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Chevron Phillips Synfluid® PAO FAQ #5453049 06/13/20 05:28 PM
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Gokhan Offline OP
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Chevron Phillips explains the superiority of PAO in oxidation tests among its other desired properties in this FAQ.

https://www.cpchem.com/what-we-do/solutions/polyalphaolefins/faq

Here is an excerpt:

  • Has the quality of Group III base oils achieved equality with PAOs?


Group III mineral oils and Group IV PAOs are not of the same quality. Some properties such as Viscosity Index (VI) or °C viscosity can approach those of PAOs. However, Group III base stocks are derived from multiple feedstock choices and processing technologies, which create variability in the properties. PAOs on the other hand are derived from a clearly defined processing technology using petrochemically pure alpha olefins. So, whether used for gear or engine oils, PAOs provide more consistent properties and a level of purity not available from other base oil groups. The uniquely beneficial quality of PAOs has been demonstrated in a series of European engine tests. Three stringent test standards required by Volkswagen and Mercedes-Benz engines show the impact of the variability of Group III oils:

[Linked Image from cpchem.com]

This data illustrates lot-to-lot variability, which has been recognized for the Group III oils. While one lot of Group IIIA mineral oil passed this battery of tests, it is quite different from the quality of the other Group III stocks. Group IIIB was unable to consistently pass the TDI or M111 tests. Furthermore, the arbitrary distinction of 120 VI between Group II and III oils makes the quality requirements even more confusing. For instance, many producers have tailored production to “Group II+” stocks at 118–119 VI, just below the ambiguous Group III limit of 120VI. The VI of PAOs typically only varies one to two points. This is one clear benefit of using a carefully designed base oil. With today’s oils requiring a higher-quality lubricant base stock to meet more stringent tests, polyalphaolefins are perfectly tailored and consistently manufactured to meet the challenge.

  • Today’s lubricants demand better oxidative stability. What advantages do Synfluid® PAOs have?


Oxidative stability is a critical property enabling oils to resist sludge formation and degradation while in service. PAO-based lubricants offer a significant advantage in oxidative stability. The rotary bomb bench test is a strong predictor of how base oils will perform in many automotive and industrial applications. The chart below shows rotary bomb (ASTM D2272) results between Synfluid® PAOs and some mineral oils.

[Linked Image from cpchem.com]

Synfluid® PAOs have been carefully designed to yield oxidative induction times greater than 2,500 minutes with 0.5 percent antioxidant. This is a far greater benefit than can be achieved from other base oils.

PAOs also resist viscosity increases upon oxidation, which is important in sequence IIIE and VW T4 engine tests. These combined benefits provide the properties required for severe service applications and extended drain intervals.

The advantages offered in oxidative stability, coupled with superior volatility and low-temperature viscometrics, clearly demonstrate that Synfluid® PAOs are the highest-quality base oils available in the industry.

  • Pressures in the lubricants industry demand higher oxidative stability. What is the key to optimizing fluid performance when using Synfluid® PAOs?


There are indeed pressures in the industry that require improved oxidative stability. Engine oil tests such as VW T-4 and Seq. III F challenge formulators, and their suppliers, to step up performance for the next generation of engine oils. The relationship between antioxidants (A.O.) and PAO plays an integral part of meeting the challenge for top-tier oils.

Regarding the A.O. package, an optimal PAO formulation will be different than that of mineral oils. For instance, a 100 percent aminic antioxidant package will yield the best performance in the Rbot test for PAO. In contrast, a mineral oil will require various antioxidants depending upon the structural makeup.

[Linked Image from cpchem.com]

Pressures in the lubricants industry demand higher oxidative stability.

This chart illustrates another benefit of using Synfluid® PAOs at increased antioxidant treat rates. Using the same PAO, we achieved 15 percent higher oxidative stability by increasing the A.O. concentration from 0.5 percent to 1 percent.

The key to unlocking the full potential of your formulation requires using the right combination and concentration of antioxidant and Synfluid® PAO.

  • High-performance base oils are required to pass many European engine tests. I know PAOs will perform, but can they be economical?


In the past three years, European specifications for volatility and oxidative stability have become significantly more stringent. Specific tests such as the Volkswagen T-4, TDI and Peugeot TU-5 have increased the demand for higher-quality base oils. The superior benefits of PAOs enable formulators to meet these challenges. The chart below illustrates how Chevron Phillips Chemical has come up with an economical solution to a VW T-4 engine test.

[Linked Image from cpchem.com]

The chart compares two different formulations, one with PAO and another with Group III mineral oils The End of Test viscosity increase left very little room for error in the Group III formulation. Blending lower-quality base oils into this formulation would compromise the passing mark. In contrast, the Synfluid® PAO formulation achieves a pass with as little as 30 percent PAO, the balance being Group I mineral oil. We believe that it is possible to achieve a passing mark with even lower amounts of PAO, further reducing costs.

European specifications, as well as those in other regions, are expected to tighten. This will increase the dependence on high-quality base oils such as PAOs. Challenges like these truly reveal the performance advantages of Synfluid® PAOs.

  • I have read about higher oxidative stability in Synfluid® PAOs. Can this benefit improve a finished formulation?


The benefit of a lubricant to the end user is an important question, and the behavior of a base oil is only one of many variables affecting the performance of a finished formulation. A process enhancement at Chevron Phillips Chemical’s manufacturing facility has resulted in up to a 30 percent improvement in oxidative stability when used with aminic antioxidants in Rotary Bomb Oxidation Tests (RBOT). Focusing on the components of the additive package can further influence the performance of the formulation.

No matter what the combination of additive or base oil, one thing is certain: When you begin with a higher-quality base oil, you will achieve a better formulation in the end. The chart below shows an example of an engine oil formulation with two different quality PAOs.

[Linked Image from cpchem.com]

This formulation achieved a 13% benefit when the PAO was directly substituted with Synfluid® PAO. In our experience, some commercially available additive packages are designed to take better advantage of a specific base stock. For instance, boosting the additive package with an additional 0.4% aminic antioxidant, in combination with the Synfluid® PAO base oil, achieved a 35 percent improvement in HPDSC results. A similar approach can be applied to your formulations or applications. If you would like us to test your formulation or have questions about our formulating experience, give us a call. We’ll be happy to help you solve your lubricant concerns.


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Re: Chevron Phillips Synfluid® PAO FAQ [Re: Gokhan] #5453120 06/13/20 06:36 PM
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buster Offline
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Good stuff. Even when using PAO at lower treat rates, the impact is pretty significant.


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Re: Chevron Phillips Synfluid® PAO FAQ [Re: buster] #5453143 06/13/20 07:06 PM
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js1956 Online Content
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Since Synfluid PAO is made by Chevron would it be save to say that it is used in Chevron Havoline PRO DS FULL SYNTHETIC MOTOR OIL 5W-40 and EURO 5W-40 and what %?


2015 VW Golf Mk7 2dr HB Man 1.8 TSI S

Re: Chevron Phillips Synfluid® PAO FAQ [Re: Gokhan] #5453234 06/13/20 09:31 PM
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Thanks for the information
Very interesting for sure


Just a side note is all this is and I have zero data to back it up

I switched out my f250 6.2L to Redline 5W-30 about 150 miles ago

Just returned from a road trip to East Tennessee this evening
Round trip I avg 15.0 mpg
That’s not great to some around here, but that’s the best mpg I’ve ever recorded in 40K miles of driving

So, I’d say your story has some merit !!

Last edited by kstanf150; 06/13/20 09:31 PM.
Re: Chevron Phillips Synfluid® PAO FAQ [Re: Gokhan] #5453425 06/14/20 06:13 AM
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blingo Offline
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Then of course contemporary testing is meant to be severe, on the bench CEC-L109 e.g. https://www.infineuminsight.com/en-gb/articles/passenger-cars/testing-engine-oil-oxidation/
CK-4 also not really blind for oxidation, as recently illustrated.

And still modern formulations for longest OCI just perform even with their 65 to 85% (msds) standard GTL: https://www.shell.de/geschaefts-und...-rimula-r6-lme-plus-product-brochure.pdf

[Linked Image from s1.bild.me]

Should get quite troublesome these days to obtain real-world hockey-stick-curves doubling to tripling sensible oil lifes in vehicles with just any PAO.

Last edited by blingo; 06/14/20 06:20 AM.
Re: Chevron Phillips Synfluid® PAO FAQ [Re: js1956] #5453431 06/14/20 06:18 AM
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Havoline sells low cost so if they use even a splash of this … I’m thinking the rest is Grp3/Grp2+

Re: Chevron Phillips Synfluid® PAO FAQ [Re: Gokhan] #5453675 06/14/20 11:33 AM
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blingo Offline
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When Chevron by itself once took lots of PAO out of a machine oil and replaced it by F-T, the oil improved from 475 mins to 680 mins (D 2272). Unfortunately again this only went into a note in a patent and not straight into some VII-free 10W-40 that no one wanted. Or only from Amsoil as 10W-40/40 someone could have wanted or however. Just alternatives out there and one of 'em being PAO.

Re: Chevron Phillips Synfluid® PAO FAQ [Re: blingo] #5453951 06/14/20 06:55 PM
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Gokhan Offline OP
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Originally Posted by blingo
When Chevron by itself once took lots of PAO out of a machine oil and replaced it by F-T, the oil improved from 475 mins to 680 mins (D 2272). Unfortunately again this only went into a note in a patent and not straight into some VII-free 10W-40 that no one wanted. Or only from Amsoil as 10W-40/40 someone could have wanted or however. Just alternatives out there and one of 'em being PAO.

OK...

If you look more carefully at that patent, oil improves further if you replace the GTL by petroleum-based Group III, and it improves even further if you replace the petroleum-based Group III with petroleum-based Group II. So, the oil quality rates as Group II > Group III > GTL > PAO according to that table in that patent.

You need to realize that patents are not scientific publications. In fact they cannot even be considered as product guides. They serve the mere legal purpose of preventing someone else from using someone's design, regardless of it being good or bad.


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Re: Chevron Phillips Synfluid® PAO FAQ [Re: Gokhan] #5454025 06/14/20 09:24 PM
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No corporation that submits a patent application will disclose corporate trade information in the patent unless it is either absolutely necessary for the award, or if they have very poor patent lawyers. In fact, if you can deceive your competitors with the information included in the award then all the better.


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Re: Chevron Phillips Synfluid® PAO FAQ [Re: Gokhan] #5454136 06/15/20 03:40 AM
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We're not even talking about the same patent, Gokhan?! This was not the one including "table 3" (where you told me, that all this bunch of oils would have had no problem passing 216h-limits without antioxidants)
before which ExxonMobil, not Chevron then, had compared engine oils over CEC-L109 testing. It was not too specific about the complete uniformity of treatment, but easily sufficient to call it a case.

Same here, while this is older and mentioning for a machine oil swapping out a great deal of PAO for higher F-T:

A blend of Chevron Clarity® Synthetic Paper Machine Oil ISO 220 is made by
replacing greater than fifty percent of the polyalphaolefin base oil with a FT
derived base oil having the properties as shown in Table Xl.
Both the original paper machine oil and the improved paper machine oil
contain the same ashless antiwear additive package. A component of the
ashless antiwear additive package is an antioxidant additive concentrate. By
replacing a significant portion of the base oil in the paper machine oil with the
FT Derived Base Oil A the resulting improved paper machine oil has a result
in the rotary pressure vessel oxidation test by ASTM D 2272-02 greater than
680 minutes, which is at least 200 minutes greater than the result in the
original paper machine oil (475 minutes).


Engine or gears, bench or engine tests, cooling bypassed or not, virtual Großglockner or paved Pikes Peak... nothing won't ever matter of course if you just don't allow yourself to consider anything but your current explaining. What PAO and GTL specifics?.. for example would have been reasonable questions now. Or what this D 2272 had been worth in the first place when R6 LME Plus (your T6 Multi Vehicle I'd expect) perhaps didn't care about although beeing entirely about great OCI.
Such questions are always adequate, even when some funny pic photographed from a monitor lends itself to being interpreted.

Last edited by blingo; 06/15/20 04:06 AM.
Re: Chevron Phillips Synfluid® PAO FAQ [Re: Gokhan] #5454144 06/15/20 04:53 AM
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I remain more than open for real reasoning what ranges of oxidation resistance – from unadditized to per state of the art individually additized – the contenders may actually show off. Even more interesting and relevant of course remain performances of engine oils (and gear oils etc.).

You, after Tom NJ had said

Originally Posted by Tom NJ
Compared to GTL, PAO brings a major advantage in low temperature fluidity, and a small advantage in oxidative stability.

Compared to PAO, GTL brings a major advantage in cost, and small advantages in VI, additive solubility, seal compatibility, and lubricity.

They are comparable in thermal stability, coking tendencies, volatility, and hydrolytic stability.

Most of these differences can be mitigated through additive technology and blending with other base oils, except cost.

Tom NJ/VA


yourself seemed more open a few months ago: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...es-compared-to-gtl-pennz-pup#Post4977627
With one of Rudnicks books not necessarily further from t h e t r u t h than now with a photograph and some Chevron FAQ.

Rudnicks book even had the GTL 10W-40/40 – kind of – that one seemingly couldn't get if he wanted. If now I could and wanted instead of Amsoil ACD 10W-30/30 for example, as I'm more about usable engine oils: What would you teach me to expect from one over the other? Two or three times the OCI with the PAO? Or better something like about the same?
I'm actually harmless and so happens to be this fictious question as one of the two may not even exist ;-(
But with whatever you know by now about PAO (and mPAO) and F-T derived: what's to be expected, when each is reasonably about long intervals? Or maybe what to expect from the Rimula competing with a PAO-strong rival regarding viscosity increase or corrosivity.

As far as I know or heard, PAO might even be the most problematic in formulating and therefore a base stock better not left to anyone formulating something. That's a finishing line of course you can make me strike out if need to. Just an additional gross caveat.

Last edited by blingo; 06/15/20 05:07 AM.
Re: Chevron Phillips Synfluid® PAO FAQ [Re: blingo] #5454162 06/15/20 06:10 AM
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Gokhan Offline OP
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Originally Posted by blingo
We're not even talking about the same patent, Gokhan?! This was not the one including "table 3" (where you told me, that all this bunch of oils would have had no problem passing 216h-limits without antioxidants)
before which ExxonMobil, not Chevron then, had compared engine oils over CEC-L109 testing. It was not too specific about the complete uniformity of treatment, but easily sufficient to call it a case.

Same here, while this is older and mentioning for a machine oil swapping out a great deal of PAO for higher F-T:

A blend of Chevron Clarity® Synthetic Paper Machine Oil ISO 220 is made by
replacing greater than fifty percent of the polyalphaolefin base oil with a FT
derived base oil having the properties as shown in Table Xl.
Both the original paper machine oil and the improved paper machine oil
contain the same ashless antiwear additive package. A component of the
ashless antiwear additive package is an antioxidant additive concentrate. By
replacing a significant portion of the base oil in the paper machine oil with the
FT Derived Base Oil A the resulting improved paper machine oil has a result
in the rotary pressure vessel oxidation test by ASTM D 2272-02 greater than
680 minutes, which is at least 200 minutes greater than the result in the
original paper machine oil (475 minutes).


Engine or gears, bench or engine tests, cooling bypassed or not, virtual Großglockner or paved Pikes Peak... nothing won't ever matter of course if you just don't allow yourself to consider anything but your current explaining. What PAO and GTL specifics?.. for example would have been reasonable questions now. Or what this D 2272 had been worth in the first place when R6 LME Plus (your T6 Multi Vehicle I'd expect) perhaps didn't care about although beeing entirely about great OCI.
Such questions are always adequate, even when some funny pic photographed from a monitor lends itself to being interpreted.

OK, if that patent were so great, why in the world Chevron is still making the the Clarity paper-machine oil out of PAO? PAO is specifically praised four times in the product data sheet. crackmeup

Chevron Clarity® synthetic paper-machine and EP gear oil 150, 220, 320, 460 product data sheet


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Re: Chevron Phillips Synfluid® PAO FAQ [Re: Gokhan] #5454164 06/15/20 06:23 AM
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blingo Offline
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Praised, yes. That's just it. Not data but gospel, praise, belief. All those can change of course. As this might gave gone from 475h to 375h (PDS) now? Could one say fun fact? :-)

Maybe ask you again a few months down the road, what I'd have to expect from engine oils. Such books are already quite an amount of advertising and non the less are FAQ and PDS...

Edit: Minutes of course. Please excuse. Not wanting to be that funney.

Last edited by blingo; 06/15/20 06:32 AM.
Re: Chevron Phillips Synfluid® PAO FAQ [Re: blingo] #5454166 06/15/20 06:30 AM
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This whole argument about GTL, Group III, and even Group II being better base oils than PAO and searching and digging fringe references and iffy patents to prove it reminds me of historical revisionism.

Historical revisionism


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Re: Chevron Phillips Synfluid® PAO FAQ [Re: Gokhan] #5454188 06/15/20 07:11 AM
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blingo Offline
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To try extending your claims that way you'd at least have to put up the other patent again ;-) I don't want to establish new world orders with Groups II+ and III at the top and PAO at the bottom although they became quite good / can be well supported and so are still used troughout CK-4 and FA-4 under severe testing ( with CEC-L-109 too severe Infineum quasi said).

What I turned against were other things and partly can still be checked – although your second thread about it already disappeared, as the first one's still there: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...an-advantage-with-a-vw-turbo#Post5451550

Last edited by blingo; 06/15/20 07:15 AM.
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