Which gasoline has PEA?
- Thread starter Luftmasse
- Start date
Whether this is accurate or still correct I do not know but:
https://cen.acs.org/articles/87/i14/Gasoline-Wars.html
Quote
Hardier polybutene amine detergents arrived in the early 1970s. In 1980, Chevron patented a next-generation cleaning approach based on polyether amines (PEAs). Even though the patent has since run out, Peter Fuentes-Afflick, a senior scientist at Chevron's research center in Richmond, Calif., says no other major gasoline marketer uses PEAs.
Perhaps you could contact them and find out.
https://cen.acs.org/articles/87/i14/Gasoline-Wars.html
Quote
Hardier polybutene amine detergents arrived in the early 1970s. In 1980, Chevron patented a next-generation cleaning approach based on polyether amines (PEAs). Even though the patent has since run out, Peter Fuentes-Afflick, a senior scientist at Chevron's research center in Richmond, Calif., says no other major gasoline marketer uses PEAs.
Perhaps you could contact them and find out.
Here you go... https://www.techron.com/
Originally Posted by painfx
Besides Chevron, which other gas stations uses PEA?
No way of knowing really. All the requirements (EPA minimum and Top Tier) are really only for efficacy and don't require any particular detergent chemistry.
The primary use of PEA is as a curing agent for epoxies. How Chevron determined that they were suitable as a fuel detergent was probably via trial and error of different chemicals.
http://www.intermediates.basf.com/chemicals/polyurea-coatings/polyetheramines
https://www.huntsman.com/performance_products/a/Products/Amines/Polyetheramines JEFFAMINE_R
Besides Chevron, which other gas stations uses PEA?
No way of knowing really. All the requirements (EPA minimum and Top Tier) are really only for efficacy and don't require any particular detergent chemistry.
The primary use of PEA is as a curing agent for epoxies. How Chevron determined that they were suitable as a fuel detergent was probably via trial and error of different chemicals.
http://www.intermediates.basf.com/chemicals/polyurea-coatings/polyetheramines
https://www.huntsman.com/performance_products/a/Products/Amines/Polyetheramines JEFFAMINE_R
Originally Posted by kschachn
Whether this is accurate or still correct I do not know but:
https://cen.acs.org/articles/87/i14/Gasoline-Wars.html
Quote
Hardier polybutene amine detergents arrived in the early 1970s. In 1980, Chevron patented a next-generation cleaning approach based on polyether amines (PEAs). Even though the patent has since run out, Peter Fuentes-Afflick, a senior scientist at Chevron's research center in Richmond, Calif., says no other major gasoline marketer uses PEAs.
Perhaps you could contact them and find out.
Seems rather iffy to me. You can read assorted research papers and patent applications from Afton, Lubrizol, or BASF. They mention polyether amines in their development of their detergent additives. It's likely that some of the major gasoline sellers buy from the big chemical companies rather than develop themselves. And ironically enough, Chevron sells detergents via their Oronite division.
Whether this is accurate or still correct I do not know but:
https://cen.acs.org/articles/87/i14/Gasoline-Wars.html
Quote
Hardier polybutene amine detergents arrived in the early 1970s. In 1980, Chevron patented a next-generation cleaning approach based on polyether amines (PEAs). Even though the patent has since run out, Peter Fuentes-Afflick, a senior scientist at Chevron's research center in Richmond, Calif., says no other major gasoline marketer uses PEAs.
Perhaps you could contact them and find out.
Seems rather iffy to me. You can read assorted research papers and patent applications from Afton, Lubrizol, or BASF. They mention polyether amines in their development of their detergent additives. It's likely that some of the major gasoline sellers buy from the big chemical companies rather than develop themselves. And ironically enough, Chevron sells detergents via their Oronite division.
Originally Posted by kschachn
Whether this is accurate or still correct I do not know but:
https://cen.acs.org/articles/87/i14/Gasoline-Wars.html
Quote
Hardier polybutene amine detergents arrived in the early 1970s. In 1980, Chevron patented a next-generation cleaning approach based on polyether amines (PEAs). Even though the patent has since run out, Peter Fuentes-Afflick, a senior scientist at Chevron's research center in Richmond, Calif., says no other major gasoline marketer uses PEAs.
Perhaps you could contact them and find out.
Thanks for the website. Most gas either have PBA or lower tier addtive as you listed. But PEA is a better additive. Looks like only Chevron's gasoline has PEA.
Whether this is accurate or still correct I do not know but:
https://cen.acs.org/articles/87/i14/Gasoline-Wars.html
Quote
Hardier polybutene amine detergents arrived in the early 1970s. In 1980, Chevron patented a next-generation cleaning approach based on polyether amines (PEAs). Even though the patent has since run out, Peter Fuentes-Afflick, a senior scientist at Chevron's research center in Richmond, Calif., says no other major gasoline marketer uses PEAs.
Perhaps you could contact them and find out.
Thanks for the website. Most gas either have PBA or lower tier addtive as you listed. But PEA is a better additive. Looks like only Chevron's gasoline has PEA.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.aaa.com/AAA/common/AAR/files/Fuel-Quality-Full-Report.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjUzv3Xk4zpAhW2j3IEHSlyBkkQFjAAegQIARAC&usg=AOvVaw2mTtGmEgJWQ1is7tZVtrje
For those who are interested. Gasoline are from the same source, however, not all fuel additives are created the same.
For those who are interested. Gasoline are from the same source, however, not all fuel additives are created the same.
Originally Posted by painfx
Thanks for the website. Most gas either have PBA or lower tier addtive as you listed. But PEA is a better additive. Looks like only Chevron's gasoline has PEA.
I'm skeptical. There's just way too much evidence that the big names in fuel detergent (other than Chevron) use PEA. They mention it all over their patent applications.
Thanks for the website. Most gas either have PBA or lower tier addtive as you listed. But PEA is a better additive. Looks like only Chevron's gasoline has PEA.
I'm skeptical. There's just way too much evidence that the big names in fuel detergent (other than Chevron) use PEA. They mention it all over their patent applications.
Originally Posted by y_p_w
Originally Posted by painfx
Thanks for the website. Most gas either have PBA or lower tier addtive as you listed. But PEA is a better additive. Looks like only Chevron's gasoline has PEA.
I'm skeptical. There's just way too much evidence that the big names in fuel detergent (other than Chevron) use PEA. They mention it all over their patent applications.
I am here to ask the question. What other gasoline brands have PEA in their gasoline?
Do you know any?
Originally Posted by painfx
Thanks for the website. Most gas either have PBA or lower tier addtive as you listed. But PEA is a better additive. Looks like only Chevron's gasoline has PEA.
I'm skeptical. There's just way too much evidence that the big names in fuel detergent (other than Chevron) use PEA. They mention it all over their patent applications.
I am here to ask the question. What other gasoline brands have PEA in their gasoline?
Do you know any?
Originally Posted by painfx
Originally Posted by y_p_w
Originally Posted by painfx
Thanks for the website. Most gas either have PBA or lower tier addtive as you listed. But PEA is a better additive. Looks like only Chevron's gasoline has PEA.
I'm skeptical. There's just way too much evidence that the big names in fuel detergent (other than Chevron) use PEA. They mention it all over their patent applications.
I am here to ask the question. What other gasoline brands have PEA in their gasoline?
Do you know any?
It's proprietary unless they want to put it out in their marketing materials. But it's well known that several aftermarket additive makes use PEA. Red Line chooses to put it in their list of ingredients in their MSDS even though PEA is generally regarded as safe and could be left out as a "trade secret".
https://gumout.com/our-ingredients/
https://www.redlineoil.com/content/files/tech/RL SI-1 MSDS 12-12.pdf
But if you want to know what's in your pump fuel - that's typically a trade secret. However, I'd be surprised if only Chevron fuels had PEA in the additive package. PEA might not even be used as a detergent.
Originally Posted by y_p_w
Originally Posted by painfx
Thanks for the website. Most gas either have PBA or lower tier addtive as you listed. But PEA is a better additive. Looks like only Chevron's gasoline has PEA.
I'm skeptical. There's just way too much evidence that the big names in fuel detergent (other than Chevron) use PEA. They mention it all over their patent applications.
I am here to ask the question. What other gasoline brands have PEA in their gasoline?
Do you know any?
It's proprietary unless they want to put it out in their marketing materials. But it's well known that several aftermarket additive makes use PEA. Red Line chooses to put it in their list of ingredients in their MSDS even though PEA is generally regarded as safe and could be left out as a "trade secret".
https://gumout.com/our-ingredients/
https://www.redlineoil.com/content/files/tech/RL SI-1 MSDS 12-12.pdf
But if you want to know what's in your pump fuel - that's typically a trade secret. However, I'd be surprised if only Chevron fuels had PEA in the additive package. PEA might not even be used as a detergent.
Originally Posted by painfx
Thanks for the website. Most gas either have PBA or lower tier addtive as you listed. But PEA is a better additive. Looks like only Chevron's gasoline has PEA.
But on the other hand, what evidence is there that Chevron's additive is really better than say, NiTRO+ from Shell or Synergy from ExxonMobil? How would you know PEA is "best"?
Thanks for the website. Most gas either have PBA or lower tier addtive as you listed. But PEA is a better additive. Looks like only Chevron's gasoline has PEA.
But on the other hand, what evidence is there that Chevron's additive is really better than say, NiTRO+ from Shell or Synergy from ExxonMobil? How would you know PEA is "best"?
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by painfx
Thanks for the website. Most gas either have PBA or lower tier addtive as you listed. But PEA is a better additive. Looks like only Chevron's gasoline has PEA.
But on the other hand, what evidence is there that Chevron's additive is really better than say, NiTRO+ from Shell or Synergy from ExxonMobil? How would you know PEA is "best"?
Did you read the article I posted below your reponse?
It states PEA has better cleaning abilities that does not leave behind deposits. Versus the PBA or PIB they calls it.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.aaa.com/AAA/common/AAR/files/Fuel-Quality-Full-Report.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjUzv3Xk4zpAhW2j3IEHSlyBkkQFjAAegQIARAC&usg=AOvVaw2mTtGmEgJWQ1is7tZVtrje
Originally Posted by painfx
Thanks for the website. Most gas either have PBA or lower tier addtive as you listed. But PEA is a better additive. Looks like only Chevron's gasoline has PEA.
But on the other hand, what evidence is there that Chevron's additive is really better than say, NiTRO+ from Shell or Synergy from ExxonMobil? How would you know PEA is "best"?
Did you read the article I posted below your reponse?
It states PEA has better cleaning abilities that does not leave behind deposits. Versus the PBA or PIB they calls it.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.aaa.com/AAA/common/AAR/files/Fuel-Quality-Full-Report.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjUzv3Xk4zpAhW2j3IEHSlyBkkQFjAAegQIARAC&usg=AOvVaw2mTtGmEgJWQ1is7tZVtrje
The article that you cited doesn't really say anything other than Top Tier seems to result in more cleanliness than non Top Tier. It does mention that PEA does well for cleaning combustion chamber deposits but is less effective for other deposits. Simply using PEA isn't the be all and end all. It's possible to just use more of something else. And if another pump fuel additive has PEA, you're not likely to know because other than Chevron nobody else really markets it other than aftermarket additive sellers.
Originally Posted by painfx
Did you read the article I posted below your reponse?
It states PEA has better cleaning abilities that does not leave behind deposits. Versus the PBA or PIB they calls it.
It doesn't say that. It mentions the strength and weaknesses of each kind. It's pretty obvious that to create an effective detergent additive package, it would require a combination of different detergent types. Here's the link for anyone who had difficulties:
https://www.aaa.com/AAA/common/AAR/files/Fuel-Quality-Full-Report.pdf
Quote
Various additives such as metal deactivators, corrosion inhibitors, oxygenates, and anti-oxidants are also included in gasoline. Of specific interest are detergents that reduce or prevent fuel injector and intake valve deposits. Examples include polyether amines and polyisobutylene-based (PIB) compounds such as (PIB)-Mannichs, (PIB)-amines, and (PIB)-succinimides.
The effectiveness of each detergent is different depending on the type of deposit. Polyether amines in general are effective at controlling combustion chamber deposits, but less effective with intake valve and fuel injector deposits. Both PIB-amines and PIB-Mannichs are effective at controlling intake valve deposits and slightly less effective at preventing fuel injector deposits. PIB-succinimides are moderately effective against port fuel injector deposits, but relatively ineffective at controlling intake valve deposits [7].
Whether or not it's got PEA is irrelevant compared to how effective the entire package is.
Did you read the article I posted below your reponse?
It states PEA has better cleaning abilities that does not leave behind deposits. Versus the PBA or PIB they calls it.
It doesn't say that. It mentions the strength and weaknesses of each kind. It's pretty obvious that to create an effective detergent additive package, it would require a combination of different detergent types. Here's the link for anyone who had difficulties:
https://www.aaa.com/AAA/common/AAR/files/Fuel-Quality-Full-Report.pdf
Quote
Various additives such as metal deactivators, corrosion inhibitors, oxygenates, and anti-oxidants are also included in gasoline. Of specific interest are detergents that reduce or prevent fuel injector and intake valve deposits. Examples include polyether amines and polyisobutylene-based (PIB) compounds such as (PIB)-Mannichs, (PIB)-amines, and (PIB)-succinimides.
The effectiveness of each detergent is different depending on the type of deposit. Polyether amines in general are effective at controlling combustion chamber deposits, but less effective with intake valve and fuel injector deposits. Both PIB-amines and PIB-Mannichs are effective at controlling intake valve deposits and slightly less effective at preventing fuel injector deposits. PIB-succinimides are moderately effective against port fuel injector deposits, but relatively ineffective at controlling intake valve deposits [7].
Whether or not it's got PEA is irrelevant compared to how effective the entire package is.
Originally Posted by y_p_w
Whether or not it's got PEA is irrelevant compared to how effective the entire package is.
That is correct. And who knows about the detergent packages I mentioned now in use four years later.
Reading comprehension goes both ways. Sometimes people read what they want to see, not what it says.
Whether or not it's got PEA is irrelevant compared to how effective the entire package is.
That is correct. And who knows about the detergent packages I mentioned now in use four years later.
Reading comprehension goes both ways. Sometimes people read what they want to see, not what it says.
From the internet - PEA additives cleans the most efficient and does not leave behind residue/deposits. This is why it is the best. There is a reason why people want to buy fuel system cleaners with high PEA% amount. I am sure you guys know about the greats about PEA additives.
According to wikipedia, Chevron was the first to introduce PEA additives to their gasoline.
If PEA additive is not the best, what other additive is better than PEA that can clean deposits efficiently and not leave behind residue?
I am not claiming to be an expert. I am also here to learn.
From reading the information on most forums, PEA additive is what people want.
@ y_p_w, you stated PEA is not being used as a detergent. Can you explain?
According to wikipedia, Chevron was the first to introduce PEA additives to their gasoline.
If PEA additive is not the best, what other additive is better than PEA that can clean deposits efficiently and not leave behind residue?
I am not claiming to be an expert. I am also here to learn.
From reading the information on most forums, PEA additive is what people want.
@ y_p_w, you stated PEA is not being used as a detergent. Can you explain?
Originally Posted by painfx
From the internet - PEA additives cleans the most efficient and does not leave behind residue/deposits. This is why it is the best. There is a reason why people want to buy fuel system cleaners with high PEA% amount. I am sure you guys know about the greats about PEA additives.
According to wikipedia, Chevron was the first to introduce PEA additives to their gasoline.
If PEA additive is not the best, what other additive is better than PEA that can clean deposits efficiently and not leave behind residue?
I am not claiming to be an expert. I am also here to learn.
From reading the information on most forums, PEA additive is what people want.
@ y_p_w, you stated PEA is not being used as a detergent. Can you explain?
The primary chemical uses of PEA are for curing plastics and paints. It's a broad category that includes a lot of chemicals that won't be useful as fuel detergents.
Some of the literature on PEA use indicates that some types are in fuel additives for uses other than as a detergent.
And there are certainly PEAs used in additives other than from Chevron. This is from Afton, although it's marketed as an aftermarket fuel treatment and not specifically for pump fuel.
Quote
https://www.aftonchemical.com/SBU/Fuels/Diesel/Sub/Gasoline/HiTEC-6406
Application
HiTEC® 6406 gasoline performance additive is specifically formulated for use as an aftermarket fuel treatment additive to control combustion chamber deposits with exceptional control of fuel injector, PFI, DIG, and intake valve deposits. HiTEC® 6406 is formulated with Afton Chemical's high purity polyetheramine detergent and is compatible in high ethanol fuels.
As for the use of PEA in detergents, here's just one patent by Lubrizol that mentions the use of PEA detergents.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20110162260
What I'm trying to get across might be summed up by the adage "There's more than one way to skin a cat." PEA is very good as a detergent, but I'd worry far more about how well an overall additive package works. There's no particular reason why a detergent additive package has to include PEA to achieve maximum effectiveness. Like many things, it might be possible to simply use more of something else to be equally effective.
From the internet - PEA additives cleans the most efficient and does not leave behind residue/deposits. This is why it is the best. There is a reason why people want to buy fuel system cleaners with high PEA% amount. I am sure you guys know about the greats about PEA additives.
According to wikipedia, Chevron was the first to introduce PEA additives to their gasoline.
If PEA additive is not the best, what other additive is better than PEA that can clean deposits efficiently and not leave behind residue?
I am not claiming to be an expert. I am also here to learn.
From reading the information on most forums, PEA additive is what people want.
@ y_p_w, you stated PEA is not being used as a detergent. Can you explain?
The primary chemical uses of PEA are for curing plastics and paints. It's a broad category that includes a lot of chemicals that won't be useful as fuel detergents.
Some of the literature on PEA use indicates that some types are in fuel additives for uses other than as a detergent.
And there are certainly PEAs used in additives other than from Chevron. This is from Afton, although it's marketed as an aftermarket fuel treatment and not specifically for pump fuel.
Quote
https://www.aftonchemical.com/SBU/Fuels/Diesel/Sub/Gasoline/HiTEC-6406
Application
HiTEC® 6406 gasoline performance additive is specifically formulated for use as an aftermarket fuel treatment additive to control combustion chamber deposits with exceptional control of fuel injector, PFI, DIG, and intake valve deposits. HiTEC® 6406 is formulated with Afton Chemical's high purity polyetheramine detergent and is compatible in high ethanol fuels.
As for the use of PEA in detergents, here's just one patent by Lubrizol that mentions the use of PEA detergents.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20110162260
What I'm trying to get across might be summed up by the adage "There's more than one way to skin a cat." PEA is very good as a detergent, but I'd worry far more about how well an overall additive package works. There's no particular reason why a detergent additive package has to include PEA to achieve maximum effectiveness. Like many things, it might be possible to simply use more of something else to be equally effective.
Originally Posted by y_p_w
Like many things, it might be possible to simply use more of something else to be equally effective.
You are right, they use other additives as well with PEA. However, you stated, using more of something else to be equally effective. What would that be?
Like many things, it might be possible to simply use more of something else to be equally effective.
You are right, they use other additives as well with PEA. However, you stated, using more of something else to be equally effective. What would that be?
Originally Posted by painfx
Originally Posted by y_p_w
Like many things, it might be possible to simply use more of something else to be equally effective.
You are right, they use other additives as well with PEA. However, you stated, using more of something else to be equally effective. What would that be?
The article itself may be oversimplifying saying that X cleans combustion chamber deposits or Y cleans intake valves. The information from several patents indicate that different formations for Mannich reaction detergents clean valves, injectors, and combustion chambers. Here's US Patent #8557003 from Afton Chemical:
Quote
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-....PN.&OS=PN/8557003&RS=PN/8557003
New, highly effective substantially pure Mannich detergents for use in hydrocarbon fuels reduce engine deposits in spark and compression ignition internal combustion engines. The Mannich condensation reaction products are obtainable by reacting: (i) a polyamine having primary amino groups, (ii) a hydrocarbyl-substituted hydroxyaromatic compound, and (iii) an aldehyde, wherein the reaction is conducted at in a molar ratio of (i)
ii)iii) of approximately 1:2:3 or 1:1:2. The Mannich detergent compounds may be dispersed in a liquid carrier to provide a fuel additive concentrate for hydrocarbon engine fuels which effectively control engine deposit formation in intake valves, port fuel injectors and combustion chambers.
The big picture is that the individual chemicals present don't matter as much as how well they work. And even then I'm skeptical of any assertions that only Chevron has a PEA additive in its pump fuel. If (pre Phillips 66) Red Line can use PEA without worry about running into Chevron patents, then I don't see why any fuel marketer couldn't develop their own detergent or buy one from Afton/BASF/Lubrizol that does. But again, the important thing is whether it does the job and not what the particular chemical families are used.
Originally Posted by y_p_w
Like many things, it might be possible to simply use more of something else to be equally effective.
You are right, they use other additives as well with PEA. However, you stated, using more of something else to be equally effective. What would that be?
The article itself may be oversimplifying saying that X cleans combustion chamber deposits or Y cleans intake valves. The information from several patents indicate that different formations for Mannich reaction detergents clean valves, injectors, and combustion chambers. Here's US Patent #8557003 from Afton Chemical:
Quote
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-....PN.&OS=PN/8557003&RS=PN/8557003
New, highly effective substantially pure Mannich detergents for use in hydrocarbon fuels reduce engine deposits in spark and compression ignition internal combustion engines. The Mannich condensation reaction products are obtainable by reacting: (i) a polyamine having primary amino groups, (ii) a hydrocarbyl-substituted hydroxyaromatic compound, and (iii) an aldehyde, wherein the reaction is conducted at in a molar ratio of (i)
ii)iii) of approximately 1:2:3 or 1:1:2. The Mannich detergent compounds may be dispersed in a liquid carrier to provide a fuel additive concentrate for hydrocarbon engine fuels which effectively control engine deposit formation in intake valves, port fuel injectors and combustion chambers.The big picture is that the individual chemicals present don't matter as much as how well they work. And even then I'm skeptical of any assertions that only Chevron has a PEA additive in its pump fuel. If (pre Phillips 66) Red Line can use PEA without worry about running into Chevron patents, then I don't see why any fuel marketer couldn't develop their own detergent or buy one from Afton/BASF/Lubrizol that does. But again, the important thing is whether it does the job and not what the particular chemical families are used.
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