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Has anyone used EnviroSafe refrigerant? #5420274 05/03/20 08:34 PM
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jqgz Offline OP
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https://www.es-refrigerants.com/

Proclaims to be environmentally friendly, blow cooler air, and uses 1/2 as much refrigerant. Curious if anyone has used this before.

Re: Has anyone used EnviroSafe refrigerant? [Re: jqgz] #5420285 05/03/20 08:50 PM
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ctechbob Offline
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Used it my Miata many years ago. It is essentially a Butane/Propane mix, so if you're good with that in your system, it works.


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Re: Has anyone used EnviroSafe refrigerant? [Re: jqgz] #5420292 05/03/20 08:55 PM
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Yes I have used it, and it worked fine for me. Still have one can left over with the dye.


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Re: Has anyone used EnviroSafe refrigerant? [Re: jqgz] #5420295 05/03/20 08:59 PM
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I use the equivilent up here called Duracool. Been using it for years and never had a problem with it. It operates at lower pressures so is easier on the compressor.


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Re: Has anyone used EnviroSafe refrigerant? [Re: jqgz] #5420298 05/03/20 09:04 PM
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It's not a legal substitute in the USA.


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Re: Has anyone used EnviroSafe refrigerant? [Re: jqgz] #5420306 05/03/20 09:10 PM
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Avery4 Offline
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I'm using their Industrial 134A Replacement in my 05 Civic's AC system and it works well, the head pressure runs significantly lower so its easier on the system and more efficient, the compressor creates less drag on the engine. Also, if I need to make a repair to the system in the future, I can release the refrigerant into the atmosphere instead of having to pay a shop to recover it since it's just propane and butane.

The downsides is that it is a zeotropic refrigerant. That it may fractionate, meaning that the propane will leave the system at a higher rate than the butane and upset the blend if there is a leak, so be sure to slowly charge with the can upside down, it won't fractionate if you charge as a liquid. The second and most significant downside is that it is flammable and therefore may be illegal in your state, so check your laws to make sure its legal if you want to use it.

Re: Has anyone used EnviroSafe refrigerant? [Re: Chris142] #5420309 05/03/20 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris142
It's not a legal substitute in the USA.

It is illegal to use in an R12 system because it is flammable, that's why they don't sell it as "R12A" anymore. There are no federal laws prohibiting replacing R134A with a flammable refrigerant, if there were they wouldn't be allowed to sell it in this country. However, certain states have laws that prohibit the use of flammable refrigerant in motor vehicle AC systems.

Last edited by Avery4; 05/03/20 09:15 PM.
Re: Has anyone used EnviroSafe refrigerant? [Re: Avery4] #5420319 05/03/20 09:28 PM
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spasm3 Offline
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Originally Posted by Avery4
Originally Posted by Chris142
It's not a legal substitute in the USA.

It is illegal to use in an R12 system because it is flammable, that's why they don't sell it as "R12A" anymore. There are no federal laws prohibiting replacing R134A with a flammable refrigerant, if there were they wouldn't be allowed to sell it in this country. However, certain states have laws that prohibit the use of flammable refrigerant in motor vehicle AC systems.


How about an r-12 system converted to r-134a? grin2


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Re: Has anyone used EnviroSafe refrigerant? [Re: jqgz] #5420324 05/03/20 09:32 PM
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Make my own...seriously, I do.

The HCs are a better refrigerant, and were "banned" in a case remarkably similar to the banning of hemp...that's changing, and you can see it in the efficiency ratings of mini fridges which have jumped with HC refrigerants.

It made "snow" in a mate's Landrover when I gassed it up with HC...


If it's the truth....it can handle the pressure !!!
Re: Has anyone used EnviroSafe refrigerant? [Re: spasm3] #5420330 05/03/20 09:52 PM
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Saabist Offline
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Originally Posted by spasm3

How about an r-12 system converted to r-134a? grin2

That's the federal loophole. Illegal to install directly into an R12 system - legal if it has been converted first to R134a. Doesn't make sense, but that's bureaucrats for you.

Some states however have their own laws restricting the use of hydrocarbon refrigerants. Another consideration is no repair shop will want to touch your AC system if you load it up with an alternative refrigerant. So you're hosed if you decide at some point you don't want to work on it yourself.

Last edited by Saabist; 05/03/20 09:53 PM.
Re: Has anyone used EnviroSafe refrigerant? [Re: spasm3] #5420333 05/03/20 09:56 PM
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Kestas Offline
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Originally Posted by spasm3
Originally Posted by Avery4
It is illegal to use in an R12 system because it is flammable, that's why they don't sell it as "R12A" anymore. There are no federal laws prohibiting replacing R134A with a flammable refrigerant, if there were they wouldn't be allowed to sell it in this country. However, certain states have laws that prohibit the use of flammable refrigerant in motor vehicle AC systems.


How about an r-12 system converted to r-134a? grin2

As I understand it, if an r12 system has been converted to r134a, it is perfecly legal to use a propane-butane charge.

Re: Has anyone used EnviroSafe refrigerant? [Re: spasm3] #5420334 05/03/20 09:57 PM
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Avery4 Offline
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Originally Posted by spasm3
Originally Posted by Avery4
Originally Posted by Chris142
It's not a legal substitute in the USA.

It is illegal to use in an R12 system because it is flammable, that's why they don't sell it as "R12A" anymore. There are no federal laws prohibiting replacing R134A with a flammable refrigerant, if there were they wouldn't be allowed to sell it in this country. However, certain states have laws that prohibit the use of flammable refrigerant in motor vehicle AC systems.


How about an r-12 system converted to r-134a? grin2

Simply installing R134A fittings isn't enough to make it legal, installing 134A fittings and then filling with a flammable refrigerant would be considered a "sham retrofit". Technically for the conversion to be legal the oil would need to be changed to 134A compatible oil such as PAG or ester and the system would need to be charged with 134A after it is converted and then recovered and recharged with Envirosafe refrigerant.

Last edited by Avery4; 05/03/20 10:05 PM.
Re: Has anyone used EnviroSafe refrigerant? [Re: jqgz] #5420357 05/03/20 10:27 PM
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I've used it before, not the Envirosafe brand but Duracool and Emzone. Envirosafe or any R12a or 12a refrigerant is a hydrocarbon mix of propane and isobutane that can be used in place of the banned R12 (that destroys the ozone layer) or the current R134a. It's very popular here in Canada because the way the laws are written regarding R134a mean that only people in the industry can have access to R134a at a reasonable cost. In the US anybody can go into Walmart and get a can or two of R134 for 6 bucks each so there's not much of a market for R12a. R12a is not illegal in the US as a whole, it's legal in most states but several states don't allow it because of the flammability concerns. In reality it's quite safe, hydrocarbon refrigerants are used all over the world and not just in cars. A typical car will take about a small 6oz charge of R12a which while it is more flammable than R134a, it's sealed in a system in the engine compartment and in reality even R134a will burn with enough heat and pressure. Also if you're worried about the fire hazard of a few ounces of hydrocarbon gas then you probably should be extremely worried about the many gallons of hydrocarbons you have in the gas tank.

Re: Has anyone used EnviroSafe refrigerant? [Re: Chris142] #5420361 05/03/20 10:29 PM
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Maybe in California. You can buy this stuff all day. I've used it mainly on systems that haven't bee. Converted to r134a.

Re: Has anyone used EnviroSafe refrigerant? [Re: Jake_J] #5420368 05/03/20 10:45 PM
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Avery4 Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake_J
I've used it before, not the Envirosafe brand but Duracool and Emzone. Envirosafe or any R12a or 12a refrigerant is a hydrocarbon mix of propane and isobutane that can be used in place of the banned R12 (that destroys the ozone layer) or the current R134a. It's very popular here in Canada because the way the laws are written regarding R134a mean that only people in the industry can have access to R134a at a reasonable cost. In the US anybody can go into Walmart and get a can or two of R134 for 6 bucks each so there's not much of a market for R12a. R12a is not illegal in the US as a whole, it's legal in most states but several states don't allow it because of the flammability concerns. In reality it's quite safe, hydrocarbon refrigerants are used all over the world and not just in cars. A typical car will take about a small 6oz charge of R12a which while it is more flammable than R134a, it's sealed in a system in the engine compartment and in reality even R134a will burn with enough heat and pressure. Also if you're worried about the fire hazard of a few ounces of hydrocarbon gas then you probably should be extremely worried about the many gallons of hydrocarbons you have in the gas tank.

First, R12A is not legal here in the US and companies have been required to stop selling it. EPA regulations prohibit replacing ozone depleting refrigerants with flammable refrigerants, but the EPA doesn't prohibit the use of flammable refrigerants in motor vehicle AC systems designed for 134A. This is why R12A is no longer sold here but flammable R134A replacements are readily available. Both R12A and R134A replacements are typically a 60/40 blend of propane and isobutane respectively.

Second, 6 ounces of flammable gas is more than enough to blow a car up if the evaporator dumps the entire charge into the cabin of the vehicle and it is ignited by a spark, although the odds of this happening are quite low. Also, comparing the fuel in a vehicle's tank to the refrigerant in the AC system is not a good comparison since the fuel tank and lines are well protected from collision damage, not right in front of the vehicle like the condenser is. Also, the fuel doesn't run through the interior of the vehicle like the refrigerant does. The condenser is quite likely to be damaged in a minor front end collision since it is right in front of the vehicle and this could release refrigerant and cause a fire, although the occupants in the vehicle probably aren't likely to be burned to death since they are behind the firewall.

Not that I am saying people shouldn't use flammable refrigerants if they want to, I am just informing people of the risks and benefits so they can make an informed decision on what refrigerant they want to use.

Last edited by Avery4; 05/03/20 10:48 PM.
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