I feel the opposite about modern military pattern rifles. They all do the same thing and generally have the same requirements, but the design choices made to get there are fascinating.
BSW
BSW
9mm vs. .40 s&w
- Thread starter LoneRanger
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Oh boy this old debate again. I prefer 9mm personally due to cost of ammo. Power gains with .40 are not significant enough to warrant the increase in cost IMO. Now 10mm is another question
All quality defensive ammo is built to the FBI test spec so it really doesn't matter.
All quality defensive ammo is built to the FBI test spec so it really doesn't matter.
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Triple_Se7en
$50 Site Donor 2024
Really not much of a debate anymore. 40s sales has fallen so far, they can't even stand up to the still hot-sellin' 9mms.
40s are only semi-fun to shoot, if the gun is heavy. 9mms are much easier to handle - much easier to hit the target square.
40s are only semi-fun to shoot, if the gun is heavy. 9mms are much easier to handle - much easier to hit the target square.
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Really not much of a debate anymore. 40s sales has fallen so far, they can't even stand up to the still hot-sellin' 9mms.
40s are only semi-fun to shoot, if the gun is heavy. 9mms are much easier to handle - much easier to hit the target square.
So you're saying sales figures determines effectiveness? Interesting!
Really not much of a debate anymore. 40s sales has fallen so far, they can't even stand up to the still hot-sellin' 9mms.
40s are only semi-fun to shoot, if the gun is heavy. 9mms are much easier to handle - much easier to hit the target square.
So you're saying sales figures determines effectiveness? Interesting!
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.40 S&W does have an energy advantage over 9mmP. That advantage comes at the cost of increased recoil and reduced capacity.
My take on the subject is that 9mmP offers enough performance in pistols that most users think it's adequate for what they are asking pistols to do, stop the action of the bad guy.
Would .40 theoretically stop a bigger or tougher bad guy? Probably, but humans come in the size range humans come in. A cartridge that usually incapacitates the shootee and gets the job done is good enough. Plus it's easier to shoot and has more capacity, or that smaller size can be traded off for a smaller, lighter pistol.
It sounds like I'm totally knocking the .40 S&W. I'm not, I like my USP and find it to be pleasant shooting, even if it costs more to keep fed. But I don't feel undergunned carrying a 9mmP either.
BSW
My take on the subject is that 9mmP offers enough performance in pistols that most users think it's adequate for what they are asking pistols to do, stop the action of the bad guy.
Would .40 theoretically stop a bigger or tougher bad guy? Probably, but humans come in the size range humans come in. A cartridge that usually incapacitates the shootee and gets the job done is good enough. Plus it's easier to shoot and has more capacity, or that smaller size can be traded off for a smaller, lighter pistol.
It sounds like I'm totally knocking the .40 S&W. I'm not, I like my USP and find it to be pleasant shooting, even if it costs more to keep fed. But I don't feel undergunned carrying a 9mmP either.
BSW
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Really not much of a debate anymore. 40s sales has fallen so far, they can't even stand up to the still hot-sellin' 9mms.
40s are only semi-fun to shoot, if the gun is heavy. 9mms are much easier to handle - much easier to hit the target square.
Sales are not usually an indicator.
I thought the 10mm was doomed but recently there has been a resurgence of the 10 with various gunmakers coming out with new 10mm pistols and especially 10mm carbines.
Really not much of a debate anymore. 40s sales has fallen so far, they can't even stand up to the still hot-sellin' 9mms.
40s are only semi-fun to shoot, if the gun is heavy. 9mms are much easier to handle - much easier to hit the target square.
Sales are not usually an indicator.
I thought the 10mm was doomed but recently there has been a resurgence of the 10 with various gunmakers coming out with new 10mm pistols and especially 10mm carbines.
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Really not much of a debate anymore. 40s sales has fallen so far, they can't even stand up to the still hot-sellin' 9mms.
40s are only semi-fun to shoot, if the gun is heavy. 9mms are much easier to handle - much easier to hit the target square.
Sales are not usually an indicator.
I thought the 10mm was doomed but recently there has been a resurgence of the 10 with various gunmakers coming out with new 10mm pistols and especially 10mm carbines.
I remember the "Is the 10mm dead" articles back in the day when I read gun rags. If you read enough magazines they had that article on every caliber including 9mm. And no, sales figures are not an indicator of performance.
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Really not much of a debate anymore. 40s sales has fallen so far, they can't even stand up to the still hot-sellin' 9mms.
40s are only semi-fun to shoot, if the gun is heavy. 9mms are much easier to handle - much easier to hit the target square.
Sales are not usually an indicator.
I thought the 10mm was doomed but recently there has been a resurgence of the 10 with various gunmakers coming out with new 10mm pistols and especially 10mm carbines.
I remember the "Is the 10mm dead" articles back in the day when I read gun rags. If you read enough magazines they had that article on every caliber including 9mm. And no, sales figures are not an indicator of performance.
Triple_Se7en
$50 Site Donor 2024
Originally Posted by hatt
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Really not much of a debate anymore. 40s sales has fallen so far, they can't even stand up to the still hot-sellin' 9mms.
40s are only semi-fun to shoot, if the gun is heavy. 9mms are much easier to handle - much easier to hit the target square.
So you're saying sales figures determines effectiveness? Interesting!
Most of the non-police / military crowd want pistols and revolvers we can handle. Most young people today grew up with mama, not daddy. Most young adults today don't know how to properly use tools.... especially guns. So when they go to a gun range, they want to hit the middle of paper and no daddy there to teach them how to hit paper middle with 40s. Mom wants no guns in the house.
9mm offers best chance to hit middle of paper and 40s are harder to handle. Thus the 40 has slid south in sales, because daddy wasn't around to teach newbies with guns, how to use them.
Society today. 9mm is very effective and easier too handle. Word gets spread around and 9mm becomes a much better seller than 40s.
I am done with this. It's really easy to figure out.
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Really not much of a debate anymore. 40s sales has fallen so far, they can't even stand up to the still hot-sellin' 9mms.
40s are only semi-fun to shoot, if the gun is heavy. 9mms are much easier to handle - much easier to hit the target square.
So you're saying sales figures determines effectiveness? Interesting!
Most of the non-police / military crowd want pistols and revolvers we can handle. Most young people today grew up with mama, not daddy. Most young adults today don't know how to properly use tools.... especially guns. So when they go to a gun range, they want to hit the middle of paper and no daddy there to teach them how to hit paper middle with 40s. Mom wants no guns in the house.
9mm offers best chance to hit middle of paper and 40s are harder to handle. Thus the 40 has slid south in sales, because daddy wasn't around to teach newbies with guns, how to use them.
Society today. 9mm is very effective and easier too handle. Word gets spread around and 9mm becomes a much better seller than 40s.
I am done with this. It's really easy to figure out.
While the sales of "new" 40s are way, way down, there are still a ton of them out there in active use. The .40 cal is still in the top 5 for handgun ammo sales.
There is another advantage, when people start going crazy and hoarding ammo I was still able to easily find 40 caliber last time around. 9mm is one of the first to completely disappear (look at the site of your choice now for example).
Of course if you maintain reasonable stocks during the normal times that's all moot.
There is another advantage, when people start going crazy and hoarding ammo I was still able to easily find 40 caliber last time around. 9mm is one of the first to completely disappear (look at the site of your choice now for example).
Of course if you maintain reasonable stocks during the normal times that's all moot.
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Most of the non-police / military crowd want pistols and revolvers we can handle. Most young people today grew up with mama, not daddy. Most young adults today don't know how to properly use tools.... especially guns. So when they go to a gun range, they want to hit the middle of paper and no daddy there to teach them how to hit paper middle with 40s. Mom wants no guns in the house.
9mm offers best chance to hit middle of paper and 40s are harder to handle. Thus the 40 has slid south in sales, because daddy wasn't around to teach newbies with guns, how to use them.
Wow, just... wow.
You should have left it at '9mm is very effective and easier to handle' and been done with it.
Most of the non-police / military crowd want pistols and revolvers we can handle. Most young people today grew up with mama, not daddy. Most young adults today don't know how to properly use tools.... especially guns. So when they go to a gun range, they want to hit the middle of paper and no daddy there to teach them how to hit paper middle with 40s. Mom wants no guns in the house.
9mm offers best chance to hit middle of paper and 40s are harder to handle. Thus the 40 has slid south in sales, because daddy wasn't around to teach newbies with guns, how to use them.
Wow, just... wow.
You should have left it at '9mm is very effective and easier to handle' and been done with it.
My take on the caliber war is that ‘In choosing between 9mmP, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP they all are just about equally ineffective, given the same bullet technology.'
If you want an effective firearm cartridge start with a shotgun or rifle, and use good ammo there too.
Nobody carries pistols because they are particularly effective. We vary them because they are easier to carry than a rifle or shotgun.
BSW
If you want an effective firearm cartridge start with a shotgun or rifle, and use good ammo there too.
Nobody carries pistols because they are particularly effective. We vary them because they are easier to carry than a rifle or shotgun.
BSW
Originally Posted by bsmithwins
My take on the caliber war is that ‘In choosing between 9mmP, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP they all are just about equally ineffective, given the same bullet technology.'
If you want an effective firearm cartridge start with a shotgun or rifle, and use good ammo there too.
Nobody carries pistols because they are particularly effective. We vary them because they are easier to carry than a rifle or shotgun.
BSW
Great point. It's easy to forget that pistol calibers just punch holes and aren't great at stopping an attacker in his tracks.
My take on the caliber war is that ‘In choosing between 9mmP, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP they all are just about equally ineffective, given the same bullet technology.'
If you want an effective firearm cartridge start with a shotgun or rifle, and use good ammo there too.
Nobody carries pistols because they are particularly effective. We vary them because they are easier to carry than a rifle or shotgun.
BSW
Great point. It's easy to forget that pistol calibers just punch holes and aren't great at stopping an attacker in his tracks.
Originally Posted by john_pifer
Great point. It's easy to forget that pistol calibers just punch holes and aren't great at stopping an attacker in his tracks.
Pistols make holes and break bones when they hit them.
Rifles (with good bullets) destroy tissue and shatter bones (that then go on as secondary projectiles).
There is a step change in difference between pistols and rifles.
BSW
Great point. It's easy to forget that pistol calibers just punch holes and aren't great at stopping an attacker in his tracks.
Pistols make holes and break bones when they hit them.
Rifles (with good bullets) destroy tissue and shatter bones (that then go on as secondary projectiles).
There is a step change in difference between pistols and rifles.
BSW
Clint Smith - ""The only purpose for a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should've never laid down."
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted by bsmithwins
My take on the caliber war is that ‘In choosing between 9mmP, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP they all are just about equally ineffective, given the same bullet technology.'
If you want an effective firearm cartridge start with a shotgun or rifle, and use good ammo there too.
Nobody carries pistols because they are particularly effective. We vary them because they are easier to carry than a rifle or shotgun.
BSW
Which is why two of my of my favorite carbines are the Win. 45 Colt Lever Action and the HiPoint .40 Carbine.
My take on the caliber war is that ‘In choosing between 9mmP, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP they all are just about equally ineffective, given the same bullet technology.'
If you want an effective firearm cartridge start with a shotgun or rifle, and use good ammo there too.
Nobody carries pistols because they are particularly effective. We vary them because they are easier to carry than a rifle or shotgun.
BSW
Which is why two of my of my favorite carbines are the Win. 45 Colt Lever Action and the HiPoint .40 Carbine.
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Which is why two of my of my favorite carbines are the Win. 45 Colt Lever Action and the HiPoint .40 Carbine.
Pistol caliber carbines are a hoot, on a range.
For serious work though if I'm going to lug around a rifle size object I want a rifle caliber for effect and range.
BSW
Which is why two of my of my favorite carbines are the Win. 45 Colt Lever Action and the HiPoint .40 Carbine.
Pistol caliber carbines are a hoot, on a range.
For serious work though if I'm going to lug around a rifle size object I want a rifle caliber for effect and range.
BSW
In the days when your spare ammo was in a bandoleer or on your pistol belt, having common ammo between your rifle and pistol was advantageous...
Originally Posted by Astro14
In the days when your spare ammo was in a bandoleer or on your pistol belt, having common ammo between your rifle and pistol was advantageous...
When men were men and sheep were terrified...
The first cartridges were weak and had mediocre performance in pistols and rifles.
Modern rifle cartridges are much higher powered (higher pressures, produce more bolt thrust) than typical pistol cartridges, besides being larger than would be acceptable in a pistol.
At a local pistol match I shoot 9mmP in both a pistol and carbine. It's nice to only need to drag one type of ammo out with me. I also shoot the same type of carbine at a rifle match and the performance and capability difference when chambered in 556 is not even on the same level.
BSW
In the days when your spare ammo was in a bandoleer or on your pistol belt, having common ammo between your rifle and pistol was advantageous...
When men were men and sheep were terrified...
The first cartridges were weak and had mediocre performance in pistols and rifles.
Modern rifle cartridges are much higher powered (higher pressures, produce more bolt thrust) than typical pistol cartridges, besides being larger than would be acceptable in a pistol.
At a local pistol match I shoot 9mmP in both a pistol and carbine. It's nice to only need to drag one type of ammo out with me. I also shoot the same type of carbine at a rifle match and the performance and capability difference when chambered in 556 is not even on the same level.
BSW
Originally Posted by bsmithwins
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Which is why two of my of my favorite carbines are the Win. 45 Colt Lever Action and the HiPoint .40 Carbine.
Pistol caliber carbines are a hoot, on a range.
For serious work though if I'm going to lug around a rifle size object I want a rifle caliber for effect and range.
BSW
A magnum revolver caliber(or modern loaded .45 Colt/etc) is a powerful and capable weapon. A .357 carbine has 5.56 energy. I can't envision too many defensive where you're going to need to shoot past 150-200 yards so it's satisfactory there.
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Which is why two of my of my favorite carbines are the Win. 45 Colt Lever Action and the HiPoint .40 Carbine.
Pistol caliber carbines are a hoot, on a range.
For serious work though if I'm going to lug around a rifle size object I want a rifle caliber for effect and range.
BSW
A magnum revolver caliber(or modern loaded .45 Colt/etc) is a powerful and capable weapon. A .357 carbine has 5.56 energy. I can't envision too many defensive where you're going to need to shoot past 150-200 yards so it's satisfactory there.
Originally Posted by Astro14
In the days when your spare ammo was in a bandoleer or on your pistol belt, having common ammo between your rifle and pistol was advantageous...
Crossed bandoliers are part of the proper outfit when you have a Webley-Fosbery self-cocking automatic revolver. I won't post THAT picture.
In the days when your spare ammo was in a bandoleer or on your pistol belt, having common ammo between your rifle and pistol was advantageous...
Crossed bandoliers are part of the proper outfit when you have a Webley-Fosbery self-cocking automatic revolver. I won't post THAT picture.
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