AC current in the DC

Good info @Virtus_Probi.

I've read that if your battery is low or dead (for example left the lights on), and you have to jump the car ... you can damage the diodes because the battery will initially be drawing too much current to charge up (vs. a charged/good battery). So best is to charge the dead battery if you can vs. a jump start.

I've never heard from anyone I know or had a case of this diode damage but haven't had too many jump starts either. You would think alternator or somewhere (via a fuse?), there would be a current limit. Hypothetically speaking wouldn't a super dead battery look like a temporary short. Is there a protection if the alternator load (battery) is shorted?
 
Diode damage is a real thing.
A dead battery can draw a lot of current.
Re current limiting, a fuse would be an undesirable way to do it since you'd then have to deal with a blown fuse in the field.
In newer cars with a "smart" system current could be sensed and limited.
Otherwise, if you don't rev the engine above idle speed the alternator output is somewhat limited.
So idle for a few minutes after a jump to let the battery charge and taper off current a bit.
 
good advice!

btw, this reminded me that some (if not all?) jump start instructions recommend leaving the good car running for a while or a few minutes to charge up the dead battery before starting the dead car ... I am thinking maybe even more potential damage to the good car than the dead car! Most rev up the good car for a while before the other guy starts the dead car. During this time the good car must be providing high amounts of current. not sure how the good battery comes into equation. Is it flattening the demanded current curve?
 
I know what you are talking about, an electrical engineer I'm friends with likes to describe it as "generation signal byproducts"
 
Originally Posted by circuitsmith
Diode damage is a real thing.
A dead battery can draw a lot of current.
Re current limiting, a fuse would be an undesirable way to do it since you'd then have to deal with a blown fuse in the field.
In newer cars with a "smart" system current could be sensed and limited.
Otherwise, if you don't rev the engine above idle speed the alternator output is somewhat limited.
So idle for a few minutes after a jump to let the battery charge and taper off current a bit.



Curiosity question...

Can having a strong battery "help" keep a alternator in better working order for a longer period of time ?
 
An alternator in good condition will limit the current output.

It's heat that usually kills diodes, not overcurrent.
 
The Voltage regulator sends a field current to one of the alternators brushes, the other is grounded. It sends enough current to that one brush in order to achieve and maintain a certain voltage. More loads, of which a depleted battery can be a huge load, more field current is sent. If more field current is sent than required to maintain a certain voltage, then voltage increases, and in general 15 volts is as high as a lead acid battery should be taken.

Lower engine rpm, more field current is sent, I've seen my field current go as high as 8.2 amps when maxing out the alternator at low rpm and making about 60 amps and 8.2 amps of field current over 2200 engine rpm can make 120 amps, on my alternator.
Lower engine rpm, means lower alternator fan speed
lower alternator fan speed means hotter alternator.
Low vehicle speed means less underhood airflow, which means hotter alternator
Heat fries things.

The voltage regulator is inside of many alternators, but many vehicles also have it i instead, nside the engine computer.

When a battery is depleted below 80% state of charge, and still healthy, it might settle to about 15 amps of load when the voltage regulator is seeking 13.6v, but if the voltage regulator is seeking 14.7v, then this same battery at same state of charge will accept double to triple that amperage, causing the alternator to work much harder and get significantly hotter, in order to seek and perhaps maintain that higher voltage.

Voltage regulation of alternators varies widely among different vehicles and it changes as the engine and alternator heat up, and with time. So many people take a reading right after starting their engine and think that is the voltage always sought and held by the voltage regulator. In most cases it is NOT.

Many people also believe their dashboard voltage gauge. This is unwise, but if the manufacturers had it reveal the true varying voltage, the reals the owner would freak out and demand waranty service, as most understand none of how charging systems work and what they are capable of, or more accurately, what they are not capable of..

As a battery reaches 80% charged it starts requiring less and less amperage to be brought to and held at a certain voltage. The closer to 100% it gets the slower it charges. Lower voltage increases this charging time and 13.6v might never get an older battery to full charge.

Ideally the battery always wants to be fully 100% charged, and cool. It takes a long time to actually achieve this. 80% to 100% cant be accomplished in less than 3.5 hours, assuming mid 14's is held at the battery terminals that whole time, and that the battery is still healthy. if voltage is lower, sub 14.1v, or the battery less than healthy, achieving true full charge from 80% can take significantly, exponentially longer, and in some cases will not occur without even more electrical pressure (voltage) held for even longer. a healthy battery discharged to 30% will still easily start a cold engine above 40F. most people act like: it starts therefore it is fully charged, and still going strong, despite being completely ignorant of the battery state of charge or state of health.

Verifying a true full charge is something almost no one ever does, but achieving it can yield huge battery longevity gains. Those gains are more pronounced the deeper the battery is regularly discharged, the more is asked of it.

Starting a modern fuel injected gas engine uses a very tiny percentage of the battery's capacity. It is the loads, their size and duration, on the battery which remain on after the engine shuts off which determines how low the average state of charge is. The vehicle's charging system is NOT designed to quickly and fully charge the battery, it is designed to never overcharge it. The same can be said of most 'Smart ' Chargers too.

I know this is not popular information and contradicts what most people firmly believe, but if one has a voltmeter and ammeter and a hydrometer and a charging source capable of holding mid 14 volts, one will see that the battery their charging source said is full, is not. Most stop in the 92 to 95% charged range on a battery in the middle of its expected life, higher earlier in its life and significantly lower than that nearer the end of its life and while the engine will still easily start, getting a battery to 98% charged is only half as good as a true 100% charge, even if it is destined to be back at 98% the next day. Its like a balloon you have to keep stretching to near its bursting point regularly, or it will highly unlikely to be able to approach that maximum size again, and develop small leaks when it does get near that.

But ignorance is bliss and people will always believe the sticker on the battery has more effect on its longevity, as opposed to how it was cared for by the vehicle's charging system, and the owner's usage of it. Worst thing once can do is discharge a LEad acid battery, and let it sit in a warm environment. The lower its average state of charge the less lifespan it will have and no magically marketed bell and whistle charging source is going to return it to its brand new fully charged capacity, the best it can hope to do is achieve charging it to its maximum remaining potential capacity. which can be very far apart.

Often State of charge is uncontrollable, and batteries are just rented anyway and not a budget destroying expense for most anyway. But imagine if the shelves were empty when it becomes time to replace. Not too hard to imagine these days......., compared to a few weeks ago.

However the maintenance minded Bitoger who stresses their oil choice, is wise to do what they can to keep their battery at as high a state of charge as they and their charging sources can achieve, often.

I cycle the snot out of Lead acid batteries and max out my alternator often. I can spin a dial on my dashboard, and change the voltage and watch the ammeter respond as well as the temperature sensors on my battery and alternator change as well. The mystery is now gone, but I recall when it still was one, and its obvious to see to whom it is still a mystery.

In regards to a healthier battery keeping an alternator healthier, it is unlikely.

A new healthy battery, if well depleted, will ask much more of an alternator, than will an older battery will if equally depleted.
Heat is cumulatively damaging so a new depleted battery will load the alternator harder than an older one of equal or even more depleted.

At the end of a battery's life, the amperage required to maintain the same voltage when near full charge, does increase, but not by such a huge amount that it will shorten the life of the alternator.

While I have no experience charging a battery with a depleted cell, and do not know how much amperage that shorted cell will eat up, My previous AGM battery when new, amps would taper to 0.0x at almost any voltage when it was truly fully charged, but a week before it became too weak to barely start my warm engine in mild ambi8ent temps when fully charged, it would require about 6.2 amps in order to maintain 14.7 volts. Now if I left this fully charged end of life battery charging at 14.7v, it would start heating and go as high as 11 amps. I've witnessed the same pattern on starting flooded batteries and flooded marine batteries too, at the end of their life they require more amperage to be held at the same voltage when near or at full charge, but they take much less amperage to be brought to that amperage and as such take much longer to reach those high states of charge.

So in this case, will 11 extra amps of output put a weak alternator over the edge, I doubt it. Will its shorter lifespan be measurable because the near end of life battery was requiring slightly more amperage to be held at 13.6 or 14.7v, I highly doubt it.

If someone has data on how much amperage a shorted cell in a particular size battery will chew up at 13.6 or 14.7v, I'd love to see it.

I'm gonna guess it is likely around 10 to 15 amps and perhaps as high as 20 in some bigger batteries. I suspect if it were higher than this the battery casing on the bottom of the cell would melt and distort.

Your headlights on low beam are about 15 amps
your Hvac blower motor is about 10 to 18 amps.

Will using your headlights in addition to your HVAC blower motor on High speed kill your alternator?

Of course not, but the alternator which never has to power those loads, will last longer than one which does not have to all other factors being equal. Measurably longer? Perhaps in a scientific study will all variables removed.

I can and do see loads increase my alternator temperature, but only if it is getting over 180f regularly will I start worrying about it

That 180F can occur fairly quickly idling parked and maxing out the alternator, but at 65mph I cant get it over 140f maxed out.

220f is the threshold where the boaters, charging huge banks of depleted batteries, say that the damage occurs quickest, and they employ highly sohisticated voltaeg regulators with alternator temperature sensors, battery temp sensors and the ability to program a 'belt saver' and lower the voltage and thus reduce the load on the alternator when it gets too hot from feeding a hungry large depleted battery bank over thick copper cabling.

Alternators in most vehicles have a cakewalk duty compared to a boat. the hardest they will likely work is after the battery is unintentionally depleted and then jumpstarted.

I have a Newish group 31 northstar AGM with 1150CCA and 103 amp hours of capacity, and the other week depleted it to about 30% state of charge. 134 amps of plug in charging source/power supply were not enough to instantly bring it to 14.7volts. I tripped a 15 amp breaker trying and then it was 94 amps for several more minutes before battery voltaeg atained 14.7 at which point amperage required to maintain that voltaeg started tapering.

This beast of a battery can certainly max out my alternator, and once it starts hitting 165 or 170 f i will lower voltage in order to keep the alternator from getting much hotter, but at highway speeds, I don't stress it as that underhood airflow at that speed keeps it from exceeding much over 140f.

Of course other vehicles and alternators will be different, but idling parked to recharge well depleted still healthy battery is without a doubt much harder on an alternator, than highways speeds. I've found sub 30mph low rpm around town driving to be not much better than idle on my vehicle in terms of alternator heating.
 
I think there is a salient point being missed here and carparts has an explanation at https://www.carparts.com/blog/a-short-course-on-charging-systems/

Quote
The voltage regulator controls the field current applied to the spinning rotor inside the alternator. When there is no current applied to the field, there is no voltage produced from the alternator. When voltage drops below 13.5 volts, the regulator will apply current to the field and the alternator will start charging. When the voltage exceeds 14.5 volts, the regulator will stop supplying voltage to the field and the alternator will stop charging. This is how voltage output from the alternator is regulated.


There are two current paths operating within the Alternator:

1. the field current to the rotor,
2. the output current from the AC "three-phase" fed diodes.

So how is the output current from the alternator regulated??

The regulator IC feeds current to the rotor field via the brushes. More voltage across the rotor field (the load) forces more current through the rotor field windings.

Inside the regulator IC is an output transistor that regulates the voltage "across" the rotor field windings which in turn forces current through the rotor field windings.

As the rotor field is increased in magnetic strength, due to increased rotor current from the IC regulator, the rotor's rotating magnetic field gets stronger which results in the rectifier diodes producing increased output voltage.

Any one rotor design can only increase its magnetic field strength until the rotor's magnetic field reaches a maximum which is called, "magnetic saturation." This means a maximum current in the rotor winding has been reached - such that any additional current that could be forced through the rotor winding does NOT result in an increase of the alternator's output voltage or current.

Now when the rotor's magnetic saturation point is reached, this is the point at which the maximum output current of the alternator is reached and the output transistor in the regulator IC is throttled back to protect 1) the output transistor, 2) the rotor's field winding's, 3) the stator windings and 4) the output diodes.

Each alternator is designed to output only so much current.
 
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In addition to heat, another way that alternator rectifier diodes can fail is from transient voltage surges. I don't know what the actual PIV (voltage) rating is for automotive alternator rectifier diodes (and it probably varies from manufacturer to manufacturer), but an alternator is capable of outputting voltage transients well in excess of 100 volts under certain conditions, which can instantly pop a lower PIV rated rectifier diode. A bad/intermittent ground can cause this. I suspect that this is a very common cause of diode failures.
 
Originally Posted by Technoid
One of the things that most would over look in a charging system is a failure of an alternator diode. You might have an electrical symptom where components are working strange. When a diode fails it will either short or open. Most of the time it shorts or leaks AC. When this happens you get AC intrusion into the charging system. This can damage electronic components or make them operate wrong. This AC intrusion is in a frequency of 1000- 3000 htz. Your alternator is just that. An AC generator before the diode clusters. To properly check you need a good brand of digital vom. Or if you have an analog meter like a Simpson 260 you need to add a diode to the ground probe as a DC blocker. Any AC in the DC will read by about half of it's actual voltage. If you find AC in your charging system you need to replace the alternator as soon as possible. A weak charge is also an indication of a bad diode or just a bad regulator.


I'm not clear on what you mean there. So checking my 12v automotive charging system with my DMM, I would be looking for approximately 6V of AC to show up if I had an alternator on its way out?
 
good info everyone!

@MolaKule, basically what you are saying is that as long as the regulator is working properly, the alternator and/or the diodes will be protected. No?

Worst case scenario, if the regulator is not working properly or if the battery is in very bad shape (i.e. cannot maintain or hold charge), the alternator will be operating under "magnetic saturation" mode and will be providing the maximum but limited amounts of current.

Q:
is a typical system designed to operate under full saturation for extended amount of time without causing any damage e.g. overheating the alternator or weakening the diodes, etc.?
Let's define extended = 2 hours
 
Originally Posted by OilUzer


Q:
...is a typical system designed to operate under full saturation for extended amount of time without causing any damage e.g. overheating the alternator or weakening the diodes, etc.?
Let's define extended = 2 hours


Most modern alternator Integrated Circuit (IC) regulators are positioned at the back of the alternator case and share the same average internal temperature as the rest of the alternator.

That IC senses three things: 1) rotor current, 2) output voltage, 3) internal alternator temperature.

This IC's temperature sensing component monitors temperature such that if the temperature gets too high, the rotor current is throttled back.

A battery with a shorted cell presents an extra load on the alternator and could make the alternator run hotter than normal. In fact, any extra load above and beyond the designed current output capability can tax the alternator

Any solid state component within the alternator has a finite lifetime which is highly dependent on the number of over temperature heat cycles.
 
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Originally Posted by wag123
In addition to heat, another way that alternator rectifier diodes can fail is from transient voltage surges. I don't know what the actual PIV (voltage) rating is for automotive alternator rectifier diodes (and it probably varies from manufacturer to manufacturer), but an alternator is capable of outputting voltage transients well in excess of 100 volts under certain conditions, which can instantly pop a lower PIV rated rectifier diode. A bad/intermittent ground can cause this. I suspect that this is a very common cause of diode failures.



Here is one set of automotive Diode specs:

Automitive Alternator Diode Specs

Normal, undamaged diodes have a reverse current of 1 Microamp.

The reverse Breakdown voltage varies from 24V to 30Volts.
 
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Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by wag123
In addition to heat, another way that alternator rectifier diodes can fail is from transient voltage surges. I don't know what the actual PIV (voltage) rating is for automotive alternator rectifier diodes (and it probably varies from manufacturer to manufacturer), but an alternator is capable of outputting voltage transients well in excess of 100 volts under certain conditions, which can instantly pop a lower PIV rated rectifier diode. A bad/intermittent ground can cause this. I suspect that this is a very common cause of diode failures.



Here is one set of automotive Diode specs:

Automitive Alternator Diode Specs

Normal, undamaged diodes have a reverse current of 1 Microamp.

The reverse Breakdown voltage varies from 24V to 30Volts.
So, with the rectifier diodes having a PIV rating of 30v, the transient voltage surge generated by a load dump would definitely pop some of the rectifier diodes, even if the surge is clamped at 40v to protect the rest of the vehicle's electrical system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_dump
With this in mind, I would say that the vast majority of alternator diode failures are caused by this.
The lesson here is to NEVER disconnect the battery while the engine is running, and make sure that you have good solid grounds.
 
Originally Posted by wag123
[...So, with the rectifier diodes having a PIV rating of 30v, the transient voltage surge generated by a load dump would definitely pop some of the rectifier diodes, even if the surge is clamped at 40v to protect the rest of the vehicle's electrical system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_dump
With this in mind, I would say that the vast majority of alternator diode failures are caused by this.
The lesson here is to NEVER disconnect the battery while the engine is running, and make sure that you have good solid grounds.



The majority of diode failures are caused by extreme thermal cycling over time.

How many times do load dumps occur? None should occur under normal conditions.

Automotive electronics are protected by Transient Voltage Suppressors which clip any transient in the system.

https://pdf1.alldatasheet.co.kr/datasheet-pdf/view/87153/VISHAY/1.5KE300.html
 
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I have lost alternators shortly after replacing bad batteries. I assume that the alternator overheated trying to keep the old battery charged.
 
Its more likely your batteries failed because the alternator was undercharging them as it was failing with a shorted stator or failed diodes or some other fault long before you noticed a problem.

A new battery, if well depleted will accept much higher amperages at the same voltage than an old one, and thus can put more stress on an alternator.

A old battery, if well depleted, will accept much less amperage than a new one equally depleted at the same voltage, and put less stress on the alternator.


An old battery closer to full charge will require more amperage to beheld at a given voltage, but it is not a huge amperage number.

My recently removed battery when new required 0.4 amps to be held at 14.7v when new and fully charged, and 4.2 amps when fully charged to be held at 14.7v when older, just before it got too weak to quickly and easily start my engine.

The Lesser voltages that most vehicles maintain, means much less amperage required to hold the battery at that lesser voltage whether it is well depleted or closer to full charge.

Is an extra 3.5 amps of load going to kill an alternator?
" Arrrghhhhhhh don't charge more than 2 cell phones at once or you'll kill my alternator you danged millennial halfwits!!!!"

A battery with a shorted cell, I don't know exactly how much extra amperage it will draw, i'll guess 15 to 20 amps maximum. Much more than that would likely melt the plastic at the bottom of the shorted cell. but I'd love to see some actual data on the actual figure.

Is your alternator having to produce 15 to 20 extra amps going to kill it?

That's kind of like saying:
" Dont drive at night with both your high beams on, and your blower motor on high, as it will kill your alternator you half wit self important delusional millennial !!!!!!"

Put the failing weak battery killing an alternator rumor, firmly in the old wives tale rubbish bin.
It does not hold water, no matter how often it is repeated.

Now a failing alternator can most certainly push a weaker old battery over the cliff as a weak battery having to partially power the loads is like kicking a choking person in the crotch repeatedly.

I had a failing alternator in 2015, making only 30 of it 130 amp rating at 2220 rpm or higher, and this fell to no more than 5 amps at idle, and as my engine requires 8.2 amps at idle to power fuel pump and ignition it was discharging at low rpms. The alternator warranty provider had to order one, it took several days to arrive, and I watched amperage output keep declining for the first two days after ordering it, when I just said screw it and disconnected the field wires entirely. and just ran on the healthy battery I was fully charging via the grid at night.

It was easily able to make 50 amps at hot idle before beginning to fail.
 
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Originally Posted by wrcsixeight
I
...Put the failing weak battery killing an alternator rumor, firmly in the old wives tale rubbish bin.
It does not hold water, no matter how often it is repeated...


The IC regulator throttles back current to the rotor anytime a high voltage limit is reached, a current limit is reached, or high temperature is sensed.

A battery with a shorted cell or an open cell has already failed no matter what the alternator is doing. The alternator will attempt to track the condition of the battery as described above.
 
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