OEM Oil Pan Engineering

[ammolab]

Originally Posted by Whimsey
Originally Posted by The Critic
Originally Posted by OilUzer
Originally Posted by clinebarger
RTV is cheaper than a quality gasket, All automakers seem to be gravitating toward FIPG/RTV.


I recall reading that FIPGs are more prone to minor leaks or seeps with synthetic oil and/or PAO after a long time. Basically the material is not as compatible with synthetic oil.
Any truth to that?

No.

I rarely see leaks from oil pans sealed using RTV. But Timing Covers seem to be a different story.


Our 2017 2.3 EcoBoost Explorer has had the timing cover resealed twice under warranty. It'll be over the 60,000 mile power train warranty in about 3,000 miles. I asked the service advisor what happens if it leaks relatively soon after the warranty expires. His answer was

. It's a roll of the dice as to who pays for it. I think I know who will lose on that roll, ME!. The warranty cost the dealer had on the repair order was about $1500

!

Whimsey

A warranty repair at a dealer should have a time/mileage guarantee of its own. Warranty repairs at my BMW bike shop are good for 2 years. Had a part replaced under warranty last year and it has failed again...bike is now 9 years old and shop will replace it again free this month. Fuel level sensor, never lasts 2 years. This will be my 5th one!

 

[qjohn]

My opinion is it an engineering trade-off between cost, quality, durability and politics.

Let's imagine I am the Engineering Manager in charge of an engine. The head has a flat surface and valve cover is cast aluminum (because it looks good) and our team needs to decide the design and process details of how to seal it.

Scenario A: The factory tells me "Amigo! You have cut our headcount and budget so much, that all we can do is bolt the cover onto the head! Please, have the cover shipped from the vendor with an o-ring gasket already installed". So, I have our gasket engineers work with the valve cover vendor to design a gasket and a groove for the gasket. the vendor installs the gasket on the cover before shipping it to the factory. I have made my factory's job super-easy but have to pay more for the valve cover assembly and my design engineers have had to do a lot of work including releasing a gasket to the service network. The valve cover assembly comes into my factory at 'zero defects', so its quality will be high. There is zero waste. Whether it is leak-prone is mostly dependent on how well the engineers designed the gasket and cover.

Scenario B: I tell the factory "In order to keep costs down, the valve cover surface is flat and you must dispense RTV. Go buy a robot and develop a process to dispense this RTV". I have our chemical engineers design where the RTV must be squirted and what material to use. The factory buys a robot and sets up a process to dispense. I have saved material cost but made the factory's job much harder, and we had to buy a robot. Quality depends on how well the factory dispenses the RTV; they have to avoid air bubbles, make sure the robot does not run empty mid-gasket, deal with RTV curing at the tip of the robots dispensing nozzle between shifts, etc. Some of the RTV gets wasted and goes into a landfill, the RTV container needs to be disposed of. Whether it is leak-prone is dependent on the RTV selected and also how well the factory does its job.

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

LOL, that's highly accurate but I would add Scenario C:

In order to meet target "X" based on requirement "Y" we must redesign this and develop a different sealing method that meets criteria "Z"

 

[bdcardinal]

Originally Posted by ammolab
A warranty repair at a dealer should have a time/mileage guarantee of its own. Warranty repairs at my BMW bike shop are good for 2 years. Had a part replaced under warranty last year and it has failed again...bike is now 9 years old and shop will replace it again free this month. Fuel level sensor, never lasts 2 years. This will be my 5th one!


Ford warranty policy is 12/12 for a warranty repair in which the customer did not participate in the repair.

 

[nascarnation]

GM proved you could save a ton of money on robot applied rtv joints and lose 10X or more on warranty and customer dissatisfaction. When Ross Perot was buying into GM, his best quote was "I don't know much about GM cars but I know they all leak oil".

 

[OilUzer]

Originally Posted by The Critic
Originally Posted by OilUzer
Originally Posted by clinebarger
RTV is cheaper than a quality gasket, All automakers seem to be gravitating toward FIPG/RTV.


I recall reading that FIPGs are more prone to minor leaks or seeps with synthetic oil and/or PAO after a long time. Basically the material is not as compatible with synthetic oil.
Any truth to that?

No.

I rarely see leaks from oil pans sealed using RTV. But Timing Covers seem to be a different story.


What's different about timing covers and can cam towers be in the same boat?
Seems like @Whimsey confirms what you said.

Has anyone ever heard or know anything about Toyota trucks (maybe just Tundra but I'm not sure) having issues with cam towers seeping oil and in some cases it develops a very minor leak and you can smell the burning oil. It's robot applied FIPG and based on what I've read on couple of the websites, it has been going on for MANY years ... People compare it with other ongoing Ford/GM/RAM truck issues like hemi tick, etc. it's not a very common problem as far as I know but there has been many reports and complaints even with fairly new cars. Many speculate that robots are not applying enough FIPG and some say vibration/movements or even oil type attributing.

 

[Jake_J]

Regardless of whether automakers use FIPG or RTV over conventional gaskets for cost savings or any other reason I still prefer them over regular gaskets. Many gaskets get hard and start to leak over time, even when that does not happen a certain amount of weeping is considered normal for a gasket. With a mostly FIPG sealed engine that's not the case, and even older high mileage engine stay dry on the outside. I'd suspect the reason Ford or Toyota have issues with timing cover FIPG seals is because the covers are very large on modern timing chain engines with a lot of fasteners and a large sealing area, so there is a lot more potential for imperfect machine on sealing surface or a couple bolts coming loose over time.

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted by qjohn
My opinion is it an engineering trade-off between cost, quality, durability and politics.

Let's imagine I am the Engineering Manager in charge of an engine. The head has a flat surface and valve cover is cast aluminum (because it looks good) and our team needs to decide the design and process details of how to seal it.

Scenario A: The factory tells me "Amigo! You have cut our headcount and budget so much, that all we can do is bolt the cover onto the head! Please, have the cover shipped from the vendor with an o-ring gasket already installed". So, I have our gasket engineers work with the valve cover vendor to design a gasket and a groove for the gasket. the vendor installs the gasket on the cover before shipping it to the factory. I have made my factory's job super-easy but have to pay more for the valve cover assembly and my design engineers have had to do a lot of work including releasing a gasket to the service network. The valve cover assembly comes into my factory at 'zero defects', so its quality will be high. There is zero waste. Whether it is leak-prone is mostly dependent on how well the engineers designed the gasket and cover.

Scenario B: I tell the factory "In order to keep costs down, the valve cover surface is flat and you must dispense RTV. Go buy a robot and develop a process to dispense this RTV". I have our chemical engineers design where the RTV must be squirted and what material to use. The factory buys a robot and sets up a process to dispense. I have saved material cost but made the factory's job much harder, and we had to buy a robot. Quality depends on how well the factory dispenses the RTV; they have to avoid air bubbles, make sure the robot does not run empty mid-gasket, deal with RTV curing at the tip of the robots dispensing nozzle between shifts, etc. Some of the RTV gets wasted and goes into a landfill, the RTV container needs to be disposed of. Whether it is leak-prone is dependent on the RTV selected and also how well the factory does its job.






Beings I work for GM I gotta say you hit the nail on the head HARD lol. I have been in decision making processes exactly like that - it is not always cut and dry. Good example and written so it was fun to read too!

 

[Whimsey]

Originally Posted by bdcardinal
Originally Posted by ammolab
A warranty repair at a dealer should have a time/mileage guarantee of its own. Warranty repairs at my BMW bike shop are good for 2 years. Had a part replaced under warranty last year and it has failed again...bike is now 9 years old and shop will replace it again free this month. Fuel level sensor, never lasts 2 years. This will be my 5th one!


Ford warranty policy is 12/12 for a warranty repair in which the customer did not participate in the repair.


What does "...in which the customer did not participate in the repair..." mean?

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted by 14Accent
Originally Posted by GMBoy
Honda has been using RTV on their engines since atleast 2000. I remember doing a 2000 Accord V6 oil pan replacement last year...and Honda has their own very well known RTV that works great. The closest equivalent is "The right Stuff" RTV and it works great. Beings that that Honda had 445k miles on the original oil pan until it started to leak leads me to believe RTV is a perfectly acceptable replacement to a traditional gasket given how technology has improved.
Ah, good ol' Honda-Bond.... how I detest the stuff. It seals great, but it's very thick. I just finished an oil pump and pan reseal on an Acura ZDX with the 3.7, by the time I got the bead of sealant laid my hands were so tired I could barely manipulate the parts and bolts to re-install the pieces in the 5-10 minute window you have after sealant application.

I wouldn't use Hondabond anyway, the current product is Ultra Flange II which is very similar to Toyota FPG and Permatex Right Stuff. With the time frame you're mentioning that must be what you used.

Hondabond HT can be used on oil pans. It is still the preferred sealant for oil pans and timing covers for most Honda engines. In this somewhat recent TSB, they still specified Hondabond HT for the oil pan.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2019/MC-10153886-0001.pdf

 

[kschachn]

Hondabond HT can be used on oil pans. It is still the preferred sealant for oil pans and timing covers for most Honda engines. In this somewhat recent TSB, they still specified Hondabond HT for the oil pan.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2019/MC-10153886-0001.pdf

Sure but why? The cost? It’s not what Honda recommends these days for that application.

 

[The Critic]

Sure but why? The cost? It’s not what Honda recommends these days for that application.

Not sure where you’re getting this info?

Service information and engine repair specific TSB’s continue to list HT for oil pans and timing covers. Those are the most accurate sources of information, not the generic Honda chemical catalog.

 

[nthach]

Sure but why? The cost? It’s not what Honda recommends these days for that application.

Honda is still using Hondabond HT for many things. Their newer Ultra Flange is for specific applications.

I think Hondabond HT is an acrylic/polyurethane sealant, Ultra Flange is RTV AFAIK. The only time I used Hondabond was when I was adjusting valves on a Civic a while ago.

 

[The Critic]

Honda is still using Hondabond HT for many things. Their newer Ultra Flange is for specific applications.

I think Hondabond HT is an acrylic/polyurethane sealant, Ultra Flange is RTV AFAIK. The only time I used Hondabond was when I was adjusting valves on a Civic a while ago.

Hondabond is TB 1216E. It is a oxime type rtv.