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Harley Davidson Syn3 #5420356 05/03/20 10:25 PM
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RevRider Offline OP
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Good Evening Board,

I was reviewing my HD Catalog, and Harley says their Syn3 oil is a true synthetic, PAO/Ester, and not a "Highly Refined Group III."

I am thinking it must be true, or else this is false advertising?

Thoughts?

RevRider


RevRider
Re: Harley Davidson Syn3 [Re: RevRider] #5420382 05/03/20 11:13 PM
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ZeeOSix Offline
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Yeah, they would be open for false advertising lawsuit if it wasn't true. Doubt Harley wants to put themselves into that position.

Re: Harley Davidson Syn3 [Re: RevRider] #5420388 05/03/20 11:32 PM
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RevRider Offline OP
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ZeeOSix, that's what I would say also. So, from a price point of $12.95/quart for PAO/Ester based oil, as compared to other PAO/Ester products, the HD doesn't really seem overpriced to me.


RevRider
Re: Harley Davidson Syn3 [Re: RevRider] #5420460 05/04/20 03:30 AM
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HD Syn 3 used to be a blend and made by CITGO. I used in a pinch back when I owned my 08 FLHR. I'm sure it's quality oil since many riders use in the "3" holes and have rode many miles with no issues.


2020 Subaru Forester Premium 2.5L AWD CVT
2012 Toyota Tacoma 2.7L 5-Speed Manual 4WD
2016 Harley-Davidson FLHTK Ultra LImited
Re: Harley Davidson Syn3 [Re: RevRider] #5420676 05/04/20 10:43 AM
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Urshurak776 Offline
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I still use Havoline 20W-50 from the stash. 10 years now. No issues. Sporty runs like a top, year after year.

Nothing wrong with Syn3 except the price. My .02.


2012 Hyundai Santa Fe, 153,000 miles, Havoline Pro DS Full Syn 5W-20, COS3593A Champion Filter.
2014 Kia Rio, 85,000 miles, Havoline Pro DS Full Syn 5W-30, WIX Filter.
Re: Harley Davidson Syn3 [Re: RevRider] #5420828 05/04/20 01:51 PM
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BusyLittleShop Offline
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Oil Analysis proves that any of the group products will meet or exceed your mileage
expectations because they all strive to deliver pure uniform molecules...

Refining means removing less desirable elements from petroleum until
what’s left is mostly higher-performing molecular structures. Waxy
stuff had to go because it made oil congeal at winter temperatures.
Aromatics had to go because they lost viscosity too rapidly when hot.
Unsaturates had to go because they were vulnerable to heat-driven
gumming and sludging. And so on.

Group I: Petroleum oil containing 10–30 percent aromatics.

Group II: Hydrotreated mineral oils. Hydrotreating removes compounds
of oxygen, nitrogen, sulfur, chlorine, and metals.

Group III: Severely hydrocracked oils, the extensively reformed
"synthesized hydrocarbon oils" of today. Hydrocracking converts heavy
oils into lighter fractions by saturation, breaking large molecules
into smaller ones and creating from the fragments desired isomers.
Single-pass isomerization can boost the Viscosity Index (VI) of a
Group III base stock by 30 percent. VI indicates the rate at which an
oil's viscosity decreases as temperature increases in roughly the
range between cold and hot engine temperatures. The higher the number,
the better the oil covers the range of temperatures.

Group IV: The dominant automotive synthetic today is PAO
(Polyalphaolefin) + AN (Alkylated Naphthalene) + diesters, as found in
synthetic engine oils like Mobil 1. PAO delivers exceptional VI and
low pour point, while its tendency to shrink seals are corrected by
added AN and diesters. The PAO itself is synthesized by polymerizing
simple gas molecules derived from natural gas, and then connecting
these short hydrocarbon chains to form comb like structures.

Group V: Esters, polyglycols, silicones, neopentyl polyol esters, and
others, which are synthetic or chemically engineered oils not falling
into previous groups. Many are familiar to bike racers of the 1970s
through 1990s because they have been the basis of two-stroke racing
oils. Some of these oils can have higher VI, oxidation resistance, and
resistance to thermal breakdown than do PAO-based synthetics. R&D
never ceases in the chemical industry.


[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Larry L
Have a Wheelie NICE day
94 RC45 #2 58,000 on 30 Grade, Currently Mobil 1 5W30 SN
2002 Camaro Mobil 1 5W30
1952 De Havilland Chipmunk



Re: Harley Davidson Syn3 [Re: BusyLittleShop] #5420898 05/04/20 03:28 PM
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ZeeOSix Offline
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^^^
"Group IV: The dominant automotive synthetic today is PAO
(Polyalphaolefin) + AN (Alkylated Naphthalene) + diesters, as found in
synthetic engine oils like Mobil 1."


How old is that information? I don't think many automotive synthetics are using Group IV these days compared to some years ago.

Re: Harley Davidson Syn3 [Re: ZeeOSix] #5421025 05/04/20 05:39 PM
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Bonz Offline
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I'd agree with that, pretty much any brand synthetic you find on the shelf at Walmart or auto store is a group III. Simply highly refined conventional oil from the same hole in the ground. I think that has been said over and over on BITOG, but color me stupid, maybe I don't know a thing.

Group IV oils must be fully made from ethylene, they do not come from any oil as we know it that comes from the ground. With that said, does it have to be a 100% group IV or can there be a small group IV component and it gets considered a group IV and covers their butt?



Re: Harley Davidson Syn3 [Re: RevRider] #5421042 05/04/20 06:04 PM
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Jarlaxle Offline
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I run Syn3 in my Sporty...as hot as it runs (air cooled, and I've seen 280 degree oil), it probably helps.


1979 Coupe de Ville, 542 stroker, Delo 15W-40, Delco filter
2013 Challenger SRT8 Core, Mobil 1 0W-40, Mopar
2011 Sportster 883, parked for winter SYN3 20W-50, HD black
Re: Harley Davidson Syn3 [Re: RevRider] #5421238 05/04/20 10:06 PM
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CPA1989 Offline
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Originally Posted by RevRider
Good Evening Board,

I was reviewing my HD Catalog, and Harley says their Syn3 oil is a true synthetic, PAO/Ester, and not a "Highly Refined Group III."

I am thinking it must be true, or else this is false advertising?

Thoughts?

RevRider


Couldn't find the actual MSDS for the life of me, but I found this in an HD forum (https://www.hdforums.com/forum/oil-and-oil-related-topics/1181701-syn-3-in-all-3-not-a-fan-3.html)

Looks like it's 50%-70% Group IV. Again, second hand source, so reliability may be suspect.


2020 Honda Civic Hatchback Sport 1.5T
2017 Ford Escape Titanium 1.5T
Re: Harley Davidson Syn3 [Re: RevRider] #5421242 05/04/20 10:07 PM
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RevRider Offline OP
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Thank you for the responses.

I do believe, from the research I've done, and willing to stand corrected if other information is presented, that just about all auto oils claiming synthetic are really just Group III. Some of the boutique oils use PAO, and I think only M1 uses PAO in a couple of their products; Annual Change and Extended Performance.


RevRider
Re: Harley Davidson Syn3 [Re: RevRider] #5421283 05/05/20 12:03 AM
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Bonz Offline
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Mobil 1 MC specific oils are speculated to have something more/better than group III synthetic simply because they rarely shear out of grade and shift quality stays consistent in a shared sump. My experience with both of them for 5000 miles each confirms this. One peculiar characteristic of the 20w50 Vtwin oil in air-cooled twins is to thicken on longer oci's as shown on at least a few reports on this forum

For the money, Mobil 1 MC specific oils at $10 a quart that go 5000 miles and do not lose shift quality get the nod. YMMV.

Re: Harley Davidson Syn3 [Re: RevRider] #5421497 05/05/20 10:04 AM
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alarmguy Offline
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Originally Posted by RevRider
Good Evening Board,

I was reviewing my HD Catalog, and Harley says their Syn3 oil is a true synthetic, PAO/Ester, and not a "Highly Refined Group III."

I am thinking it must be true, or else this is false advertising?

Thoughts?

RevRider


Wow, great post, I had no idea. Not a bad price then.
Yes, its true and very very few oils are PAO/Ester true synthetic. Most are made of oil, other then price, not sure if it matters as far as wear.
Great post.

Last edited by alarmguy; 05/05/20 10:07 AM.

14 Road King (current)
08 VStar 1300 Tourer
07 Suzuki C50
Re: Harley Davidson Syn3 [Re: RevRider] #5422027 05/05/20 08:27 PM
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Good Evening Alarmguy,

When I consider the PAO/Ester options I am thinking for motorcycles they are:

1. Red Line
2. Spectro
3. Maxim
4. Torco
5. Bel Ray

Perhaps a few more.

I believe all of them are more expensive than Harley's Syn3. I'm not drinking the Harley cool-aid, but their price for a real, true, synthetic oil is decent.

I've been using Valvoline in my 2014 Road King, does a good job, I've posted my UOA's, but I am really thinking about going back to using HD's oil since it is really a legit Group IV/V oil.

Out of principle, it ticks me off that Group III oils are classified as synthetic. I don't doubt they are good products, will do a good job, but they are not what they purport to be, all sanctioned by legal twistings - thank you British Petroleum/Castro.


horse

Just one oilhead's opinion.

RevRider


RevRider
Re: Harley Davidson Syn3 [Re: RevRider] #5422172 05/05/20 11:20 PM
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BusyLittleShop Offline
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At the end of the 1990s, Mobil asked that Castrol be required to stop
calling its petroleum-originated engineered oil “synthetic.” Castrol
argued that the term synthetic could perfectly well describe oil
molecules whose shape had been fundamentally altered by chemical
engineering. In a 1999 decision by the Better Business Bureau’s
national advertising department, chemically engineered and reshaped
petroleum-based oils can be called synthetic. This is because what is
important is that, in both cases, desirable, higher-performing
structures have been created, not just separated out of petroleum as
cream is separated from milk.


Larry L
Have a Wheelie NICE day
94 RC45 #2 58,000 on 30 Grade, Currently Mobil 1 5W30 SN
2002 Camaro Mobil 1 5W30
1952 De Havilland Chipmunk



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