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Snowbirds Crash #5432284 05/18/20 11:22 AM
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pilottravis Offline OP
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Re: Snowbirds Crash [Re: pilottravis] #5432308 05/18/20 12:07 PM
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Astro14 Offline
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Saw that. A shame that the Snow Birds are still flying the Tutor, which has ancient seats.

A better seat would’ve resulted in a successful ejection for them. They would still be here.

RIP

Last edited by Astro14; 05/18/20 12:07 PM.

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Re: Snowbirds Crash [Re: pilottravis] #5432406 05/18/20 01:33 PM
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ammolab Offline
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Stalled trying to return to the runway? My boss had an engine failure on takeoff-climb out and died from a stall as he tried to return to the runway.


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Re: Snowbirds Crash [Re: pilottravis] #5432457 05/18/20 02:21 PM
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The Canadian military is in need of some new equipment. They've seen the accident rate for the CF-18 skyrocket the last few years, too, as they've aged and the time between failures has dropped.

I just read up on the ejection system in the Tudor. Apparently it is not a zero/zero seat. If true, that's really unfortunate that they would put pilots in a seat these days that doesn't have zero/zero capability. I'm shocked, frankly.

In the mean time, this is very sad for the Captain who perished. I pray for her and her family and friends.

Last edited by IndyFan; 05/18/20 02:34 PM.

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Re: Snowbirds Crash [Re: pilottravis] #5432627 05/18/20 05:29 PM
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Re: Snowbirds Crash [Re: pilottravis] #5432797 05/18/20 08:12 PM
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BusyLittleShop Offline
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Viya Con Dios...

My best conjecture of the tragic sequence of events are the pilot experienced a loss of thrust and maneuver for altitude in hopes for a return to base but tumbled after a stall...


Larry L
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Re: Snowbirds Crash [Re: pilottravis] #5432872 05/18/20 10:06 PM
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userfriendly Offline
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Happened right across the North Thompson River from my rail yard.

Re: Snowbirds Crash [Re: Astro14] #5432881 05/18/20 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by userfriendly
Happened right across the North Thompson River from my rail yard.
I lived in Kamloops for four years back in the '70s. Did two years at Cariboo College. In 2nd year, lived in an apartment on Tranquille Rd in Brocklehurst near the crash site.
Originally Posted by Astro14
Saw that. A shame that the Snow Birds are still flying the Tutor, which has ancient seats.

A better seat would’ve resulted in a successful ejection for them. They would still be here.

RIP
I worked with a very good fellow who had previously done pilot training in the Canadian Forces. He did 50 hours solo in Tutors back in the mid-'80s.

Re: Snowbirds Crash [Re: pilottravis] #5432889 05/18/20 10:24 PM
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userfriendly Offline
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Edit; Make that the South Thompson River. The two merge about 2 miles up stream of the accident site, I'm across the street from the Domtar pulp mill.

Winnipeg!! Good grief, my home town is Brandon, MB

Last edited by userfriendly; 05/18/20 10:25 PM.
Re: Snowbirds Crash [Re: BusyLittleShop] #5433058 05/19/20 07:50 AM
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IndyFan Offline
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Originally Posted by BusyLittleShop
Viya Con Dios...

My best conjecture of the tragic sequence of events are the pilot experienced a loss of thrust and maneuver for altitude in hopes for a return to base but tumbled after a stall...


According to a former Snowbirds pilot who commented in the Youtube video, the ejection seat is not recommended below 2000 feet. So the procedure is to exchange airspeed for alititude and try to air start the engiine. The plane clearly stalled as he reached the maximum altitude.

To have an aerobatic team using a plane with an ejection seat that is known to be suspect below 2000 feet is almost criminal when every other military aircraft, both trainers and combat aircraft, built since 1970 or earlier has a zero/zero ejection seat. I'm frankly stunned to find that they didn't at least have them modified and installed, many years ago. Much of their displays are done below 2000 feet. Absolutely irresponsible move by decision makers over decades. The altitude and angle where the ejection occurred would have been cake for a zero/zero. Inexcusable.

Of note...I saw a comment on social media about "hydraulic failure" causing loss of flight controls, but as in the YouTube video, the Tudor has no hydraulic system. It has manual, mechanical flight controls. I'm also really surprised that a skilled pilot like that would stall. It makes me wonder if the engine had a catastrophic failure that damaged the control links to the rudder/elevator. The Tudor should feel about like a Cessna when it stalls, so I have to believe that there was damage. I just can't imagine the pilot losing it like that.

Canada should ground the Tudors and be first in line for the new Boeing T-7. After equipping their training squadrons, they should then put that jet in the hands of the Snowbirds. Not only would they be safer, but they could do things in their show that the Tudor never dreamed of doing.


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Re: Snowbirds Crash [Re: pilottravis] #5433070 05/19/20 08:21 AM
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^Very good points.

RIP

Last edited by cjcride; 05/19/20 08:22 AM.
Re: Snowbirds Crash [Re: pilottravis] #5433199 05/19/20 10:38 AM
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RIP, We had just went to see them fly near us a week ago... Very sad news.


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Re: Snowbirds Crash [Re: IndyFan] #5433422 05/19/20 02:59 PM
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BusyLittleShop Offline
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Originally Posted by IndyFan
The Tudor should feel about like a Cessna when it stalls, so I have to believe that there was damage. I just can't imagine the pilot losing it like that.



I agree if you're talking about the Cessna T36 Tweet known as the 6,000 pd dog whistle that flies...

[Linked Image]


Larry L
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Re: Snowbirds Crash [Re: IndyFan] #5434585 05/20/20 08:29 PM
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Surestick Offline
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Originally Posted by IndyFan
Originally Posted by BusyLittleShop
Viya Con Dios...

My best conjecture of the tragic sequence of events are the pilot experienced a loss of thrust and maneuver for altitude in hopes for a return to base but tumbled after a stall...


According to a former Snowbirds pilot who commented in the Youtube video, the ejection seat is not recommended below 2000 feet. So the procedure is to exchange airspeed for alititude and try to air start the engiine. The plane clearly stalled as he reached the maximum altitude.

To have an aerobatic team using a plane with an ejection seat that is known to be suspect below 2000 feet is almost criminal when every other military aircraft, both trainers and combat aircraft, built since 1970 or earlier has a zero/zero ejection seat. I'm frankly stunned to find that they didn't at least have them modified and installed, many years ago. Much of their displays are done below 2000 feet. Absolutely irresponsible move by decision makers over decades. The altitude and angle where the ejection occurred would have been cake for a zero/zero. Inexcusable.

Of note...I saw a comment on social media about "hydraulic failure" causing loss of flight controls, but as in the YouTube video, the Tudor has no hydraulic system. It has manual, mechanical flight controls. I'm also really surprised that a skilled pilot like that would stall. It makes me wonder if the engine had a catastrophic failure that damaged the control links to the rudder/elevator. The Tudor should feel about like a Cessna when it stalls, so I have to believe that there was damage. I just can't imagine the pilot losing it like that.

Canada should ground the Tudors and be first in line for the new Boeing T-7. After equipping their training squadrons, they should then put that jet in the hands of the Snowbirds. Not only would they be safer, but they could do things in their show that the Tudor never dreamed of doing.


The RCAF uses the BAE Hawk for training. I believe the Tudor is only used by the Snowbirds right now.
It might be an idea to switch to the Hawk for the Snowbirds as well. That said, it's not like other airforces haven't had their share of fatal accidents with their display teams.
The seat on the Tudor is a zero-sixty seat (0 feet altitude, 60 knots airspeed) the Tudor stalls at 71 knots according to the internet so they had altitude and over 60 knots up until the stall. I wonder if the sink rate when they ejected at isn't what caused the fatality. Even a zero-zero ejection seat won't help you if you eject at a low altitude with a high enough sink rate. I'd guess that at that altitude as soon as enough airspeed was lost there was no saving the plane without the engine running, especially in a jet that takes time to spool up to full power. Why let it stall and start spinning before ejecting? Maybe the pilot was trying to get to a point where the plane was less likely to end up crashing in a built-up area?

Re: Snowbirds Crash [Re: pilottravis] #5434632 05/20/20 09:23 PM
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I'm sure after watching the video several times, that was the case.

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