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Torque Specs Site #5408006 04/19/20 05:01 PM
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TheLawnRanger Offline OP
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Is there a reliable website to find torque specs? I have Haynes service manuals but like to double check.


2011 Impala
2012 Colorado
Oil: 5w30 synthetic
Filters: Wix 51522 for both
Re: Torque Specs Site [Re: TheLawnRanger] #5408016 04/19/20 05:09 PM
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ZeeOSix Offline
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I wouldn't trust any website unless it was a website that is showing the factory service manual. I'd believe Haynes over some random website.

Have you searched for a PDF of the factory service manual? I can usually find a PDF for most everything I've owned.

Re: Torque Specs Site [Re: TheLawnRanger] #5408018 04/19/20 05:10 PM
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ABN_CBT_ENGR Offline
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Originally Posted by TheLawnRanger
Is there a reliable website to find torque specs? I have Haynes service manuals but like to double check.


Theres no such thing as a "reliable" torque specification- it doesn't exist.

The best you can hope for is a company to publish something along the lines of "under these conditions this number is recommended" and that's based on averages and experience because torque has no direct correlation to fastener tension and there are too many variables for any specification to capture.

Even then, that's a conditional guess based on a lot of assumptions that can be right or wrong for your application based on a host of conditions.

Re: Torque Specs Site [Re: ABN_CBT_ENGR] #5408024 04/19/20 05:18 PM
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ZeeOSix Offline
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Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
Theres no such thing as a "reliable" torque specification- it doesn't exist.


If you can't trust the factory service manual, you can't trust anybody. I've been torquing fasteners for 40 years per factory service manuals and have never had any issues at all.

Re: Torque Specs Site [Re: ZeeOSix] #5408033 04/19/20 05:31 PM
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ABN_CBT_ENGR Offline
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Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
Theres no such thing as a "reliable" torque specification- it doesn't exist.


If you can't trust the factory service manual, you can't trust anybody. I've been torquing fasteners for 40 years per factory service manuals and have never had any issues at all.


Simple, read what I wrote again. ( been one of those OEM's who wrote them specifications for some equipment)

They already know the average person will most likely not have the tools and equipment necessary to do things properly.

They also know theres a point where liability ( both brand and civil) attach ( so legal reviews them too) attaches.

They also know they have to give you something to go by for maintenance etc.

So they do controlled experiments with whatever the standard is applicable and come up with a safe comfortable range and publish it.

Then theres the fine print( expressed or implied) that defines that specification ( certain finishes, clean holes, proper threads, proper flatness etc.) that gives them numerous outs.

I can also show you hundreds of times ( many in court) where OEM 'specifications" were not only flat out wrong but actually caused the damage so an OEM is anything BUT an "infallible authority" on anything. Many of them just print industry standard settings with little to no testing to validate it. Others farm it out and base specifications solely on modeling like FEA or Solid works with no actual lab testing.

To your point, published specifications are generally adequate for all "normal operations" ( whatever that is) and they work. Nobody disputes that.

However context is key- the OP asked about "reliable specifications" in general and that's what I addressed specifically.

Re: Torque Specs Site [Re: ABN_CBT_ENGR] #5408048 04/19/20 05:57 PM
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ZeeOSix Offline
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Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
They also know theres a point where liability ( both brand and civil) attach ( so legal reviews them too) attaches.


If someone doesn't own a good torque wrench then they don't care about torque specs. All you need is basic tools and a torque wrench to torque fasteners per a factory service manual. Like I said, if you can't trust a factory service manual then you can't trust anybody on what the torque spec should be.

Torquing fasteners per the service manual isn't rocket science.

Re: Torque Specs Site [Re: ZeeOSix] #5408056 04/19/20 06:03 PM
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ABN_CBT_ENGR Offline
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Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
They also know theres a point where liability ( both brand and civil) attach ( so legal reviews them too) attaches.


If someone doesn't own a good torque wrench then they don't care about torque specs. All you need is basic tools and a torque wrench to torque fasteners per a factory service manual. Like I said, if you can't trust a factory service manual then you can't trust anybody on what the torque spec should be.

Torquing fasteners per the service manual isn't rocket science.


I don't disagree with anything you said and in context its totally correct.

However, in reality when actual joint loading/tensioning is critical- torqueing ( in any capacity with any tool whatsoever) is the LEAST accurate method of proper and even fastener tensioning and outlawed in many industries as a result. That's a simple fact of physics and well proven engineering constant.

That's all I was saying.

Re: Torque Specs Site [Re: ABN_CBT_ENGR] #5408057 04/19/20 06:05 PM
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doitmyself Offline
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Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
However context is key- the OP asked about "reliable specifications" in general and that's what I addressed specifically.


No. The OP asked for reliable websites to find, in your words "published specifications (that) are generally adequate for all "normal operations" ( whatever that is) and they work. Nobody disputes that."

He wants the specifications that people would use in the real world to achieve "adequate results for all normal operations". I.E., lug nut torque that will prevent the wheel from coming loose.


The engineering websites state that using a torque wrench can result in 25-30% +/- errors depending on all the variables. We understand that and accept that the torque process is what it is. We don't have any other practical means to measure fasterner connections in the real world. Measuring bolt stretch is not practical for routine automotive applications. You use the word reality without seeming to have any concept of it.

Re: Torque Specs Site [Re: ABN_CBT_ENGR] #5408061 04/19/20 06:09 PM
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ZeeOSix Offline
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Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
They also know theres a point where liability ( both brand and civil) attach ( so legal reviews them too) attaches.

If someone doesn't own a good torque wrench then they don't care about torque specs. All you need is basic tools and a torque wrench to torque fasteners per a factory service manual. Like I said, if you can't trust a factory service manual then you can't trust anybody on what the torque spec should be.

Torquing fasteners per the service manual isn't rocket science.

I don't disagree with anything you said and in context its totally correct.

However, in reality when actual joint loading/tensioning is critical- torqueing ( in any capacity with any tool whatsoever) is the LEAST accurate method of proper and even fastener tensioning and outlawed in many industries as a result. That's a simple fact of physics and well proven engineering constant.

That's all I was saying.


Yeah, I know. But don't you think the engineers who have specified torque specs, procedures and requirements in a factory service manual haven't done any research or put any thought into specifying a torque spec? Engineering isn't that hard.

Like I said, I've been torquing thousands of fasteners for over 40 years and have never had any issues following the factory service manual torque specs.

Re: Torque Specs Site [Re: doitmyself] #5408067 04/19/20 06:15 PM
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ABN_CBT_ENGR Offline
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Originally Posted by doitmyself
Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
However context is key- the OP asked about "reliable specifications" in general and that's what I addressed specifically.


No. The OP asked for reliable websites to find, in your words "published specifications (that) are generally adequate for all "normal operations" ( whatever that is) and they work. Nobody disputes that."

He wants the specifications that people would use in the real world to achieve "adequate results for all normal operations". I.E., lug nut torque that will prevent the wheel from coming loose.


Right and they don't exist- here's more

First- a "fastener torque" is meaningless without knowing both the compressive qualities of the joint layers and the shear and tangent loading.

The fastener is normally ( and it better be) the strongest part of a given joint and torqueing to a fastener "max" can often damage the joint and make it unserviceable.

Also for a given stud- you would have a different 'torque spec" for steel, aluminum, magnesium and for various thickness' too to achieve proper tension.

That is "real world" .

You cannot define an "adequate result" without knowing all parts of the equation- anything less is just another guess.

There is no "one size fits all" specification or application and even then torque is meaningless in terms of fastener tension because there is no direct correlation.

That's just the simple truth of the matter regardless of popularity or acceptance.

Re: Torque Specs Site [Re: TheLawnRanger] #5408068 04/19/20 06:19 PM
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doitmyself Offline
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You are saying that I should not use the published specification in my service manual to torque my lug nuts, correct?

Re: Torque Specs Site [Re: ZeeOSix] #5408073 04/19/20 06:23 PM
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ABN_CBT_ENGR Offline
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Originally Posted by ZeeOSix

Yeah, I know. But don't you think the engineers who have specified torque specs, procedures and requirements in a factory service manual haven't done any research or put any thought into specifying a torque spec? Engineering isn't that hard.

Like I said, I've been torquing thousands of fasteners for over 40 years and have never had any issues following the factory service manual torque specs.


Yes I know beyond any shadow of any doubt whatsoever that in many cases the do not. I have been on both sides of that equation and know both to the molecular level.

How I know is that when I design and spec a machine for a process ( and eventually commission and stamp it) one of the first things I require of a machine vendor is their design engineering and QA/QC program to validate the machine.

Then I read all their testing then I often go to the OEM and certify the facility.

You are correct that it isn't that hard but it IS EXPENSIVE and many companies do it, others do it partially and some companies simply risk it on their matrix knowing the odds are on their side.

The truth of how many OEM specifications are "less than reliable" would shock a lot of people.

Re: Torque Specs Site [Re: doitmyself] #5408081 04/19/20 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by doitmyself
You are saying that I should not use the published specification in my service manual to torque my lug nuts, correct?


Incorrect,

I said to not "assume" that the spec that is published is the result of endless diligent laboratory testing that covers every possible application and condition and said specification is somehow elevated to a status that it is an absolute that is "inarguable" and all encompassing for eternity.

A good deal of critical thinking, research and a degree of caveat emptor is strongly advised when using generic published specifications because your application may be different than the criteria the specification is written against.

That's what I am saying.

Re: Torque Specs Site [Re: ABN_CBT_ENGR] #5408086 04/19/20 06:37 PM
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doitmyself Offline
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You are saying that it is o.k. to use the published specification in a factory service manual for a particular vehicle, but it may not be correct due to insufficient testing of all varialbles. In my case lug nuts that might be exposed to salt, rust, hot/cold, etc..

Last edited by doitmyself; 04/19/20 06:40 PM.
Re: Torque Specs Site [Re: doitmyself] #5408088 04/19/20 06:39 PM
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ABN_CBT_ENGR Offline
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Originally Posted by doitmyself
You are saying that it is o.k. to use the published specification, but it may not be correct due to insufficient testing for that particular instance, in my case lug nuts.


Exactly, nothing more and nothing less than that

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