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20w50 with zinc #5450661 06/10/20 03:29 PM
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Firemedic15 Offline OP
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Hello;

I am looking for some advice on what oil to run in my newly acquired 1969 Austin Mini Cooper S. Being a flat tappet motor, I’m considering the following three 20w50 with zinc products:

Kendall GT-1
Valvoline VR-1
Brad Penn Penngrade (old Kendall green tint)

All three of these seem like common choices in the classic mini segment; also for those unfamiliar with the 1275 “A” series BMC motor; the engine and trans share the same oil. Advice or personal experience appreciated. Thanks for reading.

Re: 20w50 with zinc [Re: Firemedic15] #5450673 06/10/20 03:48 PM
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wings&wheels Offline
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Mobil1 VTwin 20w-50. Great oil w/ Lots of Zn and Ph, good cold flow and high flash point. You could also use M1 15w-50. I have used them in my TR and old Land Rovers for 20+ years. Also used them in my MGB's and Midgets that i have had over the years. Both should also be compatible w/ the shared sump design.



'05 Lotus Elise S/C
'85 Land Rover 90 diesel
'74 Triumph TR6
'74 BMW 2002
'72 Land Rover Series III 88"
'99 Porsche 996
'01 Porsche Boxster S (mostly Wife's...)
'19 VW Golf R (Wife's)
Piper Pa28-236


Re: 20w50 with zinc [Re: Firemedic15] #5450675 06/10/20 03:55 PM
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krismoriah72 Offline
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im not a Lucas fan at all but..


"Lucas Hot Rod & Classic Car Motor Oil SAE 20W-50 is manufactured with the highest quality paraffinic base oils and is fortified with a unique additive package containing high levels of zinc, molybdenum and phosphorus, which provides a tougher, thicker additive film for maximum protection even under the most severe conditions."

no idea if its better or not.

Re: 20w50 with zinc [Re: Firemedic15] #5450692 06/10/20 04:50 PM
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NormanBuntz Offline
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Kendall GT-1 is the choice. Last I knew VR-1 has little if any detergents, used more for the track. Brad Penn is likely the same, is more expensive and is a pita to find. For years until Castrol changed the formula and lowered the zinc and phosphorus levels, Castrol GTX 20w-50 was the go to motor oil for English cars and many other European cars.


"Hot dog! Groat cakes again. Heavy on the 30 weight, Mom."
2017 Toyota Camry XLE, 13K, 2nd owner
2007 Honda Ridgeline RTS, 98K, original owner
2007 Infiniti M35, 116K, original owner
Re: 20w50 with zinc [Re: Firemedic15] #5450706 06/10/20 05:13 PM
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oliver88 Offline
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We use Valvoline VR1 and Schaeffers Racing 20w50 in the Austin Healey and the older Porsches. Both oils protect very well. VR1 does iindeed have detergents...the NSL version has low to little however.

Re: 20w50 with zinc [Re: Firemedic15] #5450737 06/10/20 06:17 PM
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SkulltulaHouse Offline
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I've been meaning to start a topic with very similar questions so hope it is OK to add this here rather than a new topic.

With the move to SP I've been looking for a 'higher' ZDDP oil, but not too much because my cars do have catalytic converters. 1984 VW GLI 1.8L gas and 1985 Audi 4000 2.2L gas. Both call for 20w50 in my climate. I also want full conventional (no syn blends). I've read some of the recent zinc posts here in addition to various reading. Here are some of my questions. My desire for higher ZDDP is for anti oxidation as well as anti-wear, as the cars rotate between daily driver and sitting for months at a time. In terms of the catalytic converter, I know any ZDDP may be an issue, but I am OK with a level that was in the original oils made for these cars before they started really lowering it (i.e. these cars have run SF through SJ, etc for years so a ZDDP level similar to those is fine with me)


Here are my questions

• What are folks thoughts on Kendall GT-1 Competition Motor Oil with LiquiTek, 20w50, for use in a daily driver, in terms of detergents or other considerations? I note Kendall states the oil is for "gasoline-fueled passenger cars" but I did not want to automatically assume that term is synonymous with "street" driving.
https://kendallmotoroil.com/product/gt-1-competition-motor-oil-with-liquitek/

This LiquiTek oil appears to be rather new, replacing GT-1 Competition Motor Oil with Liquid Titanium, so please share any experience with the Liquid Titanium version. Other than the Titanium additive, most of the specs look the same.
The Liquid Titanium info is still available, but does not like you can get to it using the 'front' of the Kendall website or their product search: (https://kendallmotoroil.com/product/gt-1-competition-motor-oil-with-liquid-titanium/)

Kendall GT-1 Competition Motor Oil with LiquiTek has 0.120 (wt %) Zinc; 0.109 (wt %) Phosphorus. Is 0.120 (wt %) Zinc the same as 1200 ppm? I especially ask since I understand ppm could be based on volume or mass, and don't know how that aligns to % wt

Kendall GT-1 Competition Motor Oil with LiquiTek is Rated API Service SP, SN PLUS, which surprises me given the 0.120 (wt %) Zinc, unless I misunderstand what the wt % means. I thought certain API certifications had max zinc levels, or is that only for other viscosity grades. Given it meets SP/SN Plus, it seems it would be acceptable for daily driving

-----

I have also looked at Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil, conventional, 20w50. My concerns with VR1 is zinc may be too high for a car with a catalytic converter. This VR1 has 1400 ppm zinc and 1300 ppm Phosphorus. I've read in some places (been trying to re-find it) that 1200 ppm is the maximum recommended level for zinc before you run into cat problems. However, elsewhere, I think recently on here, a higher number was referenced by a poster (1800ppm?). I also note VR1, unlike Kendall (unless I missed it), specifically says not recommended for use in cars with cat. converters, although I wonder if that is more legal CYA than 1400 being a significantly higher risk than what Kendall (1200?) has. For a car with a cat. converter, what do people think the maximum level of zinc that is appropriate is?
https://sharena21.springcm.com/Publ...bd3/a61538b4-0cbd-e711-9c12-ac162d889bd1


I am also interested in any other oils, 20w50, full conventional, with ZDDP around 1200-1800ppm that may be out there I haven't found or verified yet

I have seen Motul's Classic Performance 20w50, which says it has higher zinc, but haven't found a specific number yet
https://www.motul.com/us/en-US/prod...w50-22064e03-a302-4747-bf86-9881333c9389
https://d23zpyj32c5wn3.cloudfront.n...SIC_PERFORMANCE_20W50_TDS.pdf?1523381292




Just some final thoughts in general. As stated, looking for full conventional, so that rules out Brad Penn/Penngrade and a lot of the boutique oils. Also would prefer a 'regular' oil, not high mileage (that rules out a Lucas oil that otherwise was a possibility). Racing-type oil (Lucas, etc) may be OK for the OP, but have too much zinc for my application. I need a 20w50, so 15w40's (like Classic Car Motor Oil) are a not an option. I also do not want a diesel/HDEO engine oil.


Thanks for any thoughts

Re: 20w50 with zinc [Re: Firemedic15] #5450754 06/10/20 06:40 PM
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SpitFire6 Offline
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Posts: 93
Originally Posted by Firemedic15
Hello;

I am looking for some advice on what oil to run in my newly acquired 1969 Austin Mini Cooper S. Being a flat tappet motor, I’m considering the following three 20w50 with zinc products:

Kendall GT-1
Valvoline VR-1
Brad Penn Penngrade (old Kendall green tint)

All three of these seem like common choices in the classic mini segment; also for those unfamiliar with the 1275 “A” series BMC motor; the engine and trans share the same oil. Advice or personal experience appreciated. Thanks for reading.


Why do you think you need " Zinc"? Just buy an API SD/SE oil appropriate for your car. Don't waste your money on all the oils recommended above.
The recommended oil is fine.


2002 206 CC 2L 4Cyl. 0W40 FS
1972 Spit 2L5 6Cyl. 0W40 FS
Re: 20w50 with zinc [Re: SkulltulaHouse] #5450757 06/10/20 06:44 PM
Joined: May 2014
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Randy_R Offline
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My brother in law has an MG Midget that goes maybe 1000 miles a year. He used the VR-1 with no issues and it was easy to get. I used to get Brad Penn for him by the case at a warehouse in Buffalo, NY when I lived there at a very reasonable price. Again, no issues. Driven(Joe Gibbs) has conventional hot rod oil and a partial synthetic green oil with generous ZDDP. They all good for street use.


2018 Mazda CX-5 10000 miles Zepro moly 0W-20 Mazda filter
08 Saturn VUE AWD 3.5 V6 70,000 miles Schaeffer 9000 5W30 Wix 51522XP
65 Pontiac Tempest 355 Chevy Schaeffer Racing 10W30 Wix 51061
Re: 20w50 with zinc [Re: Firemedic15] #5450805 06/10/20 08:11 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 13,200
dave1251 Offline
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Posts: 13,200
Castrol 5W50. It has about 1300PPM of ZDDP.


make the inside of your engine oil cap white.
don't use.
Re: 20w50 with zinc [Re: SkulltulaHouse] #5450809 06/10/20 08:20 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,866
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A_Harman Offline
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,866
Originally Posted by SkulltulaHouse
I've been meaning to start a topic with very similar questions so hope it is OK to add this here rather than a new topic.

With the move to SP I've been looking for a 'higher' ZDDP oil, but not too much because my cars do have catalytic converters. 1984 VW GLI 1.8L gas and 1985 Audi 4000 2.2L gas. Both call for 20w50 in my climate. I also want full conventional (no syn blends). I've read some of the recent zinc posts here in addition to various reading. Here are some of my questions. My desire for higher ZDDP is for anti oxidation as well as anti-wear, as the cars rotate between daily driver and sitting for months at a time. In terms of the catalytic converter, I know any ZDDP may be an issue, but I am OK with a level that was in the original oils made for these cars before they started really lowering it (i.e. these cars have run SF through SJ, etc for years so a ZDDP level similar to those is fine with me)


Here are my questions

• What are folks thoughts on Kendall GT-1 Competition Motor Oil with LiquiTek, 20w50, for use in a daily driver, in terms of detergents or other considerations? I note Kendall states the oil is for "gasoline-fueled passenger cars" but I did not want to automatically assume that term is synonymous with "street" driving.
https://kendallmotoroil.com/product/gt-1-competition-motor-oil-with-liquitek/

This LiquiTek oil appears to be rather new, replacing GT-1 Competition Motor Oil with Liquid Titanium, so please share any experience with the Liquid Titanium version. Other than the Titanium additive, most of the specs look the same.
The Liquid Titanium info is still available, but does not like you can get to it using the 'front' of the Kendall website or their product search: (https://kendallmotoroil.com/product/gt-1-competition-motor-oil-with-liquid-titanium/)

Kendall GT-1 Competition Motor Oil with LiquiTek has 0.120 (wt %) Zinc; 0.109 (wt %) Phosphorus. Is 0.120 (wt %) Zinc the same as 1200 ppm? I especially ask since I understand ppm could be based on volume or mass, and don't know how that aligns to % wt

Kendall GT-1 Competition Motor Oil with LiquiTek is Rated API Service SP, SN PLUS, which surprises me given the 0.120 (wt %) Zinc, unless I misunderstand what the wt % means. I thought certain API certifications had max zinc levels, or is that only for other viscosity grades. Given it meets SP/SN Plus, it seems it would be acceptable for daily driving

-----

I have also looked at Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil, conventional, 20w50. My concerns with VR1 is zinc may be too high for a car with a catalytic converter. This VR1 has 1400 ppm zinc and 1300 ppm Phosphorus. I've read in some places (been trying to re-find it) that 1200 ppm is the maximum recommended level for zinc before you run into cat problems. However, elsewhere, I think recently on here, a higher number was referenced by a poster (1800ppm?). I also note VR1, unlike Kendall (unless I missed it), specifically says not recommended for use in cars with cat. converters, although I wonder if that is more legal CYA than 1400 being a significantly higher risk than what Kendall (1200?) has. For a car with a cat. converter, what do people think the maximum level of zinc that is appropriate is?
https://sharena21.springcm.com/Publ...bd3/a61538b4-0cbd-e711-9c12-ac162d889bd1


I am also interested in any other oils, 20w50, full conventional, with ZDDP around 1200-1800ppm that may be out there I haven't found or verified yet

I have seen Motul's Classic Performance 20w50, which says it has higher zinc, but haven't found a specific number yet
https://www.motul.com/us/en-US/prod...w50-22064e03-a302-4747-bf86-9881333c9389
https://d23zpyj32c5wn3.cloudfront.n...SIC_PERFORMANCE_20W50_TDS.pdf?1523381292




Just some final thoughts in general. As stated, looking for full conventional, so that rules out Brad Penn/Penngrade and a lot of the boutique oils. Also would prefer a 'regular' oil, not high mileage (that rules out a Lucas oil that otherwise was a possibility). Racing-type oil (Lucas, etc) may be OK for the OP, but have too much zinc for my application. I need a 20w50, so 15w40's (like Classic Car Motor Oil) are a not an option. I also do not want a diesel/HDEO engine oil.


Thanks for any thoughts


Don't look at Zinc content. Look at Phosphorous content. That is the value that API standards regulate to control ZDDP content. Phosphorous is the element that damages catalytic converters.

So you can use Valvoline VR1, which has 1200 ppm P.

To convert from weight % to ppm, move the decimal point four places to the right. Think of percentage as "parts per hundred", in the same way that ppm is "parts per million". You have to multiply hundreds by 10,000 to get millions. So the ppm is weight or mass related, not volume.

If an oil has an API rating on it, it's OK to run in a street car. So don't get hung up on the Competition title they put on it.

40 and 50 weight oils can have more ZDDP than 30 and lower weight oils can have. The lower viscosity grades are currently limited to 800 ppm P. So a 50-weight can have 1200 ppm P, and still have an SN Plus or SP API rating.

Your cars are 35 and 36 years old. Are you sure the catalytic converters still work? The cars are pre-OBD, so there is no check engine light that will come on to tell that the cat has reduced efficiency.

I think that Valvoline VR1 would fit your needs. It's basically their Premium Conventional motor oil with extra ZDDP. It's available at just about every parts store that I go into.

But the Kendall is fine oil.


2008 Dodge Ram 3500 diesel/G56
1985 Z51 Corvette track car 355/6-speed
2002 Camaro Z28 LS1/6-speed
2001 Dodge Ram 2500 diesel/NV4500+GV
1972 GMC 1500 shortbed project truck 307/SM465
Re: 20w50 with zinc [Re: A_Harman] #5450819 06/10/20 08:34 PM
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SkulltulaHouse Offline
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@A_Harman.

Thanks, great info that is very helpful

Since you asked about the cat's; no I don't know if they are still functional. I do not live in an area where emissions/smog is required. That was another question banging around in my mind but didn't bring up, just to focus on the oi herel. But when it is said that Phosphorus damages catalytic converters, is the damage just limited to the cat itself, or is there any damage that may be done to the engine or other parts of the exhaust system as a result of a damaged cat that is not working as designed? (totally ignorant so forgive me if this is a stupid question). That's really my only concern about the cat, any potential damage to other parts of the car, rather than the cat itself.

Re: 20w50 with zinc [Re: Firemedic15] #5450888 06/10/20 10:05 PM
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A_Harman Offline
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As far as I know, Phosphorous reacts with the catalytic coating on the converter brick, making it non-reactive. I don't think that it plugs the converter.

How much oil do your engines burn? How many miles do the cars have on them?


2008 Dodge Ram 3500 diesel/G56
1985 Z51 Corvette track car 355/6-speed
2002 Camaro Z28 LS1/6-speed
2001 Dodge Ram 2500 diesel/NV4500+GV
1972 GMC 1500 shortbed project truck 307/SM465
Re: 20w50 with zinc [Re: Firemedic15] #5450921 06/10/20 10:57 PM
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drtyler Offline
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Any of those are fine oils for your application. However, Mobil 1 15W50 is on sale at Walmart now for $23 per 5 quart jug. That price will be hard to beat. It containts 1200ppm of phosphorus and 1300ppm of zinc.

https://www.mobil.com/lubricants/-/...FAQs/mobil-1-oil-product-specs-guide.pdf

Re: 20w50 with zinc [Re: Firemedic15] #5450936 06/10/20 11:32 PM
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SkulltulaHouse Offline
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@A_Harman

Thanks. No noticeable oil burning on either car. 84 VW GLI has ~135,000 miles. 85 Audi 4000 has ~115,000 miles

Re: 20w50 with zinc [Re: Firemedic15] #5450981 06/11/20 03:13 AM
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FordCapriDriver Offline
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I have had good experience with Valvoline VR1 20W-50, great oil pressure, very shear stable, with most 20W-50s i've tried the oil pressure drops a little by the end of the OCi ( 3000-4500 miles ) , with VR1 no different or negligible from new to 4500 miles.


1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6 - 315k, Repsol Elite Super 20W-50
1988 Ford Escort XR3i Cabrio - 110k, Valvoline Maxlife 10W-40

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