20w50 with zinc

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Sep 18, 2019
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Oregon
Hello;

I am looking for some advice on what oil to run in my newly acquired 1969 Austin Mini Cooper S. Being a flat tappet motor, I'm considering the following three 20w50 with zinc products:

Kendall GT-1
Valvoline VR-1
Brad Penn Penngrade (old Kendall green tint)

All three of these seem like common choices in the classic mini segment; also for those unfamiliar with the 1275 "A" series BMC motor; the engine and trans share the same oil. Advice or personal experience appreciated. Thanks for reading.
 
Mobil1 VTwin 20w-50. Great oil w/ Lots of Zn and Ph, good cold flow and high flash point. You could also use M1 15w-50. I have used them in my TR and old Land Rovers for 20+ years. Also used them in my MGB's and Midgets that i have had over the years. Both should also be compatible w/ the shared sump design.
 
im not a Lucas fan at all but..


"Lucas Hot Rod & Classic Car Motor Oil SAE 20W-50 is manufactured with the highest quality paraffinic base oils and is fortified with a unique additive package containing high levels of zinc, molybdenum and phosphorus, which provides a tougher, thicker additive film for maximum protection even under the most severe conditions."

no idea if its better or not.
 
Kendall GT-1 is the choice. Last I knew VR-1 has little if any detergents, used more for the track. Brad Penn is likely the same, is more expensive and is a pita to find. For years until Castrol changed the formula and lowered the zinc and phosphorus levels, Castrol GTX 20w-50 was the go to motor oil for English cars and many other European cars.
 
We use Valvoline VR1 and Schaeffers Racing 20w50 in the Austin Healey and the older Porsches. Both oils protect very well. VR1 does iindeed have detergents...the NSL version has low to little however.
 
I've been meaning to start a topic with very similar questions so hope it is OK to add this here rather than a new topic.

With the move to SP I've been looking for a 'higher' ZDDP oil, but not too much because my cars do have catalytic converters. 1984 VW GLI 1.8L gas and 1985 Audi 4000 2.2L gas. Both call for 20w50 in my climate. I also want full conventional (no syn blends). I've read some of the recent zinc posts here in addition to various reading. Here are some of my questions. My desire for higher ZDDP is for anti oxidation as well as anti-wear, as the cars rotate between daily driver and sitting for months at a time. In terms of the catalytic converter, I know any ZDDP may be an issue, but I am OK with a level that was in the original oils made for these cars before they started really lowering it (i.e. these cars have run SF through SJ, etc for years so a ZDDP level similar to those is fine with me)


Here are my questions

• What are folks thoughts on Kendall GT-1 Competition Motor Oil with LiquiTek, 20w50, for use in a daily driver, in terms of detergents or other considerations? I note Kendall states the oil is for "gasoline-fueled passenger cars" but I did not want to automatically assume that term is synonymous with "street" driving.
https://kendallmotoroil.com/product/gt-1-competition-motor-oil-with-liquitek/

This LiquiTek oil appears to be rather new, replacing GT-1 Competition Motor Oil with Liquid Titanium, so please share any experience with the Liquid Titanium version. Other than the Titanium additive, most of the specs look the same.
The Liquid Titanium info is still available, but does not like you can get to it using the 'front' of the Kendall website or their product search: (https://kendallmotoroil.com/product/gt-1-competition-motor-oil-with-liquid-titanium/)

Kendall GT-1 Competition Motor Oil with LiquiTek has 0.120 (wt %) Zinc; 0.109 (wt %) Phosphorus. Is 0.120 (wt %) Zinc the same as 1200 ppm? I especially ask since I understand ppm could be based on volume or mass, and don't know how that aligns to % wt

Kendall GT-1 Competition Motor Oil with LiquiTek is Rated API Service SP, SN PLUS, which surprises me given the 0.120 (wt %) Zinc, unless I misunderstand what the wt % means. I thought certain API certifications had max zinc levels, or is that only for other viscosity grades. Given it meets SP/SN Plus, it seems it would be acceptable for daily driving

-----

I have also looked at Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil, conventional, 20w50. My concerns with VR1 is zinc may be too high for a car with a catalytic converter. This VR1 has 1400 ppm zinc and 1300 ppm Phosphorus. I've read in some places (been trying to re-find it) that 1200 ppm is the maximum recommended level for zinc before you run into cat problems. However, elsewhere, I think recently on here, a higher number was referenced by a poster (1800ppm?). I also note VR1, unlike Kendall (unless I missed it), specifically says not recommended for use in cars with cat. converters, although I wonder if that is more legal CYA than 1400 being a significantly higher risk than what Kendall (1200?) has. For a car with a cat. converter, what do people think the maximum level of zinc that is appropriate is?
https://sharena21.springcm.com/Publ...bd3/a61538b4-0cbd-e711-9c12-ac162d889bd1


I am also interested in any other oils, 20w50, full conventional, with ZDDP around 1200-1800ppm that may be out there I haven't found or verified yet

I have seen Motul's Classic Performance 20w50, which says it has higher zinc, but haven't found a specific number yet
https://www.motul.com/us/en-US/prod...w50-22064e03-a302-4747-bf86-9881333c9389
https://d23zpyj32c5wn3.cloudfront.n...SIC_PERFORMANCE_20W50_TDS.pdf?1523381292




Just some final thoughts in general. As stated, looking for full conventional, so that rules out Brad Penn/Penngrade and a lot of the boutique oils. Also would prefer a 'regular' oil, not high mileage (that rules out a Lucas oil that otherwise was a possibility). Racing-type oil (Lucas, etc) may be OK for the OP, but have too much zinc for my application. I need a 20w50, so 15w40's (like Classic Car Motor Oil) are a not an option. I also do not want a diesel/HDEO engine oil.


Thanks for any thoughts
 
Originally Posted by Firemedic15
Hello;

I am looking for some advice on what oil to run in my newly acquired 1969 Austin Mini Cooper S. Being a flat tappet motor, I'm considering the following three 20w50 with zinc products:

Kendall GT-1
Valvoline VR-1
Brad Penn Penngrade (old Kendall green tint)

All three of these seem like common choices in the classic mini segment; also for those unfamiliar with the 1275 "A" series BMC motor; the engine and trans share the same oil. Advice or personal experience appreciated. Thanks for reading.


Why do you think you need " Zinc"? Just buy an API SD/SE oil appropriate for your car. Don't waste your money on all the oils recommended above.
The recommended oil is fine.
 
My brother in law has an MG Midget that goes maybe 1000 miles a year. He used the VR-1 with no issues and it was easy to get. I used to get Brad Penn for him by the case at a warehouse in Buffalo, NY when I lived there at a very reasonable price. Again, no issues. Driven(Joe Gibbs) has conventional hot rod oil and a partial synthetic green oil with generous ZDDP. They all good for street use.
 
Originally Posted by SkulltulaHouse
I've been meaning to start a topic with very similar questions so hope it is OK to add this here rather than a new topic.

With the move to SP I've been looking for a 'higher' ZDDP oil, but not too much because my cars do have catalytic converters. 1984 VW GLI 1.8L gas and 1985 Audi 4000 2.2L gas. Both call for 20w50 in my climate. I also want full conventional (no syn blends). I've read some of the recent zinc posts here in addition to various reading. Here are some of my questions. My desire for higher ZDDP is for anti oxidation as well as anti-wear, as the cars rotate between daily driver and sitting for months at a time. In terms of the catalytic converter, I know any ZDDP may be an issue, but I am OK with a level that was in the original oils made for these cars before they started really lowering it (i.e. these cars have run SF through SJ, etc for years so a ZDDP level similar to those is fine with me)


Here are my questions

• What are folks thoughts on Kendall GT-1 Competition Motor Oil with LiquiTek, 20w50, for use in a daily driver, in terms of detergents or other considerations? I note Kendall states the oil is for "gasoline-fueled passenger cars" but I did not want to automatically assume that term is synonymous with "street" driving.
https://kendallmotoroil.com/product/gt-1-competition-motor-oil-with-liquitek/

This LiquiTek oil appears to be rather new, replacing GT-1 Competition Motor Oil with Liquid Titanium, so please share any experience with the Liquid Titanium version. Other than the Titanium additive, most of the specs look the same.
The Liquid Titanium info is still available, but does not like you can get to it using the 'front' of the Kendall website or their product search: (https://kendallmotoroil.com/product/gt-1-competition-motor-oil-with-liquid-titanium/)

Kendall GT-1 Competition Motor Oil with LiquiTek has 0.120 (wt %) Zinc; 0.109 (wt %) Phosphorus. Is 0.120 (wt %) Zinc the same as 1200 ppm? I especially ask since I understand ppm could be based on volume or mass, and don't know how that aligns to % wt

Kendall GT-1 Competition Motor Oil with LiquiTek is Rated API Service SP, SN PLUS, which surprises me given the 0.120 (wt %) Zinc, unless I misunderstand what the wt % means. I thought certain API certifications had max zinc levels, or is that only for other viscosity grades. Given it meets SP/SN Plus, it seems it would be acceptable for daily driving

-----

I have also looked at Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil, conventional, 20w50. My concerns with VR1 is zinc may be too high for a car with a catalytic converter. This VR1 has 1400 ppm zinc and 1300 ppm Phosphorus. I've read in some places (been trying to re-find it) that 1200 ppm is the maximum recommended level for zinc before you run into cat problems. However, elsewhere, I think recently on here, a higher number was referenced by a poster (1800ppm?). I also note VR1, unlike Kendall (unless I missed it), specifically says not recommended for use in cars with cat. converters, although I wonder if that is more legal CYA than 1400 being a significantly higher risk than what Kendall (1200?) has. For a car with a cat. converter, what do people think the maximum level of zinc that is appropriate is?
https://sharena21.springcm.com/Publ...bd3/a61538b4-0cbd-e711-9c12-ac162d889bd1


I am also interested in any other oils, 20w50, full conventional, with ZDDP around 1200-1800ppm that may be out there I haven't found or verified yet

I have seen Motul's Classic Performance 20w50, which says it has higher zinc, but haven't found a specific number yet
https://www.motul.com/us/en-US/prod...w50-22064e03-a302-4747-bf86-9881333c9389
https://d23zpyj32c5wn3.cloudfront.n...SIC_PERFORMANCE_20W50_TDS.pdf?1523381292




Just some final thoughts in general. As stated, looking for full conventional, so that rules out Brad Penn/Penngrade and a lot of the boutique oils. Also would prefer a 'regular' oil, not high mileage (that rules out a Lucas oil that otherwise was a possibility). Racing-type oil (Lucas, etc) may be OK for the OP, but have too much zinc for my application. I need a 20w50, so 15w40's (like Classic Car Motor Oil) are a not an option. I also do not want a diesel/HDEO engine oil.


Thanks for any thoughts


Don't look at Zinc content. Look at Phosphorous content. That is the value that API standards regulate to control ZDDP content. Phosphorous is the element that damages catalytic converters.

So you can use Valvoline VR1, which has 1200 ppm P.

To convert from weight % to ppm, move the decimal point four places to the right. Think of percentage as "parts per hundred", in the same way that ppm is "parts per million". You have to multiply hundreds by 10,000 to get millions. So the ppm is weight or mass related, not volume.

If an oil has an API rating on it, it's OK to run in a street car. So don't get hung up on the Competition title they put on it.

40 and 50 weight oils can have more ZDDP than 30 and lower weight oils can have. The lower viscosity grades are currently limited to 800 ppm P. So a 50-weight can have 1200 ppm P, and still have an SN Plus or SP API rating.

Your cars are 35 and 36 years old. Are you sure the catalytic converters still work? The cars are pre-OBD, so there is no check engine light that will come on to tell that the cat has reduced efficiency.

I think that Valvoline VR1 would fit your needs. It's basically their Premium Conventional motor oil with extra ZDDP. It's available at just about every parts store that I go into.

But the Kendall is fine oil.
 
@A_Harman.

Thanks, great info that is very helpful

Since you asked about the cat's; no I don't know if they are still functional. I do not live in an area where emissions/smog is required. That was another question banging around in my mind but didn't bring up, just to focus on the oi herel. But when it is said that Phosphorus damages catalytic converters, is the damage just limited to the cat itself, or is there any damage that may be done to the engine or other parts of the exhaust system as a result of a damaged cat that is not working as designed? (totally ignorant so forgive me if this is a stupid question). That's really my only concern about the cat, any potential damage to other parts of the car, rather than the cat itself.
 
As far as I know, Phosphorous reacts with the catalytic coating on the converter brick, making it non-reactive. I don't think that it plugs the converter.

How much oil do your engines burn? How many miles do the cars have on them?
 
@A_Harman

Thanks. No noticeable oil burning on either car. 84 VW GLI has ~135,000 miles. 85 Audi 4000 has ~115,000 miles
 
I have had good experience with Valvoline VR1 20W-50, great oil pressure, very shear stable, with most 20W-50s i've tried the oil pressure drops a little by the end of the OCi ( 3000-4500 miles ) , with VR1 no different or negligible from new to 4500 miles.
 
Originally Posted by NormanBuntz
Kendall GT-1 is the choice. Last I knew VR-1 has little if any detergents, used more for the track. Brad Penn is likely the same, is more expensive and is a pita to find. For years until Castrol changed the formula and lowered the zinc and phosphorus levels, Castrol GTX 20w-50 was the go to motor oil for English cars and many other European cars.


Valvoline VR1 does have detergents, there are two versions, the regular one which does have detergents and in fact a pretty good dose of them, and then there is the "actual" racing oil which is called VR1-NSL, which is meant to be run for 500 miles.

Castrol GTX was the go to oil, but a few years back they radically cut back the ZDDP to less than 800ppm sadly.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by dave1251
Castrol 5W50. It has about 1300PPM of ZDDP.


Not sure a 5W-50 would be a great idea for a shared sump type application, it would probably shear too much.
 
Originally Posted by wings&wheels
Mobil1 VTwin 20w-50. Great oil w/ Lots of Zn and Ph, good cold flow and high flash point. You could also use M1 15w-50. I have used them in my TR and old Land Rovers for 20+ years. Also used them in my MGB's and Midgets that i have had over the years. Both should also be compatible w/ the shared sump design.

+1

Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50 is the current HTFS champion in my table; so, nothing should protect a flat tappet better.

Estimated HTFS (base-oil + DDI-pack viscosity at 150 °C) and VII content of selected oils
 
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by wings&wheels
Mobil1 VTwin 20w-50. Great oil w/ Lots of Zn and Ph, good cold flow and high flash point. You could also use M1 15w-50. I have used them in my TR and old Land Rovers for 20+ years. Also used them in my MGB's and Midgets that i have had over the years. Both should also be compatible w/ the shared sump design.

+1

Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50 is the current HTFS champion in my table; so, nothing should protect a flat tappet better.

Estimated HTFS (base-oil + DDI-pack viscosity at 150 °C) and VII content of selected oils


Yes. A few of my vehicles have mechanical or very sensitive (minimally dampened) electric oil pressure gauges and the V-Twin constantly shows the highest hot idle oil pressures, w/ the 15w-50 close. What is interesting is on my TR6 which has a mechanical gauge, despite the thick weights, when cold neither of the Mobil1's 'peg' the oil pressure gauge as much as other oils I've tried (I warm the cars up carefully). Interesting results on both ends of the gauge.

Great analysis Gokhan, thank you.
 
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