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Re: My Top (3) GDI Oils [Re: edyvw] #5385097 03/25/20 06:35 AM
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Gokhan Offline
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Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by buster
Sticking with 0w20:

Readily available:
1. Mobil 1 EP/AP 0w20 - majority PAO/AN - SA .8 - Noack 10%
2. Valvoline Modern Engine - Unknown base oil/SA- Noack 10% (likely low SA based on VOA)
3. Vavoline Full Syn - Unknown base oil - SA .97 - Noack 7.6%


Boutique:
Driven DI 0w20 - mPAO - SA .72 - Noack 11%
If you are going to talk about top oils, you have to venture into European approved oils. ILSAC GF-5 oils or API SN are not in the same category.

Let's avoid blanket statements here, which don't help anyone. Sure, if we compare the European oils, which are practically all Group III or higher, to the conventional Group II/II+ ILSAC/API oils, it's apples vs. oranges, for the same reason it's apples vs. oranges to compare a conventional ILSAC/API oil to a synthetic ILSAC/API oil.

However, in the US there is at least one spec that requires synthetic oil -- GM dexos.

At the end it all boils down to the base-oil quality, which is loosely related to the Noack, loosely because you can only relate it to the base-oil quality if the cold viscosity (CCS) is the same for the comparison oils, which is roughly the case when comparing in the same SAE xW range but not otherwise.

This the summary of the relative quality of various specs. However, keep in mind that it's not only about the oil quality but also the application requirements, such as the HTHS, LSPI protection, IVD reduction, etc.

Noack specs (the lower the Noack, the stricter the oil spec)

MB 229.5, 229.51: 10%
Generic ACEA C4 (true low-SAPS (SA ≤ 0.5%)): 11%
RN 0720: 11%
VW 504.00, 507.00: 11%
MB 229.31: 12%
RN 0710: 12%
GM dexos1 Gen 3: 12.5%
GM dexos1 Gen 2, GM dexos2: 13%
All other European OEM: 13%
All other generic ACEA: 13%
Generic ILSAC/API: 15%

VW 504.00 is the only spec that tests for the IVD. However, it's a thick oil (HTHS ≥ 3.5 cP) and therefore not for better fuel economy.

Generic ILSAC/API is the only spec that allows conventional Group II/II+ oil.


2020 Toyota Prius Prime XLE plug-in hybrid, 2ZR-FXE engine, ~ 65 mpg on regular gasoline, ~ 5,000 mi
TGMO 0W-16 SN/RC Japan
OEM spin-on oil filter Japan
Re: My Top (3) GDI Oils [Re: Gokhan] #5385098 03/25/20 06:35 AM
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pbm Offline
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Originally Posted by Gokhan
[quote=pbm]Gokhan:
What are your thoughts on the Mobil1 AP 5w20 in my GDI Focus 2.0?....I scored a bunch of it at last years AZ 'Clearance'.
I know form your post last year that it's a majority GIII unlike it's 0w20 brethren. I believe the GDI is harder on oil than the PI 2.5 version in my Escape based on how quickly the GDI turns the oil dark (soot, I think). Would I be better off doing shorter 5K OCIs on synblends, or even 7K on Supertech syn., than 10K on more expensive syns in this GDI engine? Thanks


M1 AP 5W-20 (or any other M1 AP) is certainly a good oil. It has extra antioxidant content for a longer OCI, which is also good to combat the IVD by reducing the oil oxidation. It still has quite a bit PAO.

I wouldn't run a conventional or a synthetic blend oil in a GDI engine because of the IVD issue. Even though it's a Ford, run a GM dexos1 Gen 2/Gen 3 oil. Conventional oil will oxidize and build carbon deposits faster on the intake valves than synthetic oil.


Thanks for that G.....would you shorten the OCI in a GDI or go the full 10K?


'Journalism is Dead'
Re: My Top (3) GDI Oils [Re: pbm] #5385101 03/25/20 06:43 AM
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Gokhan Offline
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Originally Posted by pbm
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Gokhan:
What are your thoughts on the Mobil1 AP 5w20 in my GDI Focus 2.0?....I scored a bunch of it at last years AZ 'Clearance'.
I know form your post last year that it's a majority GIII unlike it's 0w20 brethren. I believe the GDI is harder on oil than the PI 2.5 version in my Escape based on how quickly the GDI turns the oil dark (soot, I think). Would I be better off doing shorter 5K OCIs on synblends, or even 7K on Supertech syn., than 10K on more expensive syns in this GDI engine? Thanks


M1 AP 5W-20 (or any other M1 AP) is certainly a good oil. It has extra antioxidant content for a longer OCI, which is also good to combat the IVD by reducing the oil oxidation. It still has quite a bit PAO.

I wouldn't run a conventional or a synthetic blend oil in a GDI engine because of the IVD issue. Even though it's a Ford, run a GM dexos1 Gen 2/Gen 3 oil. Conventional oil will oxidize and build carbon deposits faster on the intake valves than synthetic oil.
Thanks for that G.....would you shorten the OCI in a GDI or go the full 10K?

I would use a synthetic oil and do at least the recommended OCI. If I use a top synthetic such as the M1 EP or M1 AP, I would then run a little longer than the recommended OCI if I needed it.


2020 Toyota Prius Prime XLE plug-in hybrid, 2ZR-FXE engine, ~ 65 mpg on regular gasoline, ~ 5,000 mi
TGMO 0W-16 SN/RC Japan
OEM spin-on oil filter Japan
Re: My Top (3) GDI Oils [Re: buster] #5385127 03/25/20 07:19 AM
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buster Offline OP
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Good information Gokhan. cheers

The one outlier here is Valvoline Modern Engine. I'm wonder what type of proprietary detergent they are banking on to make a difference? We know base oil quality and SA levels are the two most important elements at helping to control IVD's. What about detergents and dispersant type?

Re: My Top (3) GDI Oils [Re: Gokhan] #5385134 03/25/20 07:25 AM
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bbhero Offline
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But... Edyvw was right though.... Look at your list in terms of "tougher" specs..


Nissan Altima 3.5 Coupe
Cam2 Full synthetic 5w30 Carquest Blue 84356
"Treat your family like your friends and treat your friends like your family."
Re: My Top (3) GDI Oils [Re: buster] #5385199 03/25/20 08:35 AM
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These must be some small and light duty GTDI engines to run xW-20.

Re: My Top (3) GDI Oils [Re: buster] #5385226 03/25/20 09:00 AM
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buster Offline OP
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If anyone is interested, here is what I consider the ultimate 0w20 for a GDI engine from Drive Oil (USA).

PARAMETER TEST METHOD VALUE

HT/HS ASTM D4683 - 2.9
TEOST ASTM D7097 - 15.2
Viscosity at 40°C. cSt ASTM D445 - 69.6
Viscosity at 100°C, cSt ASTM D445 - 8.6
Viscosity Index ASTM D2270- 161
Ash Content ASTM D874 - .72

Re: My Top (3) GDI Oils [Re: metroplex] #5385262 03/25/20 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by metroplex
These must be some small and light duty GTDI engines to run xW-20.





No.


2017 Mazda CX5
Mobil 1 Annual Protection 0w20
Roki OEM filter.
Re: My Top (3) GDI Oils [Re: metroplex] #5385266 03/25/20 09:57 AM
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Olas Offline
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Originally Posted by metroplex
These must be some small and light duty GTDI engines to run xW-20.


in cold areas they nearly all use 0w20 regardless of carb/tbi/pfi/gdi. Oil selection is based on viscosity, not fuel delivery strategies.

Re: My Top (3) GDI Oils [Re: buster] #5385423 03/25/20 12:46 PM
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loneryder Offline
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Why do the HM oils have much less PAO??

Re: My Top (3) GDI Oils [Re: loneryder] #5385451 03/25/20 01:23 PM
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aquariuscsm Offline
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Originally Posted by loneryder
Why do the HM oils have much less PAO??


From what I understand,all M1 oils from 5W20-15W50 are group 3 Visom base. I wonder if their 0W50 racing oil is a group 3 or 4?


1996 Nissan 300ZX 5-speed,Arctic Pearl(#175 of 300)
Quaker State Ultimate Durability 10W30
2012 Honda Accord Coupe EX-L 2.4,auto,San Marino Red
Pennzoil Platinum High Mileage 10W30

Re: My Top (3) GDI Oils [Re: aquariuscsm] #5385529 03/25/20 03:31 PM
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Gokhan Offline
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Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
Originally Posted by loneryder
Why do the HM oils have much less PAO??
From what I understand,all M1 oils from 5W20-15W50 are group 3 Visom base. I wonder if their 0W50 racing oil is a group 3 or 4?

The Group III+ Visom base stock, ExxonMobil's own product made in UK, came around to replace Group IV PAO ten years ago when Mobil 1 transitioned from API SM to API SN in October 2010. Later they changed the formulations again, with Group III+ Visom replaced by GTL and other non-Visom Group III/III+ base stocks. I don't know if they still make Visom -- production may have stopped.

See the MSDSs for base-oil information.

  • 1-decene is PAO.
  • C18 - 50 distillates (CAS # 848301-69-9) is GTL.
  • The base oil is about 75 - 85% of the oil. Non-FS and non-ESP Mobil 1 oils use some Group V AN (alkylated naphthalene) in the base oil. FS and ESP 1 Mobil oils use 5 - 7% POE in the base oil. Neither is shown in the MSDSs. Group III/III+ makes up the remaining balance of the Mobil 1 base oils. It is sometimes shown but not always.


https://www.msds.exxonmobil.com/


2020 Toyota Prius Prime XLE plug-in hybrid, 2ZR-FXE engine, ~ 65 mpg on regular gasoline, ~ 5,000 mi
TGMO 0W-16 SN/RC Japan
OEM spin-on oil filter Japan
Re: My Top (3) GDI Oils [Re: bbhero] #5385547 03/25/20 03:49 PM
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Gokhan Offline
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Originally Posted by bbhero
But... Edyvw was right though.... Look at your list in terms of "tougher" specs..

No, because Noack alone does not help you determine the base-oil type without knowing the base-oil viscosity.

For example take MB 229.5. While it has the toughest Noack spec -- 10% -- it can still be made and is still made from Group III. I bet what is inside those expensive bottles of the Mercedes - Benz Genuine Engine Oil is nothing but plain Group III.

The Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 is mostly GTL (about 3/4 GTL, 1/4 PAO) now, and it satisfies MB 229.5.

However, the Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 and Mobil 1 Annual Protection 0W-20 (and also the Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0W-16) are fully PAO-based. Therefore, they are simply better oils in terms of resistance to oxidation, which is what these OEM specs are about, and which is what is important when you look at the IVD issue in GDI/TGDI engines, not to mention the turbocharger deposits. They are also a lot more expensive to make, as PAO costs perhaps twice as much as GTL.

OEM specs only ensure a minimum quality standard, just like ILSAC/API does. Results still vary greatly from oil to oil, and an oil subject to lower OEM standards could be of higher quality than an oil subjected higher OEM standards, depending on who makes it.


2020 Toyota Prius Prime XLE plug-in hybrid, 2ZR-FXE engine, ~ 65 mpg on regular gasoline, ~ 5,000 mi
TGMO 0W-16 SN/RC Japan
OEM spin-on oil filter Japan
Re: My Top (3) GDI Oils [Re: Gokhan] #5385554 03/25/20 03:55 PM
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bbhero Offline
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No.... Edyvw was right....



MB 229.5 is way tougher than API SN plus...

Dexos1 Gen 2 is a good bit tougher than API...


You ain't making Dexos Gen 2 with all group II ..

And you surely ain't making MB 229.5 with group II.....




Last edited by bbhero; 03/25/20 03:59 PM.

Nissan Altima 3.5 Coupe
Cam2 Full synthetic 5w30 Carquest Blue 84356
"Treat your family like your friends and treat your friends like your family."
Re: My Top (3) GDI Oils [Re: bbhero] #5385560 03/25/20 04:06 PM
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Gokhan Offline
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Originally Posted by bbhero
No.... Edyvw was right....

Get over it.....

MB 229.5 is way tougher than API SN plus...

You don't even read and try to understand posts. No one said MB 229.5 wasn't tougher than generic API SN PLUS. There are a lot more specs on the bottle of an ILSAC Mobil 1 than API SN PLUS. For example the Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 carries both MB 229.5 and API SN PLUS, and the lower-viscosity Mobil 1 oils that cannot carry the MB 229.5 spec simply because of the lower viscosity are still of the same as or even of higher quality than the Mobil 1 FS 0W-40. Moreover, oils can still vary greatly in quality even if they have the same approval.


2020 Toyota Prius Prime XLE plug-in hybrid, 2ZR-FXE engine, ~ 65 mpg on regular gasoline, ~ 5,000 mi
TGMO 0W-16 SN/RC Japan
OEM spin-on oil filter Japan
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