flash Point : 226
Hi-Temp Hi-Shear Viscosity @ 150 C: 3.6
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100 C: 12.9
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40 C: 70.8
Total Base Number: 12.6
Viscosity Index: 186

 

[lowon]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by lowon
Originally Posted by edyvw
OK, so you are still under warranty.
Get that Motul or Pennzoil Platinum. I would personally tried to get Motul X-Cess for your application, Gen2 if possible.


Thanks for your insight!

I will take a look at gen 2 motul x-cess.

BMW TIS will lag behind. Motul GEN2 is brand new product. Motul is pretty straightforward with approvals.
S55 will be good with thick stuff in it, but I would personally stick to W40 weight and highest possible HTHS. In this case that is Motul X-Cess GEN2.
As for your questions about track specific oil, no I would not run that on track and street. Reason is emission system and additives track oil has. If track oil does not have any approval and it is advertised as strictly track, that means probably not suitable for regular use as it might damage emission system.
In case of Redline, I know Redline is very good oil, and I personally use their gear oils. But, getting approval is cheap, and natural question is why no approval? I think answer is that Redline has package that is more suitable for track, and probably would not pass emission component testing if sent for approval.

Lordco has it for $10.32/L for any Canadians who want Xcess Gen 2 5w40.

Thanks for the tip man I will be making the switch.

 

[Snagglefoot]

Do yourself a favour. Don't track your Beamer until it's off warranty, then forget about LL-01. If you blow your engine on the track, BMW will probably download the data with your rpm, engine temperature, oil temperature etc. Might not be a warranty anyway.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
Do yourself a favour. Don't track your Beamer until it's off warranty, then forget about LL-01. If you blow your engine on the track, BMW will probably download the data with your rpm, engine temperature, oil temperature etc. Might not be a warranty anyway.

1. Beemer or Beamer[sic]= BMW Motorrad
2. Bimmer= BMW Automobile
3. I've run LL01 oil(BMW TPT 5W-30) in both the M42 in my E36/5 and in the N55 in my F22. It worked fine for track use in both cars.

 

[lowon]

Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
Do yourself a favour. Don't track your Beamer until it's off warranty, then forget about LL-01. If you blow your engine on the track, BMW will probably download the data with your rpm, engine temperature, oil temperature etc. Might not be a warranty anyway.

BMW does a pretty good job warrantying track used cars specifically the ///M models. I have seen them warranty m sport brakes that have turned green from heat, blown brake seals from heat, blown S55 engines due to spun crank hubs on the track, blown oil coolers due to track debris etc. BMW does solid work backing M owners, and it is very very rare for an ///M to blown on the track stock and even heavily modded unless the mods were not done correctly.


I would forget about the LL01 spec but I am worried these track focused oils like redline 5w40 doesn't have the correct additives to handle street driving and being stored over winter, because like I said before I change my oil before I store the car and I do not know if these non LL01 oils can handle the oxidation stress, or have the additives to ensure carbon build up is minimized, and to protect the engine and turbo. Or are these additives in track based oils solely there to prevent break down under high stress and nothing else. My huge concern is that it is the later and no suitable on the street. Because like I said before I plan to only run 1 type of oil so I do not have to switch between a track oil and a street oil and have to waste money flushing the oil system out everytime.


So if you guys have any LL01 oils in mind that can handle high stresses of track use please let me know.

 

[Snagglefoot]

Originally Posted by MCompact
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
Do yourself a favour. Don't track your Beamer until it's off warranty, then forget about LL-01. If you blow your engine on the track, BMW will probably download the data with your rpm, engine temperature, oil temperature etc. Might not be a warranty anyway.

1. Beemer or Beamer[sic]= BMW Motorrad
2. Bimmer= BMW Automobile
3. I've run LL01 oil(BMW TPT 5W-30) in both the M42 in my E36/5 and in the N55 in my F22. It worked fine for track use in both cars.

 

[Snagglefoot]

Originally Posted by MCompact
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
Do yourself a favour. Don't track your Beamer until it's off warranty, then forget about LL-01. If you blow your engine on the track, BMW will probably download the data with your rpm, engine temperature, oil temperature etc. Might not be a warranty anyway.

1. Beemer or Beamer[sic]= BMW Motorrad
2. Bimmer= BMW Automobile
3. I've run LL01 oil(BMW TPT 5W-30) in both the M42 in my E36/5 and in the N55 in my F22. It worked fine for track use in both cars.


You are recommending 5w30 as a track oil?

 

[lowon]

Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
Originally Posted by MCompact
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
Do yourself a favour. Don't track your Beamer until it's off warranty, then forget about LL-01. If you blow your engine on the track, BMW will probably download the data with your rpm, engine temperature, oil temperature etc. Might not be a warranty anyway.

1. Beemer or Beamer[sic]= BMW Motorrad
2. Bimmer= BMW Automobile
3. I've run LL01 oil(BMW TPT 5W-30) in both the M42 in my E36/5 and in the N55 in my F22. It worked fine for track use in both cars.


You are recommending 5w30 as a track oil?



Probably a bad idea seeing how hot these engines run.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by lowon
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
Originally Posted by MCompact
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
Do yourself a favour. Don't track your Beamer until it's off warranty, then forget about LL-01. If you blow your engine on the track, BMW will probably download the data with your rpm, engine temperature, oil temperature etc. Might not be a warranty anyway.

1. Beemer or Beamer[sic]= BMW Motorrad
2. Bimmer= BMW Automobile
3. I've run LL01 oil(BMW TPT 5W-30) in both the M42 in my E36/5 and in the N55 in my F22. It worked fine for track use in both cars.


You are recommending 5w30 as a track oil?



Probably a bad idea seeing how hot these engines run.

BMW TPT 5W30 is probably 3.5-3.6 HTHS range. It is very stout oil. Do not forget, Redline 5W30 has HTHS of 3.7.
Thinner oil means less resistance, means less heat.
Do you have bigger oil cooler?

 

[lowon]

Me? Yeah a huge upgraded oil cooler that adds about 1.5L of oil. It will be going in as soon as the warranty is over.

With the F22 I wouldn't be worried about oil temps, I would be worried about oil starvation because it has the standard N55 sump which is not capable for handling high G forces.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by lowon


Me? Yeah a huge upgraded oil cooler that adds about 1.5L of oil. It will be going in as soon as the warranty is over.

With the F22 I wouldn't be worried about oil temps, I would be worried about oil starvation because it has the standard N55 sump which is not capable for handling high G forces.

I think oil cooler will be far more important than whether oil HTHS is 3.6 or 3.7. 1.5L of oil is actually substantial addition too. I think Motul X-Cess GEN2 is just right.

 

[lowon]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by lowon


Me? Yeah a huge upgraded oil cooler that adds about 1.5L of oil. It will be going in as soon as the warranty is over.

With the F22 I wouldn't be worried about oil temps, I would be worried about oil starvation because it has the standard N55 sump which is not capable for handling high G forces.

I think oil cooler will be far more important than whether oil HTHS is 3.6 or 3.7. 1.5L of oil is actually substantial addition too. I think Motul X-Cess GEN2 is just right.

Yeah oil temps is a huge battle with these cars.

What is the difference between Motul x-cess and xmax? I know xmax has a lower HTHS at 3.6 vs xcess with 3.8 but what about the oil mix and additives?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by lowon
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by lowon


Me? Yeah a huge upgraded oil cooler that adds about 1.5L of oil. It will be going in as soon as the warranty is over.

With the F22 I wouldn't be worried about oil temps, I would be worried about oil starvation because it has the standard N55 sump which is not capable for handling high G forces.

I think oil cooler will be far more important than whether oil HTHS is 3.6 or 3.7. 1.5L of oil is actually substantial addition too. I think Motul X-Cess GEN2 is just right.

Yeah oil temps is a huge battle with these cars.

What is the difference between Motul x-cess and xmax? I know xmax has a lower HTHS at 3.6 vs xcess with 3.8 but what about the oil mix and additives?

I think X-Max is 0W40? Not sure about composition. I think their previous line up has pretty average HTHS, especially taking into consideration KV100. But, this Gen2 looks really good IMO.

 

[lowon]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by lowon
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by lowon


Me? Yeah a huge upgraded oil cooler that adds about 1.5L of oil. It will be going in as soon as the warranty is over.

With the F22 I wouldn't be worried about oil temps, I would be worried about oil starvation because it has the standard N55 sump which is not capable for handling high G forces.

I think oil cooler will be far more important than whether oil HTHS is 3.6 or 3.7. 1.5L of oil is actually substantial addition too. I think Motul X-Cess GEN2 is just right.

Yeah oil temps is a huge battle with these cars.

What is the difference between Motul x-cess and xmax? I know xmax has a lower HTHS at 3.6 vs xcess with 3.8 but what about the oil mix and additives?

I think X-Max is 0W40? Not sure about composition. I think their previous line up has pretty average HTHS, especially taking into consideration KV100. But, this Gen2 looks really good IMO.

Good to know!

 

[lowon]

One last thing to ask. Is motul xcess 5w40 gen 2 worth it over pennzoil platnium euro being it is 3X more expensive and I am only getting 0.2 higher HTHS?

Also I would love to see some used oil analysis on the motul.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by lowon
One last thing to ask. Is motul xcess 5w40 gen 2 worth it over pennzoil platnium euro being it is 3X more expensive and I am only getting 0.2 higher HTHS?

Also I would love to see some used oil analysis on the motul.

I think both are good to use. Personally, I would try both and see what happens. Run PP and do UOA, run Motul and do UOA. Motul Gen2 is very new, so I highly doubt you will find any UOA. Old Gen1 Motul was always good performer in UOA. But, you can be first to do UOA

 

[lowon]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by lowon
One last thing to ask. Is motul xcess 5w40 gen 2 worth it over pennzoil platnium euro being it is 3X more expensive and I am only getting 0.2 higher HTHS?

Also I would love to see some used oil analysis on the motul.

I think both are good to use. Personally, I would try both and see what happens. Run PP and do UOA, run Motul and do UOA. Motul Gen2 is very new, so I highly doubt you will find any UOA. Old Gen1 Motul was always good performer in UOA. But, you can be first to do UOA

All righty then good advice, I'll start off with the pp.

 

[lowon]

BTW: this is a UOA of pp after 3 track days and street use. What do you guys think?
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1681993