All season compound mean SILICA is used ?
- Thread starter odie
- Start date
Many tires use silica in the tread compound. Not all all-season tires use it however. I imagine the General AS-05's on my wife's Audi have silica as do the Goodyear Exhilarate's on my Elantra Sport.
The Goodyears on my car run circles on the General on my wife's Audi in the wet. I bet the General AS-05's is better in the wet than the General RT43.
The Goodyears on my car run circles on the General on my wife's Audi in the wet. I bet the General AS-05's is better in the wet than the General RT43.
Do not confuse all season with all weather, the latter one uses silica to maintain flexibility in cold weather.
It is my understanding that replacing carbon black with silica results in improved wet traction with little or no change in rolling resistance and treadwear. That means the use of silica can result in improved RR if the tread compound is reformulated - or the same grip and/or treadwear with reduced RR.
And - No! - the use of silica doesn't imply anything other than LRR - given that the term is used to mean improved RR compared to other tires with similar traction and wear characteristics.
Likewise, the terms *All Season*, *All Weather*, All Terrain*, or any other generic descriptor, does not imply the use of silica. Suitable tread compounds can be madder without the use of silica.
- HOWEVER -
OE tires generally use silica because OE tires have RR requirements and it is better to use silica to get better grip and/or treadwear. So you could say the an OE tire generally implies the use of silica.
And - No! - the use of silica doesn't imply anything other than LRR - given that the term is used to mean improved RR compared to other tires with similar traction and wear characteristics.
Likewise, the terms *All Season*, *All Weather*, All Terrain*, or any other generic descriptor, does not imply the use of silica. Suitable tread compounds can be madder without the use of silica.
- HOWEVER -
OE tires generally use silica because OE tires have RR requirements and it is better to use silica to get better grip and/or treadwear. So you could say the an OE tire generally implies the use of silica.
Originally Posted by CapriRacer
OE tires generally use silica because OE tires have RR requirements and it is better to use silica to get better grip and/or treadwear. So you could say the an OE tire generally implies the use of silica.
Would that mean all tires of the same model, or just the specific tires that go to the OEMs?
OE tires generally use silica because OE tires have RR requirements and it is better to use silica to get better grip and/or treadwear. So you could say the an OE tire generally implies the use of silica.
Would that mean all tires of the same model, or just the specific tires that go to the OEMs?
Originally Posted by Pew
Originally Posted by CapriRacer
OE tires generally use silica because OE tires have RR requirements and it is better to use silica to get better grip and/or treadwear. So you could say the an OE tire generally implies the use of silica.
Would that mean all tires of the same model, or just the specific tires that go to the OEMs?
Just the tires that go to the OEM's. - except that some of those tires find their way into the tire dealer's inventory. Here, allow me to explain in more detail.
Car manufacturers issue specs to their parts suppliers - and that includes tires. For tires, there are generally only a handful of tire manufacturers that supply tires to a given manufacturer. Those tire manufacturers have to go through all kinds of scrutiny - in particular quality programs such as TS16949
The specs include just about anything you can think of. The specs are such that the tire will not only NOT be like what a tire manufacturer would design for the replacement market, but also be oriented towards fuel economy (rolling resistance), - and further, the tire specs for a given vehicle will be different that what other vehicles specify - even within the same company!) That is the tires will be so unique that they are almost certainly not like any other tire on the market.
Some tire manufacturers have a particular line of tires (maybe more than one!) that they designate as "OE Only". Some use existing tire lines where they take the size being requested and redesign it to the OEM's specs. And some do both!
There is about a 2 year qualification period, where the tires are tested. In the end, one tire manufacturer is selected to supply a given vehicle platform - and the other tire suppliers don't put their tire into product (because there is no market for it!)
Because the OEM specs include tight balance and uniformity specs, it is common for tires that aren't quite good enough to meet those tight specs, but are otherwise OK, to be sold in the replacement market - that is, tire dealers. We call those "downstream".
A longer version: Barry's Tire Tech: OE Tires
Questions?
Originally Posted by CapriRacer
OE tires generally use silica because OE tires have RR requirements and it is better to use silica to get better grip and/or treadwear. So you could say the an OE tire generally implies the use of silica.
Would that mean all tires of the same model, or just the specific tires that go to the OEMs?
Just the tires that go to the OEM's. - except that some of those tires find their way into the tire dealer's inventory. Here, allow me to explain in more detail.
Car manufacturers issue specs to their parts suppliers - and that includes tires. For tires, there are generally only a handful of tire manufacturers that supply tires to a given manufacturer. Those tire manufacturers have to go through all kinds of scrutiny - in particular quality programs such as TS16949
The specs include just about anything you can think of. The specs are such that the tire will not only NOT be like what a tire manufacturer would design for the replacement market, but also be oriented towards fuel economy (rolling resistance), - and further, the tire specs for a given vehicle will be different that what other vehicles specify - even within the same company!) That is the tires will be so unique that they are almost certainly not like any other tire on the market.
Some tire manufacturers have a particular line of tires (maybe more than one!) that they designate as "OE Only". Some use existing tire lines where they take the size being requested and redesign it to the OEM's specs. And some do both!
There is about a 2 year qualification period, where the tires are tested. In the end, one tire manufacturer is selected to supply a given vehicle platform - and the other tire suppliers don't put their tire into product (because there is no market for it!)
Because the OEM specs include tight balance and uniformity specs, it is common for tires that aren't quite good enough to meet those tight specs, but are otherwise OK, to be sold in the replacement market - that is, tire dealers. We call those "downstream".
A longer version: Barry's Tire Tech: OE Tires
Questions?
Originally Posted by CapriRacer
Originally Posted by Pew
Originally Posted by CapriRacer
OE tires generally use silica because OE tires have RR requirements and it is better to use silica to get better grip and/or treadwear. So you could say the an OE tire generally implies the use of silica.
Would that mean all tires of the same model, or just the specific tires that go to the OEMs?
Just the tires that go to the OEM's. - except that some of those tires find their way into the tire dealer's inventory. Here, allow me to explain in more detail.
Car manufacturers issue specs to their parts suppliers - and that includes tires. For tires, there are generally only a handful of tire manufacturers that supply tires to a given manufacturer. Those tire manufacturers have to go through all kinds of scrutiny - in particular quality programs such as TS16949
The specs include just about anything you can think of. The specs are such that the tire will not only NOT be like what a tire manufacturer would design for the replacement market, but also be oriented towards fuel economy (rolling resistance), - and further, the tire specs for a given vehicle will be different that what other vehicles specify - even within the same company!) That is the tires will be so unique that they are almost certainly not like any other tire on the market.
Some tire manufacturers have a particular line of tires (maybe more than one!) that they designate as "OE Only". Some use existing tire lines where they take the size being requested and redesign it to the OEM's specs. And some do both!
There is about a 2 year qualification period, where the tires are tested. In the end, one tire manufacturer is selected to supply a given vehicle platform - and the other tire suppliers don't put their tire into product (because there is no market for it!)
Because the OEM specs include tight balance and uniformity specs, it is common for tires that aren't quite good enough to meet those tight specs, but are otherwise OK, to be sold in the replacement market - that is, tire dealers. We call those "downstream".
A longer version: Barry's Tire Tech: OE Tires
Questions?
Thanks CapriRacer. So, I do have a question or need for clarification. If I'm understanding correctly, the tire that came as OE on my car, may not be the same as the tire I receive if I replace my tires down the road with same exact tires. My 2019 Kia Sorrento came with 235/55/19 Kumho Crugen Premium a/s tires. In a few years if I buy that same tire, it may not be quite as good as the tires that I now have from the factory?
I find it interesting that you mention 'tight balance' for OEM tires vs downstream. I have always noticed over the years that the best balance jobs on tires were always the tires that came on the car (I'm talking new cars). It never occurred to me that it may be the tire that was better balanced, as opposed to the 'balance job'. Replacement tires were never balanced quite as well as the originals.
Thanks for any more input.
Originally Posted by Pew
Originally Posted by CapriRacer
OE tires generally use silica because OE tires have RR requirements and it is better to use silica to get better grip and/or treadwear. So you could say the an OE tire generally implies the use of silica.
Would that mean all tires of the same model, or just the specific tires that go to the OEMs?
Just the tires that go to the OEM's. - except that some of those tires find their way into the tire dealer's inventory. Here, allow me to explain in more detail.
Car manufacturers issue specs to their parts suppliers - and that includes tires. For tires, there are generally only a handful of tire manufacturers that supply tires to a given manufacturer. Those tire manufacturers have to go through all kinds of scrutiny - in particular quality programs such as TS16949
The specs include just about anything you can think of. The specs are such that the tire will not only NOT be like what a tire manufacturer would design for the replacement market, but also be oriented towards fuel economy (rolling resistance), - and further, the tire specs for a given vehicle will be different that what other vehicles specify - even within the same company!) That is the tires will be so unique that they are almost certainly not like any other tire on the market.
Some tire manufacturers have a particular line of tires (maybe more than one!) that they designate as "OE Only". Some use existing tire lines where they take the size being requested and redesign it to the OEM's specs. And some do both!
There is about a 2 year qualification period, where the tires are tested. In the end, one tire manufacturer is selected to supply a given vehicle platform - and the other tire suppliers don't put their tire into product (because there is no market for it!)
Because the OEM specs include tight balance and uniformity specs, it is common for tires that aren't quite good enough to meet those tight specs, but are otherwise OK, to be sold in the replacement market - that is, tire dealers. We call those "downstream".
A longer version: Barry's Tire Tech: OE Tires
Questions?
Thanks CapriRacer. So, I do have a question or need for clarification. If I'm understanding correctly, the tire that came as OE on my car, may not be the same as the tire I receive if I replace my tires down the road with same exact tires. My 2019 Kia Sorrento came with 235/55/19 Kumho Crugen Premium a/s tires. In a few years if I buy that same tire, it may not be quite as good as the tires that I now have from the factory?
I find it interesting that you mention 'tight balance' for OEM tires vs downstream. I have always noticed over the years that the best balance jobs on tires were always the tires that came on the car (I'm talking new cars). It never occurred to me that it may be the tire that was better balanced, as opposed to the 'balance job'. Replacement tires were never balanced quite as well as the originals.
Thanks for any more input.
Originally Posted by wbwanzer
...…. So, I do have a question or need for clarification. If I'm understanding correctly, the tire that came as OE on my car, may not be the same as the tire I receive if I replace my tires down the road with same exact tires. My 2019 Kia Sorrento came with 235/55/19 Kumho Crugen Premium A/S tires. In a few years if I buy that same tire, it may not be quite as good as the tires that I now have from the factory? ……
As usual, the answer is a bit more complicated than that.
As long as the tire is being supplied to the vehicle manufacturer, there will likely be identical tires available at the tire dealer - albeit, not quite as good qualitywise.
HOWEVER, once the tires are no longer being supplied, it is likely the tire will revert to replacement market specs - in other words, better wear, but worse rolling resistance. It will take some time before the old, OEM stock is used up - say a year - and after that the tire at the tire dealer will be the replacement market spec tire.
EXCEPTION: GM requires its tire suppliers to supply OEM tires to the replacement market for 3 years AFTER the tire is no longer supplied to GM. Usually this takes the form of enough overrun to supply the expect demand - and sometimes the demand is more than expected and the tire supply dries up after 2 years. (Remember when I said the company I worked for tested tires in their warehouse for aging and found that tires 3 years old were not significantly different than freshly made tires? They did this because of this GM requirement.)
Please note: Tires that are supplied to GM have to have a TPC logo branded on the sidewall. So even those tires that GM requires to be available for 3 years have to have that logo as well.
Originally Posted by wbwanzer
……….. I find it interesting that you mention 'tight balance' for OEM tires vs downstream. I have always noticed over the years that the best balance jobs on tires were always the tires that came on the car (I'm talking new cars). It never occurred to me that it may be the tire that was better balanced, as opposed to the 'balance job'. Replacement tires were never balanced quite as well as the originals. …….
Well …… Ah ...…. It's like this.
Tight balance specs only mean that less weight is applied. Once a tire (and wheel) is balanced, it is balanced. It's only when a tire is not balanced properly, that you might feel a vibration, HOWEVER, tires also have uniformity issues (think out-of-round and you'll be close) - and that is probably what you are referring to.
Yes, the OEM specs for uniformity are tighter than the replacement market specs - sometimes quite tighter. That's because the OEM doesn't want the vehicle coming back for a silly thing like a vibration.
But a new vehicle is tight and any vibration is accentuated. Once a vehicle puts some miles on, it loosens up and not only can it tolerate more tire non-uniformity, there are also more vibrations going on that can disguise that vibration. The tire manufacturers know this, so their replacement market uniformity specs are not as tight.
...…. So, I do have a question or need for clarification. If I'm understanding correctly, the tire that came as OE on my car, may not be the same as the tire I receive if I replace my tires down the road with same exact tires. My 2019 Kia Sorrento came with 235/55/19 Kumho Crugen Premium A/S tires. In a few years if I buy that same tire, it may not be quite as good as the tires that I now have from the factory? ……
As usual, the answer is a bit more complicated than that.
As long as the tire is being supplied to the vehicle manufacturer, there will likely be identical tires available at the tire dealer - albeit, not quite as good qualitywise.
HOWEVER, once the tires are no longer being supplied, it is likely the tire will revert to replacement market specs - in other words, better wear, but worse rolling resistance. It will take some time before the old, OEM stock is used up - say a year - and after that the tire at the tire dealer will be the replacement market spec tire.
EXCEPTION: GM requires its tire suppliers to supply OEM tires to the replacement market for 3 years AFTER the tire is no longer supplied to GM. Usually this takes the form of enough overrun to supply the expect demand - and sometimes the demand is more than expected and the tire supply dries up after 2 years. (Remember when I said the company I worked for tested tires in their warehouse for aging and found that tires 3 years old were not significantly different than freshly made tires? They did this because of this GM requirement.)
Please note: Tires that are supplied to GM have to have a TPC logo branded on the sidewall. So even those tires that GM requires to be available for 3 years have to have that logo as well.
Originally Posted by wbwanzer
……….. I find it interesting that you mention 'tight balance' for OEM tires vs downstream. I have always noticed over the years that the best balance jobs on tires were always the tires that came on the car (I'm talking new cars). It never occurred to me that it may be the tire that was better balanced, as opposed to the 'balance job'. Replacement tires were never balanced quite as well as the originals. …….
Well …… Ah ...…. It's like this.
Tight balance specs only mean that less weight is applied. Once a tire (and wheel) is balanced, it is balanced. It's only when a tire is not balanced properly, that you might feel a vibration, HOWEVER, tires also have uniformity issues (think out-of-round and you'll be close) - and that is probably what you are referring to.
Yes, the OEM specs for uniformity are tighter than the replacement market specs - sometimes quite tighter. That's because the OEM doesn't want the vehicle coming back for a silly thing like a vibration.
But a new vehicle is tight and any vibration is accentuated. Once a vehicle puts some miles on, it loosens up and not only can it tolerate more tire non-uniformity, there are also more vibrations going on that can disguise that vibration. The tire manufacturers know this, so their replacement market uniformity specs are not as tight.
