Place your Bets: Will a hard driven but maintained 4L60E last to 100k?

[Parker Dean]

There's just no way to tell. You could do all the things they say to extend trans life and a hard part failure will still get ya.

The number one failure I see in the 4Lsplipping-E j/k) is related to the coverter. GM had a real bad problem in the 97's with a check valve in the valve body not seating properly and allowing the converter to have a couple-hundred RPM slip speed. Needless to say this allows heat build up and wears out the converter clutch pretty quickly which results in metal contamination of the fluid. It's not quite as common as it once was but still pretty **** prevalent. Of course by the time the PCM recognizes the issue and illuminates the CE light and goes to default internal pressures (and the resulting harsh shift) the damage is likely already done.

Next most common is the reaction shell. This is a stamped metal shell that connects to the input (forward) sun gear. Used to be the flange that the sun gear splines were in would just break right off. GM updated the part and now the splines themselves strip off.

Then the input planet sun gear roller thrust bearings fail pretty frequently. This one usually isn't noticed until the trans starts whining badly on acceleration. It takes out the forward planet set, pump, converter, valve body... well pretty much you'll need another trans.

The input bearing is another roller bearing thats just behind the front pump. Pull the pump and look on the input drum at the base of the input shaft and there it is. Or at least usually

This one isn't too bad on hard part damage but with the cost of SRTA's (Service Replacement Transmission Assembly) so low any hard part damage is enough to total a 4L60.

The new one I'm seeing is a failure of the roller bearing racee on the rear planet carrier to ring gear hub. In the last couple of months I've seen a few where a section of the race is missing. The edges of the missing area are jagged and sharp. Think of a donut with between 1/3 and 1/2 of it missing. The rollers are still there and the cage is intact. ow this may be the same type of failure that takes out the input and input planet bearings but by the time I see those everything is destroyed.

FWIW, the Ford truck trannies fail but in no discernable pattern beyond converter failures, and the same thing with the Mopar trucks. I see the Mopar next-most-often to the GM's.

Basically, do what makes you feel good and just drive it. If it blows up don't be overly surprised, if it doesn't then well and good.

 

[Last_Z]

700R4

This is the reason I HAD to get rid of my old '88 GTA Trans Am....cost me $2300 to fix and it still wouldn't shift right....sold the car for $1500....my a$$ still hurts.
Also, if you are a speed racer like some around here (me), it robs you of precious power....killing ET, MPH and MPG.

Solution:
02 Z28....6-Speed
Rick

[ November 15, 2003, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: Last_Z ]

 

[pacem]

Good points.

I will let you know when my 4L60 fails. (165K thus far).

 

[Last_Z]

quote:

---

Originally posted by pacem:
Good points.

I will let you know when my 4L60 fails. (165K thus far).

---

Car? Driving style?

 

[sbc350gearhead]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Last_Z:
700R4

This is the reason I HAD to get rid of my old '88 GTA Trans Am....cost me $2300 to fix and it still wouldn't shift right....sold the car for $1500....my a$$ still hurts.
Also, if you are a speed racer like some around here (me), it robs you of precious power....killing ET, MPH and MPG.

Solution:
02 Z28....6-Speed
Rick

---

TH700R4's had a TV that had to be adjusted properly to shift correctly. I have been told it can be a pain, although I have never owned one.

 

[JohnBrowning]

My own personel records show that most 4l60E tranny failures under 100,000 miles occurs in trucks. In truck applications most fail between 60,000 and 80,000 miles. Mind you that my stats are from average consumers not automotive fluid zelots!!! Most consumers never change the fluid, tow in over drive etc....

If this is in a car and you change fluid every 30,000 and never tow in overdrive or let the fluid get oxidized you could see 140,000 miles. I would not hold my breath though.

I will say that Auto-Rx works great in transmissions!!! I used it in my Buick and it removed a ton of varnish and third party abrasives. I would consider auto-rx!!

 

[TomJones76]

I have a '96 Caprice with the 4L60E and the LT1 motor.
Would not putting her in overdrive shorten or lengthen the engine's durability?

 

[JohnBrowning]

You are not supposed to use overdrive when climbing steep grades or towing. Not useing overdrive is not going to make much difference any other time. Keep the fluid clean and fresh and filters clear is of upmost importance. I have to honest an say that GM cuts alot of corners in material selection that make all the difference in the world. The general design is very sound now!

 

[Jim Spahr]

To answer Tom Jone's question, using Over Drive is generally a good idea and will increase gas mileage and reduce RPM's and lengthen the life of the engine. Some of the exceptions are when towing or when pulling a steep hill. Then you want to use 'Drive', not Over Drive.

 

[Jim Spahr]

Another 4L60E failure I just read on the 94-96 Impala SS list. The Torrington Thrust bearing in front of the Sun gear fails. The needles from that bearing get into the Sun and Planet gears, causing them to fail. There is a new GM trans offered as an upgrade replacement to the 4L60E called the 4L65E. It is supposed to be a bolt in replacement with internal upgrades to various parts including a redesigned Sun/planet gears.

 

[wtd]

I know that the 4L65E is a direct bolt in for any application that uses the 4L60E, but I've read that its electronic controls may not be compatable with the electronic controls most vehicles that run the 4L60E use. Does anyone know if this is true because if my 4L60E in my 98 chevy truck ever goes out, I would like to replace it with one of these.

My GM performance parts catalog has the 4L65E in it for sale, but it mainly talks about it for use behind the LS6 Corvette.

Wayne

 

[VaderSS]

quote:

---

I know that the 4L65E is a direct bolt in for any application that uses the 4L60E

---

It isn't.

Mods required for an Impala;
Flexplate change or custom converter(possibly voiding warranty) due to larger input shaft.

Trans mount modifications, including relocating of mounting hole and creative hammering.

Shift linkage shortening or dissassemble of transmissions to swap shifter input shafts(and void warranty).

Must exchange trans line fittings from old transmission.

Nothing really major, but it's not the "bolt in" swap GM and some magazines are making it out to be.

The 5 planet sun gear is NOT to be considered an upgrade. It uses 5 lower quality gears to achieve the same strength as the higher quality 4 planer sun gear of the 4L60E.

That is no to say the tansmission is not stronger, just that that (highly touted) piece is not.

Specs;
4L60E 360 LB-Ft 6100RPM max
4L65E 380 LB-Ft 5600RPM max

So the 4L65E is slightly stronger, but at a lower RPM. Personaly, I'd spend the money on a mid range "built" 4L60E from a reputable shop, rather than, what I consider, a lightly "built" factory transmission that will require mods to install.

This is especially true if you already have a good transmission, and are wanting to do a preemptive upgrade on it.

 

[Patman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by wtd:

My GM performance parts catalog has the 4L65E in it for sale, but it mainly talks about it for use behind the LS6 Corvette.

---

That's odd, because the LS6 Corvette only comes with a six speed, no automatic is offered, so it is weird that GM would bother to offer an automatic to go behind that engine. Although I'd love to own an automatic LS6 Corvette, especially if it's in a coupe (I'm not a fan of the Z06's hardtop body styling)

 

[pacem]

Car? Driving style?


1993 Carpice wagon. It now has 170,000 miles

Towed a few times in OD, but no more.

Driving style is average. I usually drive to get the best MPG, no sudden acceleration usually.

I found a 20,000 mile 700R4 tranny (from 1989 9c1) and wonder if I should get it to preemptively replace my high-mileage 4l60, I hear it is a direct swap.

 

[sbc350gearhead]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patman:

quote:

---

Originally posted by wtd:

My GM performance parts catalog has the 4L65E in it for sale, but it mainly talks about it for use behind the LS6 Corvette.

---

That's odd, because the LS6 Corvette only comes with a six speed, no automatic is offered, so it is weird that GM would bother to offer an automatic to go behind that engine. Although I'd love to own an automatic LS6 Corvette, especially if it's in a coupe (I'm not a fan of the Z06's hardtop body styling)

---

The LS-6 is also found in the cadillac cts-v. I don't know if it comes with an automatic or not.

 

[Jim Spahr]

Per Car & Driver June 2003, the CTS-V will 'only' be available with a Tremec T-56 six speed manual trans from the Corvette.

 

[M_Minnick]

I have had a 4L65E installed in my '99 Firebird for a little over a year now. It was a direct bolt-in, only had to swap the shift selector shaft. I am very hard on trannies, spraying 125hp of nitrous through the shifts. I have yet to break a tranny, but did strip the input splines on a TCI converter.

I plan on changing the fluid and filter this month, any recommendations?

Mike

 

[DJ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by VaderSS:

quote:

---

I know that the 4L65E is a direct bolt in for any application that uses the 4L60E

---

It isn't.

Mods required for an Impala;
Flexplate change or custom converter(possibly voiding warranty) due to larger input shaft.

Trans mount modifications, including relocating of mounting hole and creative hammering.

Shift linkage shortening or dissassemble of transmissions to swap shifter input shafts(and void warranty).

Must exchange trans line fittings from old transmission.

Nothing really major, but it's not the "bolt in" swap GM and some magazines are making it out to be.

The 5 planet sun gear is NOT to be considered an upgrade. It uses 5 lower quality gears to achieve the same strength as the higher quality 4 planer sun gear of the 4L60E.

That is no to say the tansmission is not stronger, just that that (highly touted) piece is not.

Specs;
4L60E 360 LB-Ft 6100RPM max
4L65E 380 LB-Ft 5600RPM max

So the 4L65E is slightly stronger, but at a lower RPM. Personaly, I'd spend the money on a mid range "built" 4L60E from a reputable shop, rather than, what I consider, a lightly "built" factory transmission that will require mods to install.

This is especially true if you already have a good transmission, and are wanting to do a preemptive upgrade on it.

---

This needs repeating.
On the fitment, I think the TC/flexplate thing is for pre-LS1 applications, and the other stuff will be case by case per application.

As to the power handling abilities of the 4L60E, I know someone putting down(to the tires) 499hp/611ft.lbs on nitrous(heads and cams work as well) with a completely stock tranny in his 96 Impala SS(the real one not the fwd) all he has is modified tranny tables in the pcm and a Vigilante TC. Would I call this normal, heck no but who here is going to ask anywhere near that from one?

I think it gets a bad rap in part because of how hot GM runs the fluid, electric coolant fan on temps are over 220F in the Impala bet it is the same for other apps. Then on rebuild most shops just plain are not capable of building this tranny right so it goes again.

Mike, TCI is crap that is why the problem, not because of overpowering the parts, that isn't even a big nitrous hit. You want a good TC, Vigilante, Edge, Yank, are all good. Stick to a GM filter and DINO fluid my builder(hiperfomance work not grandpa's rebuild) recommended Mobil(not 1) Dexron III it is dirt cheap as a side benifit. Also with even that small nitrous shot a aftermarket ignition with adjustable timing retard is a good idea, do yourself a favor and get one that also has a window switch so you can shut the juice off during the shift. Much cheaper than the rebuild you will eventually need if you keep doing what you are now. Just my tranny build and TC(install was done by me) was over $2K and that was just for an NA car with a projected future HP of no more than 400HP or so. You would need even more of a build.
There is one other word to learn in keeping this tranny alive particularly in a performance application but does apply to all TRANSGO , if done right part throttle is still nice and smooth so no drawbacks.

 

[Grease is the word]

If you get to 80 to 100K and start to get hard 1-2 shifts after it gets warmed up and throwing 1870 codes you have the 4L60E worn valve body issue.

Here is a search for just 4L60E and 1870 on Google. It is so prevalent it is not funny.

http://www.google.com/search?q=4l60e+1870&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&start=10&sa=N

There are tons of companies that make valve body retrofits for this situation.

Been there done that, got the valve body update. You can DIY for about $60 or pay someone about $200 to $250.

 

[M_Minnick]

quote:

---

Originally posted by DJ:

Mike, TCI is crap that is why the problem, not because of overpowering the parts, that isn't even a big nitrous hit. You want a good TC, Vigilante, Edge, Yank, are all good. Stick to a GM filter and DINO fluid my builder(hiperfomance work not grandpa's rebuild) recommended Mobil(not 1) Dexron III it is dirt cheap as a side benifit. Also with even that small nitrous shot a aftermarket ignition with adjustable timing retard is a good idea, do yourself a favor and get one that also has a window switch so you can shut the juice off during the shift. Much cheaper than the rebuild you will eventually need if you keep doing what you are now. Just my tranny build and TC(install was done by me) was over $2K and that was just for an NA car with a projected future HP of no more than 400HP or so. You would need even more of a build.
There is one other word to learn in keeping this tranny alive particularly in a performance application but does apply to all TRANSGO , if done right part throttle is still nice and smooth so no drawbacks.

---

I had a Yank before the TCI, but I burned up the lock-up clutch due to too much line pressure from a Transgo shift kit install. The kit may have been installed improperly as I was never really happy with it from the get-go. The 4L65 was a warranty replacement for that tranny(I was working in the parts department at thet time). I still have yet to re-install the TCI after it was repaired. If the 4L65 fails, I will most likely end up going to a TH350, as there is no way i'm paying over $2k for something that is not guaranteed to live. The window switch is definately something i've been thinking about, especially since the car will be 2-staged and hopefully in the 10's by end of summer.

Mike