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SAE Gear Oil Grade Table - Has it Changed Recently? #5398921 04/10/20 12:12 AM
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Cdn17Sport6MT Offline OP
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Specialists out there, please humor me by answering my dumb question: Like the title says, has there been a recent change in the gear oil table?

I attach the first one (I don't know where I got it...) and if we want to focus say on 75W-80 - it says that (non-W) 80 wt has to be at least 7 cS viscosity at 100°C. If you look at the second table, it says the kinematic viscosity at 100°C has to be at least 8.02 cS. There are also changes in the 75W values... 4.1 cS versus 4.4 cS... ???? If I consider Pentosin MTF-2 it would be a 75W-80 according to the first table and not the second.

See the Pentosin bulletin, 3rd-up...

Anyone know what's going on?

Screenshot_2020-02-13-15-30-59-1.pngScreenshot_2020-04-09-21-35-56-1.pngScreenshot_2020-04-06-22-30-28.png
Last edited by Cdn17Sport6MT; 04/10/20 12:24 AM.

Mazda6 GX (i.e.Sport), 6MT, '17
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (Euro version), '85
Honda Civic Si (EX 2 dr in the 'States), A/T, '97
Toyota Camry CE, 5MT, '99
Toyota Corolla VE, 4AT, '99
VW (Type2) Kombi, 4MT, '79
Re: SAE Grade Table - Has ot Changed Recently? [Re: Cdn17Sport6MT] #5398923 04/10/20 12:20 AM
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ZeeOSix Offline
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Originally Posted by Cdn17Sport6MT
Anyone know what's going on?


Could be a lot of years between those two sources. What's the spec today? ... that's what matters. Everything else is history.

Re: SAE Grade Table - Has ot Changed Recently? [Re: Cdn17Sport6MT] #5398928 04/10/20 12:44 AM
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[Linked Image]

Re: SAE Grade Table - Has ot Changed Recently? [Re: Cdn17Sport6MT] #5398933 04/10/20 12:56 AM
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Cdn17Sport6MT Offline OP
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Thx bluefeb95... The hyperlink, in blue in my screen, and last word of your post... does not activate. Could you please provide that to me again?


Mazda6 GX (i.e.Sport), 6MT, '17
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (Euro version), '85
Honda Civic Si (EX 2 dr in the 'States), A/T, '97
Toyota Camry CE, 5MT, '99
Toyota Corolla VE, 4AT, '99
VW (Type2) Kombi, 4MT, '79
Re: SAE Grade Table - Has ot Changed Recently? [Re: Cdn17Sport6MT] #5398935 04/10/20 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Cdn17Sport6MT
Thx bluefeb95... The hyperlink, in blue in my screen, and last word of your post... does not activate. Could you please provide that to me again?

It's actually a screen shot, but here's the original article, Lubrizol - Why has SAE J306 for Automotive Gear Lubricants Been Revised

Re: SAE Grade Table - Has ot Changed Recently? [Re: Cdn17Sport6MT] #5399225 04/10/20 11:01 AM
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Cdn17Sport6MT Offline OP
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So if this change is now in place - then when a mfr designed a transmission or transaxle originally... and spec'd an SAE lubricant weight/grade that was in play then... well, a person would have to apply a lubricant to that transmission now that DID meet the original spec'c range(s) of viscosity... Correct?

Last edited by Cdn17Sport6MT; 04/10/20 11:02 AM.

Mazda6 GX (i.e.Sport), 6MT, '17
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (Euro version), '85
Honda Civic Si (EX 2 dr in the 'States), A/T, '97
Toyota Camry CE, 5MT, '99
Toyota Corolla VE, 4AT, '99
VW (Type2) Kombi, 4MT, '79
Re: SAE Grade Table - Has ot Changed Recently? [Re: Cdn17Sport6MT] #5399240 04/10/20 11:15 AM
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Cdn17Sport6MT Offline OP
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Seems to me that i) to the extent that bearing journal surfaces / bearings... and gear-to-gear contact faces would require min oil film thicknesses / properties that are related to the viscosities... and ii) the flow characteristics along drilled shafts / oiling funnel systems (for oil delivery to the running surfaces) - (and these two behaviours go in opposite "directions") are key. So a prudent owner that is "in-the-know" would choose lubricants now that are i) in the middle of the SAE viscosity ranges; and ii) that clearly do not fall outside of the original gear viscosity ranges that were in place at the time of the transmission design.

Effectively, the new specs are giving us heavier gear oil viscosities...?

Do I have this right?


Mazda6 GX (i.e.Sport), 6MT, '17
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (Euro version), '85
Honda Civic Si (EX 2 dr in the 'States), A/T, '97
Toyota Camry CE, 5MT, '99
Toyota Corolla VE, 4AT, '99
VW (Type2) Kombi, 4MT, '79
Re: SAE Grade Table - Has ot Changed Recently? [Re: Cdn17Sport6MT] #5399853 04/10/20 11:40 PM
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Cdn17Sport6MT Offline OP
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Thread bump... any comments on this? MolaKule, Zeng, Others?

Here is a screenshot of a Lubrizol article, courtesy of bluefeb95. See the highlighted bump-up of non-W rated 80 weight...

Note, particularly, that the 75W value appears to be going DOWN, rather then up... i.e. the 80 wt is going up, the 75W goes down to 3.8 cS. It is contra to the trend happening in the first two graphics.

????

SAEJ306 Changes - Highlight - 80 Weight.jpg
Last edited by Cdn17Sport6MT; 04/10/20 11:48 PM.

Mazda6 GX (i.e.Sport), 6MT, '17
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (Euro version), '85
Honda Civic Si (EX 2 dr in the 'States), A/T, '97
Toyota Camry CE, 5MT, '99
Toyota Corolla VE, 4AT, '99
VW (Type2) Kombi, 4MT, '79
Re: SAE Grade Table - Has ot Changed Recently? [Re: Cdn17Sport6MT] #5399862 04/11/20 12:09 AM
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zeng Offline
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Originally Posted by Cdn17Sport6MT
So if this change is now in place - then when a mfr designed a transmission or transaxle originally... and spec'd an SAE lubricant weight/grade that was in play then... well, a person would have to apply a lubricant to that transmission now that DID meet the original spec'c range(s) of viscosity... Correct?

First off, tribute to blufeb95 for the latest update on SAE J306 .

Yes as per original spec'ed , in accordance with the original selection by OEM's i.e earlier SAE classification, as intended .

Hence, IMHO SAE 90 OEM recommendation prior to 'splitting' in 2005 J306 classification should reference to gear oil [email protected]*C of say, 220 - 320 cSt as originally intended .

Whilst OEM recommendation of SAE 80W90 multigrades prior to 2005 may be 'back-dated' (or forward-dated ?) to modern day GL4/5 of [email protected]*C of 150 - 220 cSt .

Note: 2005 SAE J306 splits old SAE 90 grade to modern day SAE 90 and SAE 110 grades .

Re: SAE Grade Table - Has ot Changed Recently? [Re: Cdn17Sport6MT] #5400251 04/11/20 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Cdn17Sport6MT
...Thread bump... any comments on this? MolaKule, Zeng, Others?

????...


i am not clear as to your question.

Lubrizol has a good explanation;

Quote
...The revised SAE J306 standard, effective February 2019, better outlines the low viscosity grades for future manual transmission fluid and automotive gear oil requirements through the introduction of three new viscosity grades:

SAE 65
SAE 70
SAE 75
At the same time, the existing SAE 80 viscosity grade is being amended to tighten the broad kinematic viscosity window which currently exists.

Lowering the current minimum kinematic viscosity limit from 7.0 cSt to 3.8 cSt @100°C allows for new lubricants as low as SAE 65 to be utilized in conjunction with more modern hardware designs...

...Lubrizol views this revision with precise viscosity bands as a positive move, because it gives a framework to develop low viscosity fluids with the appropriate balance of efficiency and durability. The introduction of new lower viscosity grades provides the opportunity for more efficient automotive gear lubricants to work in harmony with advanced hardware designs, where the lubricant enables hardware design improvements as well as directly contributing to increased efficiency through its lower viscosity characteristics....



I happen to agree that since increased efficiency is being required, it give formulators more latitude in developing the lower viscosity driveline fluids.


"As engineers [and scientists] we are wired to solve problems and to create new things, to challenge the status quo and push the limits..." Ken Hurt, Embry-Riddle University, Class of '97.
Re: SAE Grade Table - Has ot Changed Recently? [Re: MolaKule] #5400275 04/11/20 01:52 PM
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Thx, but when original designs were conceived did the engineers not count on MOFT's (that correlate with viscosities)... and also shaft drillings lubricant flow properties (correlated to viscosities) - so that at-the-time-of-design SAE spec's - and their viscosities (as Zeng says) have to be used in thise gearboxes now? i.e. NOT current-spec SAE grade viscosities?

Last edited by Cdn17Sport6MT; 04/11/20 01:52 PM.

Mazda6 GX (i.e.Sport), 6MT, '17
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (Euro version), '85
Honda Civic Si (EX 2 dr in the 'States), A/T, '97
Toyota Camry CE, 5MT, '99
Toyota Corolla VE, 4AT, '99
VW (Type2) Kombi, 4MT, '79
Re: SAE Grade Table - Has ot Changed Recently? [Re: Cdn17Sport6MT] #5400667 04/11/20 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Cdn17Sport6MT
Seems to me that i) to the extent that bearing journal surfaces / bearings... and gear-to-gear contact faces would require min oil film thicknesses / properties that are related to the viscosities...

Yes, by minimising frictional forces and frictional wear i.e aiming towards the right hand side of the Stribeck curve/lubrication regimes .



Quote
and ii) the flow characteristics along drilled shafts / oiling funnel systems (for oil delivery to the running surfaces) - (and these two behaviours go in opposite "directions") are key.

No .
In real life scenarios they are not in ' opposite directions' as automotive holes drilling is not in the realm of nano-scale miniature manufacturing if you get what I mean .


Quote
So a prudent owner that is "in-the-know" would choose lubricants now that are i) in the middle of the SAE viscosity ranges;

The logic makes sense in a way , but it is not always 'desirable' in automotive gear oil (ATF/MTF/axle oil) as one could select one viscosity grade beyond OEM recommended maximum/minimum grades to achieve a 'desired' outcome .

For example, I had replaced OEM recommended UTTO/UTF 5W30 GL4 grades (of [email protected]*C 55-65 cSt) with a SAE140 GL5 (of [email protected]*C 420 cSt) in non-hypoid gear trains vastly reducing (or eliminating ?) equipment breakdowns .

Optimum selection of automotive oil viscosity grades is always a compromise .



Last edited by zeng; 04/11/20 10:37 PM.
Re: SAE Grade Table - Has ot Changed Recently? [Re: zeng] #5400680 04/11/20 11:05 PM
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Cdn17Sport6MT Offline OP
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Thx, Zeng. I am PM'ing you on this, as I suspect the Mainstream is bored by my posts on this...


Mazda6 GX (i.e.Sport), 6MT, '17
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (Euro version), '85
Honda Civic Si (EX 2 dr in the 'States), A/T, '97
Toyota Camry CE, 5MT, '99
Toyota Corolla VE, 4AT, '99
VW (Type2) Kombi, 4MT, '79
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