Recent Topics
2017 Toyota Sienna AWD
by 92saturnsl2 - 06/06/20 09:33 AM
Wix 57045
by electricmarquis - 06/06/20 08:42 AM
VW GTI
by greenjp - 06/06/20 08:25 AM
Mower Engine Got Drenched With Oil
by viscous - 06/06/20 08:19 AM
Mobil 1 versus Motul for a 2020 Camry 0w16
by Amkeer - 06/06/20 05:52 AM
Slowest lap ever...but legal...
by Shannow - 06/06/20 05:15 AM
Another SCORE !!!
by GMguy84 - 06/06/20 02:24 AM
Is it just me...
by daves87rs - 06/06/20 01:26 AM
Total Repair Costs over 200,000 miles
by Palut - 06/06/20 12:08 AM
Vredestein will start making American-market specific tires
by slacktide_bitog - 06/05/20 11:33 PM
Fried plantain question
by aquariuscsm - 06/05/20 11:08 PM
Castrol Edge LL IV 0w20, not majority PAO
by wemay - 06/05/20 09:08 PM
Fram Titanium 20k mile oil filters at AAP....
by bbhero - 06/05/20 09:04 PM
D-Day 🇺🇸
by kstanf150 - 06/05/20 08:57 PM
Husqvarna 5.2 ounce 2 stroke oil .39 ymmv
by maintenanceMan - 06/05/20 08:53 PM
Mobil 1 Permazone
by maverickfhs - 06/05/20 07:47 PM
2 stroke oil
by opus - 06/05/20 06:19 PM
McKinney Falls State Park - Austin, TX
by wwillson - 06/05/20 05:22 PM
Newest Members
viscous, Roamingtxn, 3Dperf, LouK2, Michael328i
71618 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
96 registered members (2015_PSD, 4WD, 830Lee, 94astro, 92saturnsl2, 2004tdigls, 5 invisible), 2,126 guests, and 93 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics306,283
Posts5,289,596
Members71,618
Most Online4,538
Jan 20th, 2020
Donate to BITOG
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
Hey Astro 14 Whats Your Take On This Fighter Plan Comparison? #5429896 05/15/20 01:15 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 891
Driz Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 891
This is a question on Quora concerning which plane is best in a scrap. From the credentials id say he knows his do do.






Rick Scheff, flies fast jets, drives fast cars, drinks expensive whiskey
Answered July 8, 2019 · Upvoted by Adrian Kruger, Qualified pilot with a PPL, student of all things Aviation. and Paul Tomblin, Licensed private pilot. PP-ASEL-IA with high performance and complex endorsements.
I saw this question and it made me laugh. I considered answering it but decided it was too silly. Then I got asked to answer and I try not to turn down flying related asks, so here we are.

The simple answer is no. Not only is the Raptor not less maneuverable than a Strike Eagle, there’s really no comparison. It’s common to refer to the Strike Eagle as the B-15 to differentiate it from the F-15C. B is for bomber because that’s what that airplane is.

I fly the F-16. I’m stationed at Shaw AFB in South Carolina, which is also the headquarters of Ninth Air Force - Wikipedia. If you look at who they own you’ll notice that it includes the 1st Fighter Wing - Wikipedia, the 325th Fighter Wing - Wikipedia, and the 4th Fighter Wing - Wikipedia. The upshot of that is that I get to fly with and against both F-22s and F-15Es on a regular basis.

Before we get into why, lets look at pictures of the airplanes in question:

First up we have the F-22. The world’s premier air dominance fighter. It lives air to air, it breathes air to air, and for those glorious several minutes until it runs out of gas and goes home it is the undisputed champion:


Secondly, we have the F-15E. It has a lot of gas, a lot of weapons, a lot of people, a lot of drag, and mostly does air to ground missions. It can do air to air in the same sense than an olympic decathlete can run a 1500. It’ll get done, but it won’t be pretty:


For comparison this is what I’m flying when I’m playing with them. I include this for context and because I find I get more upvotes when I include pictures of me flying:


Yes, that’s actually me. Note the SW (Shaw) tail flash and the stripes. Tiger Tiger.

At high speed and well above the floor a Raptor and a block 50 Viper are basically the same. With sufficient energy, the limiting factor is the airframe G limit, which is 9G for both. Both airplanes will easily sustain 9G in a descending fight. The catch is that at the floor or at low speed the Raptor has both way more power and vectored thrust so it beats even the block 50 Viper.

The Strike Eagle, by contrast, is lucky to get any noticeable G at all, even momentarily. If you look back at the picture you’ll notice the conformal fuel tanks. Trying to maneuver with those on is like trying to run in ski boots. For long air to ground missions they’re nice. For high G fighting they’re crippling.

This is borne out nicely, because we often support both the F-15E and F-22 basic courses, and a popular way we support them is being the bad guy for ACM (2v1) fighting. There are two of them vs one of us, but in exchange we usually get to start behind them, so they have a problem to solve.

When fighting the Raptors, it’s usually everything I can do to stay alive. I use full afterburner, I’m on the limiter, it’s exhausting, and they still usually get me. If nothing else they can drive me to the floor and just win by physics. Especially if I’m fighting the instructor pilot it’s a matter of time. The Strike Eagle, by contrast, is very easy to fight. When we fight them we don’t use afterburner at all and it’s still trivial. If I wanted to I could win every 2v1 in a matter of seconds because their jet just can’t point at me. I get to start behind them and they have no way to get me away from there.

When we coordinate the day before the Raptor instructors usually say something along the lines of “Do whatever you want. I’d like to see your best shot and we’ll figure it out.” The Strike Eagle instructors usually say “please don’t use AB, and line up behind me but switch to the student so I can see what he does, and if you end up 1 circle with me just stay neutral so I can see what he does, and don’t call kills, and if you get in a developed fight with the student just let him eventually get to your control zone so we don’t waste gas, and, and, and, ….”

This isn’t to say that one is a better airplane than the other. They do different things. For example the 15E can do this:


That’s more than twice as many bombs as an F-16 can carry. It can also fly approximately 100 times longer than an F-22 without tanking, so it’s way more useful for close air support. Strike Eagle people tell me that the other guy is really useful for working the targeting pods. I hold a deep seated suspicion of airplanes with more than 1 person in them, but it works for them.

In a big and confusing world we need all kinds of airplanes, but don’t be fooled by the impressive payload, loiter time, air to ground lethality, and superficial resemblance to a slightly more capable (but still sub-par) BFM airplane like the F-15C.

The F-15E can’t hold a candle to an F-22 in an up close and personal engagement.

Re: Hey Astro 14 Whats Your Take On This Fighter Plan Comparison? [Re: Driz] #5429911 05/15/20 01:30 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 15,289
C
CT8 Offline
Offline
C
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 15,289
Air Force pilots don't fly real aircraft . Naval Aviators fly real aircraft. Why are we bringing up Air Force? banana

Last edited by CT8; 05/15/20 01:37 PM.

2015 F150 2.7
2018 F350 6.2
Re: Hey Astro 14 Whats Your Take On This Fighter Plan Comparison? [Re: CT8] #5429956 05/15/20 02:44 PM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,987
F
FlyNavyP3 Offline
Offline
F
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,987
Originally Posted by CT8
Air Force pilots don't fly real aircraft . Naval Aviators fly real aircraft. Why are we bringing up Air Force? banana


Those are fighting words. I'm obviously biased though.


Luke
P-3C and P-8A Maritime Weapons and Tactics Instructor, Instructor Tactical Coordinator and Mission Commander
Re: Hey Astro 14 Whats Your Take On This Fighter Plan Comparison? [Re: Driz] #5429963 05/15/20 02:51 PM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 15,339
53' Stude Offline
Offline
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 15,339
FlyNavyP3 is correct. Stepdad always said “easier to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission”

Re: Hey Astro 14 Whats Your Take On This Fighter Plan Comparison? [Re: Driz] #5429990 05/15/20 03:18 PM
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 428
ABN_CBT_ENGR Offline
Offline
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 428
Children and their toys

Regardless of how shiny the things are and how they go "vroom"..

The war aint over till the INFANTRY says it is

Re: Hey Astro 14 Whats Your Take On This Fighter Plan Comparison? [Re: Driz] #5430007 05/15/20 03:43 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,324
ArrestMeRedZ Offline
Offline
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,324
Judging from the last few conflicts it's not over even then....

Re: Hey Astro 14 Whats Your Take On This Fighter Plan Comparison? [Re: Driz] #5430013 05/15/20 03:50 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 10,982
Astro14 Online Content
Online Content
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 10,982
First, the infantry wins wars.

No argument. It’s basically true what grunts say: No one ever surrendered to an airplane, but empires have surrendered because of weapons delivered by airplane....so let’s keep things in perspective.

One important perspective; without air superiority, infantry dies. Ask the Iraqi Republican Guard how it felt to have US air superiority in January, 1991.

As far as fighter comparison, I think the F-16 guy sums it up well.

The F-22 is nearly unbeatable in a fair fight. Full up, you can’t see it on radar, so the fight isn’t, and won’t ever be, fair. In a visual engagement, the F-22 is still nearly unbeatable.

I disagree with his “low on gas” characterization. The airplane with the shortest legs (range and/or endurance) in the US inventory is the F-16. Hands down. They run out of gas, quickly, unless they’re loaded up with tanks, in which case, they can’t turn.

The F-15E is the best multi role airplane ever built. Long legs, big payload, lots of speed, but it’s jack of all trades while the F-22 is master of one: air to air.

I used to beat up F-15E with an F-14A every time I fought them. Great fun. In the visual arena, the F-15E is a dog. Lots of thrust, but a very high wing loading compromises turning ability. It can fight all day long with it’s huge internal fuel capacity, but it can’t fight well. My impression on F-15E guys is that they spend a lot of time training on the air-ground mission. They’re really good at it. Which means they don’t spend much time on BFM (dogfighting).

Hope this answers the question. Always interesting to hear what other pilots think.

Cheers,
Astro


32 Packard 15W40
01 Volvo V70 T5 0W30 AMSOIL SS
02 Volvo V70 T5 0W30 Edge
02 Volvo V70 XC 0W40 Edge
05 MB S600 0W40 M1
16 Tundra 1794 5W30 Pennzoil Ultra
Re: Hey Astro 14 Whats Your Take On This Fighter Plan Comparison? [Re: Driz] #5430020 05/15/20 04:06 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 15,289
C
CT8 Offline
Offline
C
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 15,289
I lived for 17 years next door to a Naval Aviator that retired as a major Airline Captain ,,, I know the truth. thankyou I have to keep up what was pounded into my head.


2015 F150 2.7
2018 F350 6.2
Re: Hey Astro 14 Whats Your Take On This Fighter Plan Comparison? [Re: Astro14] #5430030 05/15/20 04:27 PM
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 428
ABN_CBT_ENGR Offline
Offline
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 428
Originally Posted by Astro14
First, the infantry wins wars.

No argument. It’s basically true what grunts say: No one ever surrendered to an airplane, but empires have surrendered because of weapons delivered by airplane....so let’s keep things in perspective.

One important perspective; without air superiority, infantry dies. Ask the Iraqi Republican Guard how it felt to have US air superiority in January, 1991.

Astro


I don't need to ask the RG, I was one of the ones laying [email protected] and d--------ation upon them so I saw it first hand. Their inability to readily answer was very acceptable.

You wouldn't be making an indirect reference to an ARMY "weapon" delivered by the ARMY air corps would you? Even then it was a combination of Russia invading and the progress of operation Downfall sailing en route along with those weapons that brought about surrender. (just keeping in perspective)

And a 97 lb private can tote enough firepower to make all but the high altitude types have a very short day to so we are not totally defenseless.

Don't get me wrong, its deeply comforting to know you guys are up there and you certainly made my and others life easier (and probably longer) at a few FOB's and I love you all for it - no question about it

Re: Hey Astro 14 Whats Your Take On This Fighter Plan Comparison? [Re: Driz] #5430057 05/15/20 05:06 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,361
I
IndyFan Offline
Offline
I
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,361
Lol, OP makes it sound like the F-16 has lots of gas. The F-22's range, on paper anyway, smokes the F-16. Add supercruise to the mix and outside of a closed range, such as the real world, the F-22 simply has every advantage. Not dogging the F-16, but unless tanked up, it can't go very far.

I'd imagine it is pretty frustrating for anyone taking on an F-22 in any situation, including a visual fight, but when you untie the one arm (stealth) from behind thier backs, you probably just fly around wondering where they are until you are pronounced dead.

Now let's be fair. The F-16 is a 1970's fighter being compared to an F-22. I'd love to see a new Gen IV light, small fighter with a similar vision as the F-16 was. That would be an interesting machine, wouldn't it?

Last edited by IndyFan; 05/15/20 05:10 PM.

18 Jeep JLUR Wrangler 3.6 31k
15 Ford Transit 129k, Reman 3.5 @85k
17 Jeep Renegade 2.4 29k
08 Jeep Wrangler 3.8 141k
04 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.7 111k
99 Mercedes E430 Sport 90k
Re: Hey Astro 14 Whats Your Take On This Fighter Plan Comparison? [Re: Driz] #5430168 05/15/20 07:19 PM
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 547
IMSA_Racing_Fan Offline
Offline
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 547
Considering the F-15 is a design which began in 1967, first flew in 1973, and began operational service in 1976, it is inarguably the finest fighter ever designed. My father was a department manager for McDonnell Douglas on the F-15 and DC-10 projects, every time I see an Eagle I think of him.

Re: Hey Astro 14 Whats Your Take On This Fighter Plan Comparison? [Re: Driz] #5430215 05/15/20 08:23 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 15,289
C
CT8 Offline
Offline
C
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 15,289
The Air national guard did a fly over today for the unmentionable with 2 F15s and 2 A 10s.. I enjoy seeing them as the occasionally have a flight path over the house. The mil pilots are really good.


2015 F150 2.7
2018 F350 6.2
Re: Hey Astro 14 Whats Your Take On This Fighter Plan Comparison? [Re: Driz] #5430236 05/15/20 08:45 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,361
I
IndyFan Offline
Offline
I
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,361
Truth be told, I love all these airplanes. I'd bet, though, that the F-16 has just the best seating position and visibility of all of them. I'd imagine it just feels a part of you. Man, what I'd give to fly one. But I'm 6'5" tall and there's no way. I've tried to get into the cockpit display at The National Museum of the United States Air Force and there's just no way.

Last edited by IndyFan; 05/15/20 08:46 PM.

18 Jeep JLUR Wrangler 3.6 31k
15 Ford Transit 129k, Reman 3.5 @85k
17 Jeep Renegade 2.4 29k
08 Jeep Wrangler 3.8 141k
04 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.7 111k
99 Mercedes E430 Sport 90k
Re: Hey Astro 14 Whats Your Take On This Fighter Plan Comparison? [Re: Driz] #5430268 05/15/20 09:13 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 23,698
Z
ZeeOSix Offline
Offline
Z
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 23,698
F-22 ... FTW.

Re: Hey Astro 14 Whats Your Take On This Fighter Plan Comparison? [Re: Driz] #5430306 05/15/20 10:45 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 175
AdmdeVilleneuve Offline
Offline
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 175
An Oregon ANG F-15C made an emergency landing at PDX 15 months ago. That aircraft was manufactured in 1978; 42 years old this year and still in frontline service guarding the PNW. By the time (assuming) the F-15X makes it into the USAF inventory, the author probably will have moved on to another assignment, but whoever is flying his current F-16C will have a tougher time against an F-15X instead of the B-15E.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...iants-and-no-it-wont-cost-100m-per-copy/

Imagine how much of a workout the USAF folks at Shaw would get had the USN moved forward with the proposed Super Tomcat 21, and then allowed a squadron to swing by South Carolina to do some ACM training. Better yet, imagine a hypothetical Super Tomcat 2010 envisioned by aviation writer Tyler Rogoway in the link below doing that inter-service exercise. Or, appearing in Top Gun: Maverick (aka Top Gun 2)...
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-tomcat-would-have-actually-looked-like/

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread

BOB IS THE OIL GUY® Powered by UBB.threads™