My Top (3) GDI Oils

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Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Stay to the RIGHT Everyone
When Buster started this thread, I do not believe he had any intention of discussing light diesel oils / certs. I believe Buster only intended this thread, to be a discussion on gasoline-only oils inside GDI / TGDI engines.

Hence..... we are inside the BITOG Folder titled.... Passenger Car Motor Oil (PCMO) - Gasoline Vehicles .
Example: When we walk down the oil aisle at Walmart, diesel oils are on the left and gas oils are on the right. I think Buster wants to stay on the right-side of the Walmart aisle, even avoiding the left side where some diesel oils can be used in conjunction with gas engines.


Exactly! Thank you.
cheers3.gif
 
Gokhan : Which easy to find USA D1 / Gen 2 synthetic oils meet your statement (say , top two or three 5W30's) : "Your best bet is to find a mid-SAPS dexos1 Gen 2/Gen 3 oil from a top manufacturer who uses high-quality PAO and GTL base stocks. He was pointing out to the importance of the SA level and base-oil quality among other things, and I also mentioned the antioxidant content".[quote=Gokhan]You're not helping anyone here.

You don't want to use a full-SAPS MB 229.5 oil in a GDI/TGDI engine because of the IVD issue. The full-SAPS A3/B4 family is a somewhat obsolete oil spec, which is hardly used in the new cars.

VW 504.00 is suitable for GDI/TGDI engines. However, it's very hard to find and expensive in the US, and it doesn't help with the fuel economy. Moreover, it's not necessarily better for the intake valves than some common synthetic oils mentioned in this thread.

buster's thread is about oil selection in the US for GDI/TGDI engines. Your best bet is to find a mid-SAPS dexos1 Gen 2/Gen 3 oil from a top manufacturer who uses high-quality PAO and GTL base stocks. He was pointing out to the importance of the SA level and base-oil quality among other things, and I also mentioned the antioxidant content.

When edyvw jumped in and made a blanket statement about Euro oils, as he often does, it didn't help the thread or anyone who was looking for specific answers in the oil selection to combat the IVD issue in the latest GDI/TGDI engines.[/quote]
 
See my list ^^^^ Chris and choose from it. Just change it every 4K.

Wait on the new SP / GF6 / Gen 3 oil labels in May. I'm down to two jugs of the old certs - then on-to the new certs, which will be even stronger for TGDI / GDI engines

There's a new UOA on Mobil-1 AP 0w20 here at BITOG. Check it out. It may have the new oil certs in that UOA and the 5w30 coming in May may be really strong too.
 
Originally Posted by Gokhan
While it should be taken with a grain of salt, the Lubrizol relative-performance comparison tool provides some insight.

Lubrizol relative-performance comparison tool -- PCMO

I overlooked to include the Noack values for the newer MB specs: MB 229.5, 229.51, 229.52, 229.6, and 229.61 have 10% Noack. MB 226.51 and 229.71 have 11% Noack. MB 226.5 and 229.31 have 12% Noack. MB 229.3 has 13% Noack.

You can use the Lubrizol relative-performance comparison tool to see that the oxidation performance as well as deposits performance are clearly correlated with the Noack across the MB specs, as well as when you compare the MB specs to the BMW specs with 13% Noack. This is because the Noack is correlated with the base-oil quality, and oxidation and deposits are correlated with the base-oil quality.

MB 229.71 -- the only 0W-20 and 5W-20 MB grade -- has 11% Noack but the best performance of all MB specs, better than the MB specs with 10% Noack. This is because it's effectively 9% Noack when compared to other specs in terms of the base-oil quality, as the Noack increases for a given base-oil quality when the base oil gets thinner. I had already explained that you need to compare the Noack values for the same base-oil viscosity (in terms of the CCS performance); otherwise, you need to account for the thinner or thicker base oil, which results in higher or lower Noack, respectively, for the same base-oil quality.

Moral of the story: The Noack volatility for a given SAE xW cold range/base-oil viscosity is the primary performance indicator, as it defines how synthetic an oil is. The main difference between the Euro oils and the ILSAC oils is the minimum requirements for the base-oil quality. Some brand-name ILSAC oils sold in the US have excellent base-oil quality and they are not inferior to oils with Euro specs, if not superior. As an example I wouldn't hesitate to use the fully PAO-and-AN-based Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 or Mobil 1 AP 0W-20, in fact even the half-PAO-based M1 AFE 0W-20, in an engine that specs MB 229.71 or some other Euro 0W-20 OEM spec, which typically utilize inferior Group III+ base oils, as long as there is no warranty concern. Likewise a high-quality GM dexos1 oil is not inferior to a Euro oil in the HTHS ~ 3.0 cP range, and a high-quality GM dexos2 oil is not inferior to top Euro standards such as Porsche C30 or VW 504.00 -- in fact these oils usually have all these specs simultaneously.

We know Lubrizol relative performance test, but I have a feeling you just discovered it.
 
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by edyvw
That is the most ridiculous statement.
VW, BMW< MB etc. have various other specific emphasis not only Noack. BMW LL specs. are very stringent when it comes to oxidation, while MB is focused on Noack and deposits. All these specs. have much higher emphasis on wear than anything ILSAC or API. Also, European 0W20 oils have wear test on par with oils with HTHS 3.5 and higher.

If you don't understand the point made, it sounds ridiculous.

I didn't rate the entire specs. I rated the Noack, and that was for an important reason. Of course, there are a lot of tests in each spec. However, you don't understand the function the Noack plays through the base-oil quality. The retired oil blender SonofJoe once said here that the Noack is the single most important property when blending oil to achieve a desired performance level. Oil oxidation, oil life, and deposit forming are all related to base-oil quality, which is in turn related to the Noack. When you improve the Noack for a given cold SAE range (a given CCS value), you improve all these things. There is only so much you can do with the additive package as there is no magic ingredient and they already use the state-of-the-art technology. The rest of the improvement comes through the base-oil quality, which is dictated by the Noack spec (for a given CCS).

You don't understand wear either. HTHS is hardly related to wear as long as it is above a minimum for a given bearing clearance. What affects wear is the base-oil viscosity. You're right that 0W-20 (ACEA C5 and C6) wear standards are the same as for ACEA C3 (HTHS ⥠3.5 cP). However, this is the same thing for ILSAC/API -- wear standards are the same for all SAE viscosity grades.

Regarding the MB specs, you're wrong. MB is probably the most strict Euro oil spec, with countless oxidation and wear tests. MB specs have far more tests than the BMW LL specs. See the Afton Specification Handbook -- September 2019 Edition.

This is the most important thing of an approval, any approval. Final result is what matters.
You as usual turned this into gibberish that you like to hear when you read your own post.
How good oil is depends on final product not one or two variables.
I know what MB specs are. I worked on oil testing that had to meet VW 504.00/507.00, MB, BMW etc specs. Your argument about Noack is relevant as snow that fell last year. It is just one part of an equation. What manufacturer comes out later with is what matters, and only that.
 
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I have a 2019 Mazda CX 5 with the 2.5 liter, GDI Turbo engine. I plan on doing 5000 mile OCI's with Castrol 5W-30 Edge Full Synthetic (US). I based this on the manufacturer's claims that this formula is designed for GDI Turbo engines. It is API SN Plus and GM DEXOS1 Gen. 2 rated and their data sheet says the Noack Volatility is 10.0. All that sounds pretty good to me so far.

I read all of the previous posts and tried to absorb all the arguments for the different oils available. Have I made the best choice or is there something else I should consider ?
 
I'm not sure why some folks are pushing this post in an unnecessary direction. Let's stay on topic here. This is about the best choice for GDI engines knowing what we know NOW.

With that said, based on the Afton Study Gokhan shared we know the following:

1. Base oil quality
2. Sulfated Ash level
3. Noack

When looking for an oil that will only help reduce intake valve deposits you want to consider those 3 things, with the first 2 being of most importance.

I've based my oil decision on those 3 things and have found that:

Mobil 1 AP/EP, Vavoline and Driven are the top 3. See my first post. Driven doesn't officially meet any API specs but is arguably the best of the bunch.

I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about all this.


*Dwight, the only thing about the Castrol oil I don't like is the SA level of 1.0. Mobil 1 is .8.

Keep in mind there are always tradeoffs with formulations. This is strictly focused on GDI ENGINES.
 
Gokhan, what are your thoughts on the Thin Film Oxidation test as it relates to IVD's? This shows oxidation resistance, which is what you're looking for.

[Linked Image]

"The Mobilâ„¢ Thin Film Oxidation Test involves preheating the metal surface and the oil to high temperatures, and then continuously spraying the oil onto the metal surface. This test measures the oil's ability to demonstrate varnish control within the high-temperature turbocharger environment. Oils with poor thermal stability will decompose, leaving behind a residue on the metal. Residue build-up could cause the temperatures inside the turbo to increase, eventually blocking oil passages and resulting in turbo failure. "
 
Originally Posted by Dwight_Frye
I have a 2019 Mazda CX 5 with the 2.5 liter, GDI Turbo engine. I plan on doing 5000 mile OCI's with Castrol 5W-30 Edge Full Synthetic (US). I based this on the manufacturer's claims that this formula is designed for GDI Turbo engines. It is API SN Plus and GM DEXOS1 Gen. 2 rated and their data sheet says the Noack Volatility is 10.0. All that sounds pretty good to me so far.

I read all of the previous posts and tried to absorb all the arguments for the different oils available. Have I made the best choice or is there something else I should consider ?


Dwight
All the oil bottlers are focusing their formulas / recipes at TGDI / GDI. Castrol Edge & Magantec is not high on my list anymore. Their base oils are just not upper-tier.
I ran Edge in my new Hyundai. Sounds quieter and the dipstick no longer stays clear, using either Valvoline Advanced or Pennzoil Ultra Platinum.

If an oil that's run hard and long stays clear on the dipstick, something's wrong. If the oil produces varnish (any of my Castrol since 1989)..... something's wrong.
 
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Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
Originally Posted by Gokhan
No, the terms low-SAPS (SA ⤠0.5%) and mid-SAPS (SA ⤠0.8%) are often used incorrectly in the industry. C3 is a mid-SAPS category, and the SA for C3 is between 0.6% and 0,8%. Otherwise, it would have to be C4 (low-SAPS, SA ⤠0.5%) or both C3 and C4 at the same time. However, according to the PDS, it isn't. Therefore, it's mid-SAPS, with 0.6% ⤠SA ⤠0.8%.
Thanks for this. What is C2 then?

A1/B1: removed in 2016
A3/B3: to be removed in 2020
A5/B5: to be removed in 2020

A3/B4: full-SAPS, 1.0% ⤠SA ⤠1.6%, HTHS ⥠3.5 cP
A7/B7: to be introduced in 2020, full-SAPS, SA ⤠1.6%, 3.5 cP ⥠HTHS ⥠2.9 cP, LSPI, chain-wear, and turbocharger-deposits tests

C1: to be removed in 2020 because only one OEM specs it, low-SAPS, SA ⤠0.5%, HTHS ⥠2.9 cP
C2: mid-SAPS, SA ⤠0.8%, HTHS ⥠2.9 cP
C3: mid-SAPS, SA ⤠0.8%, HTHS ⥠3.5 cP
C4: low-SAPS, SA ⤠0.5%, HTHS ⥠3.5 cP
C5: mid-SAPS, SA ⤠0.8%, 2.8 cP ⥠HTHS ⥠2.6 cP
C6: upgrades C5 in 2020, mid-SAPS, SA ⤠0.8%, 2.8 cP ⥠HTHS ⥠2.6 cP, LSPI, chain-wear, and turbocharger-deposits tests

An oil can be certified for both C2 and C3 at the same time if it satisfies the stricter fuel-economy limits of C2 and has HTHS ⥠3.5 cP.

Also note that ILSAC oils such as Mobil 1 and Pennzoil Platinum that claim to be full-SAPS A5/B5 (or A7/B7) are often mid-SAPS, not full-SAPS, but since there is no lower SAPS limit in this spec, they can be certified for A5/B5 (or A7/B7).


Thank you for posting that. Very interesting that Mobil 0w-30 is C3, but Pennzoil Platnium Euro LX 0w-30 is c2/c3. How does it get the fuel economy limits of C2 while having the same HTHS and viscosity of Mobil ESP 0W-30?
 
Originally Posted by edyvw
This is the most important thing of an approval, any approval. Final result is what matters.
You as usual turned this into gibberish that you like to hear when you read your own post.
How good oil is depends on final product not one or two variables.
I know what MB specs are. I worked on oil testing that had to meet VW 504.00/507.00, MB, BMW etc specs. Your argument about Noack is relevant as snow that fell last year. It is just one part of an equation. What manufacturer comes out later with is what matters, and only that.

Nevermind. It's gibberish to you because you don't bother to try to understand it.

Originally Posted by edyvw
We know Lubrizol relative performance test, but I have a feeling you just discovered it.

No, I also referenced it in the past.
 
Valvoline Advanced 5W30 (lower VII's but higher ash)
M1 5W30 (higher VII's but lower ash)
PP 5W30 (higher VII's , lower ash , oxidation is higher than above two)

*Gokhan pick my GDI oil for me (lol !) … I have all three oils in my stash - I won't be buying any more oils until the new SP spec comes out in May and we learn more about these new formulations !
 
Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
Thank you for posting that. Very interesting that Mobil 0w-30 is C3, but Pennzoil Platnium Euro LX 0w-30 is c2/c3. How does it get the fuel economy limits of C2 while having the same HTHS and viscosity of Mobil ESP 0W-30?

You're welcome!

Actually, according to the data sheets, Mobil 1 ESP X1 0W-30 and Mobil 1 ESP 0W30 are also both ACEA C2 and ACEA C3.

The relevant fuel-economy test is ACEA M-111/CEC L-54-96. The passing limit is 2.5% or higher improvement in fuel economy over the reference oil for ACEA C2 and 1.0% or higher for ACEA C3.

The data sheet for Pennzoil Euro LX 0W-30 ACEA C2/C3 says: Up to 2.6% greater fuel economy based on ACEA M111 fuel-economy results vs. the industry reference oil using SAE 0W-30. Therefore, it marginally passes the ACEA C2 fuel-economy test! An oil that is certified for only ACEA C2 would probably do a lot better, perhaps around 4%.
 
Originally Posted by buster
I'm not sure why some folks are pushing this post in an unnecessary direction. Let's stay on topic here. This is about the best choice for GDI engines knowing what we know NOW.

With that said, based on the Afton Study Gokhan shared we know the following:

1. Base oil quality
2. Sulfated Ash level
3. Noack

When looking for an oil that will only help reduce intake valve deposits you want to consider those 3 things, with the first 2 being of most importance.

I've based my oil decision on those 3 things and have found that:

Mobil 1 AP/EP, Vavoline and Driven are the top 3. See my first post. Driven doesn't officially meet any API specs but is arguably the best of the bunch.

I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about all this.


*Dwight, the only thing about the Castrol oil I don't like is the SA level of 1.0. Mobil 1 is .8.

Keep in mind there are always tradeoffs with formulations. This is strictly focused on GDI ENGINES.




I do agree with this buster ^^^^^^^

And I also agree with Gokhan on his presentation of ideas here to a very large degree.

And your starting list.... Would be my list has well... You hit that on the money in my opinion.
 
Originally Posted by ChrisD46
Valvoline Advanced 5W30 (lower VII's but higher ash)
M1 5W30 (higher VII's but lower ash)
PP 5W30 (higher VII's , lower ash , oxidation is higher than above two)

*Gokhan pick my GDI oil for me (lol !) … I have all three oils in my stash - I won't be buying any more oils until the new SP spec comes out in May and we learn more about these new formulations !

LOL. I don't want to be responsible for anybody's life choices.
lol.gif


They are all good oils. Don't you have to use all of them anyway? Some internal Mobil 1 data someone here sent me showed that the Mobil 1 is far superior to the old PP and the new PPPP in the oxidation test (a much longer time until the oxidation starts), and the new GTL-based PPPP hasn't improved over the old PP in oxidation resistance. Do I believe it? I don't know. I think you would be fine with any of these oils.
 
Originally Posted by buster
Gokhan, what are your thoughts on the Thin Film Oxidation test as it relates to IVD's? This shows oxidation resistance, which is what you're looking for.

[Linked Image]

"The Mobilâ„¢ Thin Film Oxidation Test involves preheating the metal surface and the oil to high temperatures, and then continuously spraying the oil onto the metal surface. This test measures the oil's ability to demonstrate varnish control within the high-temperature turbocharger environment. Oils with poor thermal stability will decompose, leaving behind a residue on the metal. Residue build-up could cause the temperatures inside the turbo to increase, eventually blocking oil passages and resulting in turbo failure. "

Hi buster,

I think the thin-film oxidation test directly correlates with the base-oil quality. The PAO-based M1 0W-40 SM did better in that test than the Group-III+-Visom-based M1 0W-40 SN (old formula).

Mobil 1 PAO - Group III+ transition presentation
 
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
Thank you for posting that. Very interesting that Mobil 0w-30 is C3, but Pennzoil Platnium Euro LX 0w-30 is c2/c3. How does it get the fuel economy limits of C2 while having the same HTHS and viscosity of Mobil ESP 0W-30?

You're welcome!

Actually, according to the data sheets, Mobil 1 ESP X1 0W-30 and Mobil 1 ESP 0W30 are also both ACEA C2 and ACEA C3.

The relevant fuel-economy test is ACEA M-111/CEC L-54-96. The passing limit is 2.5% or higher improvement in fuel economy over the reference oil for ACEA C2 and 1.0% or higher for ACEA C3.

The data sheet for Pennzoil Euro LX 0W-30 ACEA C2/C3 says: Up to 2.6% greater fuel economy based on ACEA M111 fuel-economy results vs. the industry reference oil using SAE 0W-30. Therefore, it marginally passes the ACEA C2 fuel-economy test! An oil that is certified for only ACEA C2 would probably do a lot better, perhaps around 4%.


What's the difference between Mobil 1 ESP X1 0w-30 vs Mobil 1 ESP 0w-30?
 
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by edyvw
This is the most important thing of an approval, any approval. Final result is what matters.
You as usual turned this into gibberish that you like to hear when you read your own post.
How good oil is depends on final product not one or two variables.
I know what MB specs are. I worked on oil testing that had to meet VW 504.00/507.00, MB, BMW etc specs. Your argument about Noack is relevant as snow that fell last year. It is just one part of an equation. What manufacturer comes out later with is what matters, and only that.

Nevermind. It's gibberish to you because you don't bother to try to understand it.

Originally Posted by edyvw
We know Lubrizol relative performance test, but I have a feeling you just discovered it.

No, I also referenced it in the past.

I understand that very well. It is that only recently you discovered Euro oils, so you are on the roll.
 
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
Thank you for posting that. Very interesting that Mobil 0w-30 is C3, but Pennzoil Platnium Euro LX 0w-30 is c2/c3. How does it get the fuel economy limits of C2 while having the same HTHS and viscosity of Mobil ESP 0W-30?

You're welcome!

Actually, according to the data sheets, Mobil 1 ESP X1 0W-30 and Mobil 1 ESP 0W30 are also both ACEA C2 and ACEA C3.

The relevant fuel-economy test is ACEA M-111/CEC L-54-96. The passing limit is 2.5% or higher improvement in fuel economy over the reference oil for ACEA C2 and 1.0% or higher for ACEA C3.

The data sheet for Pennzoil Euro LX 0W-30 ACEA C2/C3 says: Up to 2.6% greater fuel economy based on ACEA M111 fuel-economy results vs. the industry reference oil using SAE 0W-30. Therefore, it marginally passes the ACEA C2 fuel-economy test! An oil that is certified for only ACEA C2 would probably do a lot better, perhaps around 4%.

Yes, Mobil1 ESP 5W30 in VISOM version and now GTL version is C2 and C3, for like more than 10 years.
 
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