Five Euro Car Myths?

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted by supton
I've wondered about the VW I5. Low mpg but timing chain.

I had a MkIV and thought it fine. After 300k I couldn't justify putting more money into it, but I did like it. Maybe if I got a gasser I could work on it myself? That was what really bothered me about my diesel--although that TDi remains about the only car I have "loved". But driving 2-3 hours each way to get service was getting old, and I started fearing who would repair it if it ever needed a tow.

I figure, my fleet is not young. At some point they will need replacing. So I need to start figuring out what to replace with. The wife will want something green, 4 doors, stickshift, >30mpg. Me, I'm not sure I'm even that picky anymore. Just keep it to a few grand and something simple that I keep going, and I'll be content.

328i? I'll have to look those up.



Timing chain issues on the 2.5L were fixed in 2007. The only 328i I'd look at is 2007-2011 with the 3.0L N52/N51 inline six. 2012+ was the 2.0T.

 

[supton]

Didn't know the I5 had timing chain problems--I was thinking more in terms of, no timing belt to mess with. It's a bit of a job to do every 3 or so years, I guess that's not too bad in the scheme of things, but still.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted by supton

This thread is about Euro cars and myths, and one of the myths in my head is that they cost more over the longer run. So, I'm sincerely asking, please explain why that is a myth, and why my next car should be Euro.


I don't think that your next car should be European. You've stated repeatedly that the fun factor is low on your list of priorities. You can also tolerate owning/driving cars past 200k miles. In other words, your priorities are the polar opposite of mine. I believe that the worst sin a car can commit is to be boring- and seldom will I keep a car past 10 years/175k miles. I wouldn't be happy owning/driving your fleet, and I'd bet that you would feel the same way about my vehicles. Your automotive values and mine will rarely intersect, and there's nothing wrong with that- they are just different.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by supton
Originally Posted by edyvw

Looks bit funky? Yes, bcs. Camry is epitome of design.

Have me there--I consider our '11 Camry one of the ugliest cars out there.

But I digress.

This thread is about Euro cars and myths, and one of the myths in my head is that they cost more over the longer run. So, I'm sincerely asking, please explain why that is a myth, and why my next car should be Euro.

I used to own a VW but despite averaging 46mp over >300k I didn't feel it saved me money over a boring 30mpg econobox. But maybe difference wasn't that different? Maybe I let myself be swayed by the Asian arguments? Dunno. Make the case for why I should go Euro next time, about how I'll save money and time.

IDK why should you go. I personally first take a look how vehicle drives, of course being that vehicle is not some half attempt to be assembled (though my Sienna is not really example of well assembled vehicle). But, I personally always give priority to dynamics, braking etc. If you give me a choice of 20ft braking distance and valve cover replacement at 100k, I will take vehicle with 20ft shorter brake distance and valve cover replacement.
I have already told you, my highest TCO is Land Cruiser Prado, and I owned BMW X5 35d, which is considered problematic due to 1st gen. SCR system in it. And that X5 is in every aspect except off road three times the vehicle over that Prado. However, put those two vehicles as a choice in front of average driver they will choose Prado, bcs. Toyota. So, there are a lot of myths.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by supton
I've wondered about the VW I5. Low mpg but timing chain.

I had a MkIV and thought it fine. After 300k I couldn't justify putting more money into it, but I did like it. Maybe if I got a gasser I could work on it myself? That was what really bothered me about my diesel--although that TDi remains about the only car I have "loved". But driving 2-3 hours each way to get service was getting old, and I started fearing who would repair it if it ever needed a tow.

I figure, my fleet is not young. At some point they will need replacing. So I need to start figuring out what to replace with. The wife will want something green, 4 doors, stickshift, >30mpg. Me, I'm not sure I'm even that picky anymore. Just keep it to a few grand and something simple that I keep going, and I'll be content.

328i? I'll have to look those up.

You want MPG/ Go new BMW 330i. It get better MPG than Camry Hybrid, and drives like crazy.
Last December I got myself 328i xDrive 2011 with 84k, stick shift. Reason is: inline 6, port injection, naturally aspirated, stick shift. It is BMW, which means gaskets will eventually leak, but engines will make 300k easily with regular oil changes. Electric fuel pump will last around 100k. As I told you, I use that car for everything except family road trips. Run to Costco? BMW. Run to daycare? BMW etc.
F30 328i are 4cyl turbos and up until 2014 (I think) had issues with timing chain guides.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted by edyvw

IDK why should you go. I personally first take a look how vehicle drives, of course being that vehicle is not some half attempt to be assembled (though my Sienna is not really example of well assembled vehicle). But, I personally always give priority to dynamics, braking etc. If you give me a choice of 20ft braking distance and valve cover replacement at 100k, I will take vehicle with 20ft shorter brake distance and valve cover replacement.
I have already told you, my highest TCO is Land Cruiser Prado, and I owned BMW X5 35d, which is considered problematic due to 1st gen. SCR system in it. And that X5 is in every aspect except off road three times the vehicle over that Prado. However, put those two vehicles as a choice in front of average driver they will choose Prado, bcs. Toyota. So, there are a lot of myths.

I'd never choose a Prado (Land Cruiser?) -- or an X5. Aren't those luxury SUV's? Expensive tires, insurance, low mpg, etc. They do nothing for my needs as I don't off-road.

But SUV's are only one market segment. What about normal every day cars? Crossovers may be taking over the world, so perhaps I am being too narrow minded in looking at sedans. Point still stands. What gives best bang for buck over the years and miles?

Or are you contending that, because a Prado is more expensive to own than an X5, that any given Toyota penalty box is more expensive than whatever its Euro competition is?

 

[supton]

Originally Posted by edyvw

You want MPG/ Go new BMW 330i. It get better MPG than Camry Hybrid, and drives like crazy.
Last December I got myself 328i xDrive 2011 with 84k, stick shift. Reason is: inline 6, port injection, naturally aspirated, stick shift. It is BMW, which means gaskets will eventually leak, but engines will make 300k easily with regular oil changes. Electric fuel pump will last around 100k. As I told you, I use that car for everything except family road trips. Run to Costco? BMW. Run to daycare? BMW etc.
F30 328i are 4cyl turbos and up until 2014 (I think) had issues with timing chain guides.

What does a 330i go in real world? Google indicates $40,750. Google says Camry is $24,425. I'll assume the 330i is $35k out the door while Camry will sell at MSRP. Camry is 39mpg highway vs 36mpg. Non-hybrid Camry is cheaper to buy and gets better mpg, at least according to 15 seconds of work. I would have to run the same math on hybrid and see if TCO comes out ahead.

Used market, that gets harder to figure out. Looks like xDrive is BMW's AWD?

Let's see, 330i uses a 225/45R18 vs ... OMG!!! does a Camry really 235/45R18? WTH. Looks like RT43's are $150+ a tire, crazy money. But it looks like 225/45R18 is $136, so that is a win for the 330i. Not that I want to buy new, but one has to to factor in this expected cost.

I'd have to spend some time looking into expected repairs, make a proper spreadsheet. I'll get back to you.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by supton
Originally Posted by edyvw

You want MPG/ Go new BMW 330i. It get better MPG than Camry Hybrid, and drives like crazy.
Last December I got myself 328i xDrive 2011 with 84k, stick shift. Reason is: inline 6, port injection, naturally aspirated, stick shift. It is BMW, which means gaskets will eventually leak, but engines will make 300k easily with regular oil changes. Electric fuel pump will last around 100k. As I told you, I use that car for everything except family road trips. Run to Costco? BMW. Run to daycare? BMW etc.
F30 328i are 4cyl turbos and up until 2014 (I think) had issues with timing chain guides.

What does a 330i go in real world? Google indicates $40,750. Google says Camry is $24,425. I'll assume the 330i is $35k out the door while Camry will sell at MSRP. Camry is 39mpg highway vs 36mpg. Non-hybrid Camry is cheaper to buy and gets better mpg, at least according to 15 seconds of work. I would have to run the same math on hybrid and see if TCO comes out ahead.

Used market, that gets harder to figure out. Looks like xDrive is BMW's AWD?

Let's see, 330i uses a 225/45R18 vs ... OMG!!! does a Camry really 235/45R18? WTH. Looks like RT43's are $150+ a tire, crazy money. But it looks like 225/45R18 is $136, so that is a win for the 330i. Not that I want to buy new, but one has to to factor in this expected cost.

I'd have to spend some time looking into expected repairs, make a proper spreadsheet. I'll get back to you.

Yeah, but one is BMW another one is Toyota. You get what you pay for. Otherwise, BMW would use Toyota's engines, not other way around.
By the way, as far as I know that new Camry with bunch of exhaust pipes bcs. TuRD needs ones, comes with 19 inch wheels.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by supton
Originally Posted by edyvw

IDK why should you go. I personally first take a look how vehicle drives, of course being that vehicle is not some half attempt to be assembled (though my Sienna is not really example of well assembled vehicle). But, I personally always give priority to dynamics, braking etc. If you give me a choice of 20ft braking distance and valve cover replacement at 100k, I will take vehicle with 20ft shorter brake distance and valve cover replacement.
I have already told you, my highest TCO is Land Cruiser Prado, and I owned BMW X5 35d, which is considered problematic due to 1st gen. SCR system in it. And that X5 is in every aspect except off road three times the vehicle over that Prado. However, put those two vehicles as a choice in front of average driver they will choose Prado, bcs. Toyota. So, there are a lot of myths.

I'd never choose a Prado (Land Cruiser?) -- or an X5. Aren't those luxury SUV's? Expensive tires, insurance, low mpg, etc. They do nothing for my needs as I don't off-road.

But SUV's are only one market segment. What about normal every day cars? Crossovers may be taking over the world, so perhaps I am being too narrow minded in looking at sedans. Point still stands. What gives best bang for buck over the years and miles?

Or are you contending that, because a Prado is more expensive to own than an X5, that any given Toyota penalty box is more expensive than whatever its Euro competition is?

I am just talking myths. Isn't Land Cruiser quintessential Toyota? I am talking myths. This is thread about myths.
What you talking is not just Camry. Who cares is it Camry or some other refrigerator as long as it is rolling. Heck, Yugo would be actually cheaper to own than Camry.
For example I got Sienna only bcs. it is AWD. Toyota, KIA, Hyundai, Honda? I really do not care. I put them in the same class with my GE refrigerator.

 

[JeffKeryk]

If BMWs are better than Toylettas from a reliability, resale and especially TCO standpoint, then that explains why BMW outsells Toyletta by so much. Right?
Myth.

We are all welcome to buy whatever floats your boat.
All good.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
If BMWs are better than Toylettas from a reliability, resale and especially TCO standpoint, then that explains why BMW outsells Toyletta by so much. Right?
Myth.

Eh, that says McD's is better than pretty much any other restaurant out there. Sales =/= quality.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Originally Posted by supton
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
If BMWs are better than Toylettas from a reliability, resale and especially TCO standpoint, then that explains why BMW outsells Toyletta by so much. Right?
Myth.

Eh, that says McD's is better than pretty much any other restaurant out there. Sales =/= quality.

No, but resale price vs purchase price does.
Hamburgers don't have resale as far as I know.

Don't get me wrong, I love all the cars.
It's just that data tells you a lot.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted by edyvw

By the way, as far as I know that new Camry with bunch of exhaust pipes bcs. TuRD needs ones, comes with 19 inch wheels.

Huh? I cannot make out what you are talking about here. Exhaust pipes?

Originally Posted by edyvw

I am just talking myths. Isn't Land Cruiser quintessential Toyota? I am talking myths. This is thread about myths.
What you talking is not just Camry. Who cares is it Camry or some other refrigerator as long as it is rolling. Heck, Yugo would be actually cheaper to own than Camry.
For example I got Sienna only bcs. it is AWD. Toyota, KIA, Hyundai, Honda? I really do not care. I put them in the same class with my GE refrigerator.

Fine, Land Cruiser sucks. I wasn't planning on owning one so it does not hurt my feelings. If I ever shop for a luxury SUV I will cross it off my list. But yes, LC is quintessential Toyota, so, your data point has trashed that model.

So you are saying I should buy a Yugo because it will be cheaper than my Camry's? That does not make sense, they came and went and were not known to be good back in the day. Plus even I might balk about daily driving one, high mpg notwithstanding. I am starting to think you are exaggerating here.

I have not had a chance to research your suggested 330i, it looks nice and all, but I do not know what predicted costs would run. If it can be as reliable as my refrigerator then I might be happy to drive one. Most cars are just that, appliances, at least they are to me.

 

[blingo]

TCO may also be addressed by emphasizing resale value. Like Landcruisers classic Range Rovers for example have long stabilized. Other RR instead became extremely cheap quickly because of VM or BMW engines. Who knows?

As this thread is about using, combining and enforcing or even starting myths one could always try to put mythology to good use with something second hand powered by BMW. Heck, a current Supra might become t h e Supra to have invested in. People were longing so much for it. (Much too late to invest in true Landcruisers except for barn finds at people who never knew what they'd got.)

With Toyota less and less interested in oldfashioned drives, therefore cooperating more and more, this brand might finally become popular just over leaving the theater now. Put on the masks and buy Toyota-BMW, it's kind of a diversifying portfolio according to edyvw then

 

[Ws6]

I tend to look at value retention off lease. It's a direct measure of "how much vehicle is left".

 

[supton]

Hmm, I'm starting to think I'm derailing this thread, looking for TCO and hard numbers when the thread is more about addressing myths. I'm looking at some very specific parameters that few car shoppers would be; my own car shopping should probably be off on its own thread.

Apologies.

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted by supton
Hmm, I'm starting to think I'm derailing this thread, looking for TCO and hard numbers when the thread is more about addressing myths. I'm looking at some very specific parameters that few car shoppers would be; my own car shopping should probably be off on its own thread.

Apologies.

I've yet to find the myth dispelled. Every euro vehicle I've looked at was high maintenance and broke a lot more than my Japanese stuff. VW dealer told me all the things that would break, and when, on the A3 I looked at once. Oof. Also my BMW owning friends. Always in the shop and never cheap. Except one, and it was an older model. Very droll. Also very reliable. Sure, Japan puts out junk now and then, across all lines, and the Euro brands put out good stuff same way, but averaged? Japan makes great driver centric vehicles with quality parts at any price strata.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted by supton
Looks like RT43's are $150+ a tire, crazy money.


Crazy is right- I wish I could get Michelin PSS tires for my 2er at $150 a corner...

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted by Ws6
Also my BMW owning friends. Always in the shop and never cheap.


My Club Sport, X1, and 2er have each been averaging one trip to the dealer per year since I've purchased them- the visit is for the annual oil change as well as anything the SI(3er) or CBS(X1 and 2er) call for.
Thank heavens I can file a Chapter 7 every eight years...

 

[JeffKeryk]

Originally Posted by Ws6
I tend to look at value retention off lease. It's a direct measure of "how much vehicle is left".

It can be cheaper to lease a Lexus RX450h and buy it out at lease out than to purchase.
It's a gamble, but that's the numbers.