OEM Oil Pan Engineering

Joined
Mar 13, 2018
Messages
51
Location
MW
why do some manufacturers engineer their oil pans to require a rubber gasket and others require RTV. my two examples are the honda B-series engines that have the rubber gaskets compared to the nissan sr20det engines that call for RTV.

is it cost savings or is one a better design than the other?
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by clinebarger
RTV is cheaper than a quality gasket, All automakers seem to be gravitating toward FIPG/RTV.


Ditto. The assembly line robots that dispense glues or sealants do it with amazing precision. No waste or errors like with humans, so it's basically equivalent to a gasket while being a fraction of the cost.
 
Probably seals better to if there are any imperfections plus the dealer doesn't need to wait for a gasket they may not have in stock when working on an oil pan.
 
Originally Posted by clinebarger
RTV is cheaper than a quality gasket, All automakers seem to be gravitating toward FIPG/RTV.


I recall reading that FIPGs are more prone to minor leaks or seeps with synthetic oil and/or PAO after a long time. Basically the material is not as compatible with synthetic oil.
Any truth to that?
 
It's all about reducing production costs and increasing production efficiency. RTV is not becoming popular because it is better.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by OilUzer
Originally Posted by clinebarger
RTV is cheaper than a quality gasket, All automakers seem to be gravitating toward FIPG/RTV.


I recall reading that FIPGs are more prone to minor leaks or seeps with synthetic oil and/or PAO after a long time. Basically the material is not as compatible with synthetic oil.
Any truth to that?

No.

I rarely see leaks from oil pans sealed using RTV. But Timing Covers seem to be a different story.
 
Honda has been using RTV on their engines since atleast 2000. I remember doing a 2000 Accord V6 oil pan replacement last year...and Honda has their own very well known RTV that works great. The closest equivalent is "The right Stuff" RTV and it works great. Beings that that Honda had 445k miles on the original oil pan until it started to leak leads me to believe RTV is a perfectly acceptable replacement to a traditional gasket given how technology has improved.
 
Originally Posted by GMBoy
Honda has been using RTV on their engines since atleast 2000. I remember doing a 2000 Accord V6 oil pan replacement last year...and Honda has their own very well known RTV that works great. The closest equivalent is "The right Stuff" RTV and it works great. Beings that that Honda had 445k miles on the original oil pan until it started to leak leads me to believe RTV is a perfectly acceptable replacement to a traditional gasket given how technology has improved.


Ah, good ol' Honda-Bond.... how I detest the stuff. It seals great, but it's very thick. I just finished an oil pump and pan reseal on an Acura ZDX with the 3.7, by the time I got the bead of sealant laid my hands were so tired I could barely manipulate the parts and bolts to re-install the pieces in the 5-10 minute window you have after sealant application.
 
Originally Posted by OilUzer
Originally Posted by clinebarger
RTV is cheaper than a quality gasket, All automakers seem to be gravitating toward FIPG/RTV.


I recall reading that FIPGs are more prone to minor leaks or seeps with synthetic oil and/or PAO after a long time. Basically the material is not as compatible with synthetic oil.
Any truth to that?

No, I has a 92 and a 96 Toyota pu the 92 mine and the 96 my dads last almost 20 years until totaled mine and sold my dads running synoil in all holes since new and no leaks. Replaced the1992 with a 2006 Tacoma and that that had syn oil as well without any leaks.
 
FWIW, I recently replaced the valve cover gasket on my Pontiac since it was leaking pretty bad. After 12 years and 208,000 miles the valve cover gasket cracked and leaked while the RTV sealed oil pan is spotless, no leak whatsoever.
 
Originally Posted by 14Accent
Originally Posted by GMBoy
Honda has been using RTV on their engines since atleast 2000. I remember doing a 2000 Accord V6 oil pan replacement last year...and Honda has their own very well known RTV that works great. The closest equivalent is "The right Stuff" RTV and it works great. Beings that that Honda had 445k miles on the original oil pan until it started to leak leads me to believe RTV is a perfectly acceptable replacement to a traditional gasket given how technology has improved.
Ah, good ol' Honda-Bond.... how I detest the stuff. It seals great, but it's very thick. I just finished an oil pump and pan reseal on an Acura ZDX with the 3.7, by the time I got the bead of sealant laid my hands were so tired I could barely manipulate the parts and bolts to re-install the pieces in the 5-10 minute window you have after sealant application.

I wouldn't use Hondabond anyway, the current product is Ultra Flange II which is very similar to Toyota FPG and Permatex Right Stuff. With the time frame you're mentioning that must be what you used.
 
Originally Posted by DirtyOilGuy
why do some manufacturers engineer their oil pans to require a rubber gasket and others require RTV. my two examples are the honda B-series engines that have the rubber gaskets compared to the nissan sr20det engines that call for RTV.

is it cost savings or is one a better design than the other?


Give you a piece of information I get frequently from my gasket/seal vendors when I consult with their engineering on application specifics.

Whether its factually true or not I don't know but both manufacturers say basically the same but I don't do anything in automotive design to know personally.

Its a cost savings as a result of a design in many cases. ( not to mention that modern sealants are often superior in traditional sealing applications where high pressures or temperatures are present)

In applications where the gasket is also not moonlighting as a shim, there is a requirement for both a certain material rigidity as well as compression for a gasket to function properly.

I am told that in order to try to meet CAFE standards and cut costs overall that the traditional thicknesses and sizes of components are often reduced to where sometimes traditional gaskets would be prone to fail. That would either mean a different gasket configuration ( rubber, O ring, Groove or machined fit) or a different sealing technology like RTV products.

Personally I don't know but it sounds like exactly what I see clients doing in everything else for the sake of the bottom line.
 
On my old vehicles, I've not seen leaks of any sort from a properly made RTV joint using a high quality sealant such as Honda Ultra Flange II or Toyota FPG. But I have seen all the gasket joints leak eventually.
 
Gaskets don't need to cure so they allow for faster and fool proof repair.

Sealants are cheaper to apply during assembly at the factory but harder to repair. On the other hand they seem to fail at a significantly lower frequency vs gaskets.

Perhaps it's just matter of cost for the manufacturer? Euro makes appear to like gaskets over sealants yet oil leaks appear to be more common.
21.gif


On a side note some gaskets are composite of metal and Viton rubber.
 
Last edited:
Funny thing. I just watched an episode of "How It's Made" last night. One segment was on engine assembly. I was simply amazed at hoow quickly, and uniformly a robot can apply a bead of RTV! Like 2 seconds to do the whole part, even intricate designs. Came out perfectly even too!
 
Originally Posted by JohnG
Funny thing. I just watched an episode of "How It's Made" last night. One segment was on engine assembly. I was simply amazed at hoow quickly, and uniformly a robot can apply a bead of RTV! Like 2 seconds to do the whole part, even intricate designs. Came out perfectly even too!


And that robot will do it the exact same way thousands of times a day, no waste, no drips. This also means the engineer can use the bare minimum amount of product since it can be applied so precisely, which saves money and weight.
 
In the 1970s RTV was used on lots on industrial engines and I remember being sent out to fix the shop guys poor work and resealing the pans. Ultimate cleanliness is so important with RTV.
 
Originally Posted by The Critic
Originally Posted by OilUzer
Originally Posted by clinebarger
RTV is cheaper than a quality gasket, All automakers seem to be gravitating toward FIPG/RTV.


I recall reading that FIPGs are more prone to minor leaks or seeps with synthetic oil and/or PAO after a long time. Basically the material is not as compatible with synthetic oil.
Any truth to that?

No.

I rarely see leaks from oil pans sealed using RTV. But Timing Covers seem to be a different story.


Our 2017 2.3 EcoBoost Explorer has had the timing cover resealed twice under warranty. It'll be over the 60,000 mile power train warranty in about 3,000 miles. I asked the service advisor what happens if it leaks relatively soon after the warranty expires. His answer was
21.gif
. It's a roll of the dice as to who pays for it. I think I know who will lose on that roll, ME!. The warranty cost the dealer had on the repair order was about $1500
shocked2.gif
!

Whimsey
 
Back
Top