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Re: NOAK evaporation and GDI engines [Re: Triple_Se7en] #5382126 03/21/20 01:04 PM
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Ignatius Offline
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Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
I think the OP wants to know what the lowest Noack oils are in 5w30?
In the mid-priced, I think Mobil-1 has two...... AP and ESP. Valvoline may have two.... Modern Engine and Advanced. Pennzoil Ultra Platinum may be on the low tier also. Same with Rotella Multi Vehicle.

Anyone care to add to this, or eliminate any of the ones I suspect are pretty good Noack oils in 5w30?


Valvoline Advanced Synthetic 5w30 is 8.0 NOACK. Outside of maybe Ravenol it is the lowest 5w30 NOACK I am aware of.


2018 Subaru Outback Limited - 95,000 miles
2018 Subaru Outback Premium - 37,000 miles
2012 Hyundai Accent GLS - 103,000 miles
2005 Dodge Sprinter 3500 - 168,000 miles
Re: NOAK evaporation and GDI engines [Re: Triple_Se7en] #5382129 03/21/20 01:05 PM
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JOD Offline
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Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
I think the OP wants to know what the lowest Noack oils are in 5w30?
In the mid-priced, I think Mobil-1 has two...... AP and ESP. Valvoline may have two.... Modern Engine and Advanced. Pennzoil Ultra Platinum may be on the low tier also. Same with Rotella Multi Vehicle.

Anyone care to add to this, or eliminate any of the ones I suspect are pretty good Noack oils in 5w30?


Mobil1 5W30 ESP in the 1 liter bottles (the "Formula" version) is about las low as you'll get--less the 6% from the VOA's that are out there. Of course, it's much thicker than the oil spec'd for the car (3.5 hths), so the question is "is it necessary or beneficial to use an oil that much thicker than spec'd?".

I don't really know the answer.

Re: NOAK evaporation and GDI engines [Re: Ignatius] #5382136 03/21/20 01:15 PM
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OVERKILL Offline
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Originally Posted by Ignatius
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
I think the OP wants to know what the lowest Noack oils are in 5w30?
In the mid-priced, I think Mobil-1 has two...... AP and ESP. Valvoline may have two.... Modern Engine and Advanced. Pennzoil Ultra Platinum may be on the low tier also. Same with Rotella Multi Vehicle.

Anyone care to add to this, or eliminate any of the ones I suspect are pretty good Noack oils in 5w30?


Valvoline Advanced Synthetic 5w30 is 8.0 NOACK. Outside of maybe Ravenol it is the lowest 5w30 NOACK I am aware of.


M1 AP 5w-30 is 8.5%: http://www.pqiadata.org/Mobil1_Annual_Protection_5W30.html so pretty close.

Of course Ravenol DXG 5w-30 is 6%, LOL https://www.ravenol.de/en/product-range/motor-oils-for-passenger-cars-1/ravenol-dxg-sae-5w-30/


2019 RAM 1500 Sport - Mobil 1 EP 0w-20, FRAM Ultra
2020 Grand Cherokee SRT - Ravenol SSL 0w-40, FRAM Ultra
Re: NOAK evaporation and GDI engines [Re: benjy] #5382144 03/21/20 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by benjy
you will notice few manufacturers post noack anymore because thinner oils being pushed have WORSE noacks. all things equal higher viscosity oils have BETTER noacks. to get a great noack with a watery oil you need to $$$ on real synthetic PAO + Ester oils. thinner base oils = worse noacks even with real synthetics!!


That's probably a fair general rule; generally the lighter the molecule (which is what generally makes the lower viscosity), the less energy to volatilize. But narrower spreads and other factors make it that there's no absolute.

Re: NOAK evaporation and GDI engines [Re: wolf_06] #5382146 03/21/20 01:42 PM
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Bryanccfshr Offline
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All things being equal across a similar line 5w20 and 10w30 will have better/lower noack than 0w16,0w20,5w30

A higher viscosity with a higher numerical winter rating will do best if cold temperature performance is not critical.

https://cglapps.chevron.com/sdspds/PDSDetailPage.aspx?docDataId=518483&docFormat=PDF

Last edited by Bryanccfshr; 03/21/20 01:45 PM.

2018 Trd Pro 4Runner
2018 Tacoma off-road

Dealer 0w20 to M1 0w40 FS -it depends
Re: NOAK evaporation and GDI engines [Re: wolf_06] #5382212 03/21/20 02:56 PM
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tc1446 Offline
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Would a Catch Can help?


'14 Kia Soul, 2.0L (29K)
'13 Accord EX-L 2.4L (110K) M1 & FU
'00 Ford Ranger 4.0L {69K} M1 & FU
'18 Polaris Slingshot 2.4L GM (QS & Bosch Cart.)
'07 Kioti CK-30 (Delo & Wix)
Re: NOAK evaporation and GDI engines [Re: wolf_06] #5382218 03/21/20 03:03 PM
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Gokhan Offline
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Originally Posted by wolf_06
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrLNDgrIw3U

I was watching this video, and as a owner of a direct injection car, 2018 Mazda 3 that I got brand new, now at 40,000 km, I realized how direct injection is an amazing technology, but seems to have his flaws.

So this guy seems to say that to have less evaporation going in the PCV valve and being recycled in the intake and sucked back in by the intake valves, which is where they apparently get gummed up, to use a oil with a lower NOAK evaporation, basically that wont evaporate as quick so it doesn't end up gunking up the intake valve.

That being said, he also mention that a 0w20 or a 20 weight oil will evaporate quicker and gum the intake valve more. The 20 weight oil seems to have higher evaporation %. His opinion is to go with a thicker oil that will have less evaporation, less crankcase gas, less gunk on the intake valve.

So basically a top quality low evaporation synthetic oil in a 30 weight, 5w30 or 0w30 would be ideal for GDI.

He didn't mentioned anything with quality of fuel, octane ratings, detergents, so basically 87 octave vs 91 or higher.

In my manual, Mexico recommends 5w30 at a 5000 km OCI, with no real specific mention of a synthetic oil. Maybe, just maybe a low NOAK dino oil changed at 3,000 miles the old fashion way would prevent this? Or a good synthetic low NOAK changed at 5,000 miles.

Any of you had problems with direction injection like this? Needed a valve cleaning service?

Or course the dealership will jump on this to make money.

Another thing, who knows what kind of oil the dealership puts in my car, they say its Petro Canada 0w20 full syn, but who really knows, they want to make a profit, not really caring for my intake valve IMO.

I would appreciate your inputs on this, Thanks!

It's Noack -- the last name of the scientist who invented the procedure.

I've been saying this over and over: It is not distilled evaporated-oil vapor that comes from the PCV and deposits on the intake valves -- it is liquid oil-mist droplets that contain the whole additive package with ash. Therefore, Noack does not directly affect the intake-valve deposits (IVD).

However, the base-oil quality does affect the IVD, and the Noack is inversely proportional to the base-oil quality for a given base-oil viscosity. For example a PAO-and-AN-based oil like Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 (not the other viscosity grades) or a GTL-based oil like Pennzoil Platinum with PurePlus (all viscosity grades) will help. Nevertheless, you won't see a difference between PPPP 0W-20 and PPPP 10W-30 even though their Noack's vastly differ, as their base-oil quality is the same.

The following all help: lower sulphated ash, higher base-oil quality, more antioxidant, and (possibly) less VII. Noack does not directly help.


2020 Toyota Prius Prime XLE plug-in hybrid, 2ZR-FXE engine, ~ 65 mpg on regular gasoline, ~ 5,000 mi
TGMO 0W-16 SN/RC Japan
OEM spin-on oil filter Japan
Re: NOAK evaporation and GDI engines [Re: wolf_06] #5382223 03/21/20 03:08 PM
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Whammo Offline
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3-4k oil changes with Pennzoil YB 10-30 is what I'm running in my GDI (at least in the summer). Noack under 5.

Re: NOAK evaporation and GDI engines [Re: Whammo] #5382239 03/21/20 03:33 PM
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PimTac Offline
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Originally Posted by Whammo
3-4k oil changes with Pennzoil YB 10-30 is what I'm running in my GDI (at least in the summer). Noack under 5.




Is that the latest Noack reading?


2017 Mazda CX5
Mobil 1 Annual Protection 0w20
Roki OEM filter.
Re: NOAK evaporation and GDI engines [Re: PimTac] #5382243 03/21/20 03:39 PM
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Gokhan Offline
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Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by Whammo
3-4k oil changes with Pennzoil YB 10-30 is what I'm running in my GDI (at least in the summer). Noack under 5.
Is that the latest Noack reading?

Exactly. That test with Noack ~ 4 was done five years ago. It was probably an unusual surplus GTL base stock that was used. The current formulation is likely to be of Group II or Group II+ with much higher Noack. You are much better off with a synthetic oil you're sure to be of Group III, GTL, or PAO, as the base-oil quality is what matters for IVD, not the Noack, as I explained above.


2020 Toyota Prius Prime XLE plug-in hybrid, 2ZR-FXE engine, ~ 65 mpg on regular gasoline, ~ 5,000 mi
TGMO 0W-16 SN/RC Japan
OEM spin-on oil filter Japan
Re: NOAK evaporation and GDI engines [Re: tc1446] #5382286 03/21/20 04:42 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
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OilUzer Offline
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Originally Posted by tc1446
Would a Catch Can help?


Good question. I've read a lot about catch cans and as of now, have concluded that they are useless. however part of me still thinks they may work ... lol

Having said that, I never used one and the last time I checked the pcv valve and the connecting hoses, etc. in our 2.4L GDI (iirc 70K miles at the time), I did not see a drop of oil or sludge or gummed up oil or nothing. Very nice and clean.You would think some oil should have condensed in there ... I thought maybe fuel due to dilution is washing things clean. idk. Was expecting some sludge or residue.
Btw, since the valve was nice & clean and clicking ... I put it back.

Re: NOAK evaporation and GDI engines [Re: Gokhan] #5382317 03/21/20 05:24 PM
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buster Offline
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Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by wolf_06
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrLNDgrIw3U

I was watching this video, and as a owner of a direct injection car, 2018 Mazda 3 that I got brand new, now at 40,000 km, I realized how direct injection is an amazing technology, but seems to have his flaws.

So this guy seems to say that to have less evaporation going in the PCV valve and being recycled in the intake and sucked back in by the intake valves, which is where they apparently get gummed up, to use a oil with a lower NOAK evaporation, basically that wont evaporate as quick so it doesn't end up gunking up the intake valve.

That being said, he also mention that a 0w20 or a 20 weight oil will evaporate quicker and gum the intake valve more. The 20 weight oil seems to have higher evaporation %. His opinion is to go with a thicker oil that will have less evaporation, less crankcase gas, less gunk on the intake valve.

So basically a top quality low evaporation synthetic oil in a 30 weight, 5w30 or 0w30 would be ideal for GDI.

He didn't mentioned anything with quality of fuel, octane ratings, detergents, so basically 87 octave vs 91 or higher.

In my manual, Mexico recommends 5w30 at a 5000 km OCI, with no real specific mention of a synthetic oil. Maybe, just maybe a low NOAK dino oil changed at 3,000 miles the old fashion way would prevent this? Or a good synthetic low NOAK changed at 5,000 miles.

Any of you had problems with direction injection like this? Needed a valve cleaning service?

Or course the dealership will jump on this to make money.

Another thing, who knows what kind of oil the dealership puts in my car, they say its Petro Canada 0w20 full syn, but who really knows, they want to make a profit, not really caring for my intake valve IMO.

I would appreciate your inputs on this, Thanks!

It's Noack -- the last name of the scientist who invented the procedure.

I've been saying this over and over: It is not distilled evaporated-oil vapor that comes from the PCV and deposits on the intake valves -- it is liquid oil-mist droplets that contain the whole additive package with ash. Therefore, Noack does not directly affect the intake-valve deposits (IVD).

However, the base-oil quality does affect the IVD, and the Noack is inversely proportional to the base-oil quality for a given base-oil viscosity. For example a PAO-and-AN-based oil like Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 (not the other viscosity grades) or a GTL-based oil like Pennzoil Platinum with PurePlus (all viscosity grades) will help. Nevertheless, you won't see a difference between PPPP 0W-20 and PPPP 10W-30 even though their Noack's vastly differ, as their base-oil quality is the same.

The following all help: lower sulphated ash, higher base-oil quality, more antioxidant, and (possibly) less VII. Noack does not directly help.



cheers thumbsup


2020 - Mazda CX-30 - Mobil 1 EP 0w20
2019 - Subaru Impreza - Dealer Oil
Re: NOAK evaporation and GDI engines [Re: Gokhan] #5382372 03/21/20 07:37 PM
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wolf_06 Offline OP
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The following all help: lower sulphated ash, higher base-oil quality, more antioxidant, and (possibly) less VII. Noack does not directly help.[/quote]

Can you educate me on lower sulfated ash? Im not sure about that, and what oil would you suggest?

Is runner regular vs premium gas would reduce some deposits through the pcv?


2018 Mazda 3 GS 2.0 Skyactiv 6AT
Petro Canada Full Syn 0w20 + OEM filter
Re: NOAK evaporation and GDI engines [Re: wolf_06] #5382414 03/21/20 08:44 PM
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sloinker Offline
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Originally Posted by wolf_06
The following all help: lower sulphated ash, higher base-oil quality, more antioxidant, and (possibly) less VII. Noack does not directly help.


Can you educate me on lower sulfated ash? Im not sure about that, and what oil would you suggest?

Is runner regular vs premium gas would reduce some deposits through the pcv?[/quote]

The Ravenol cited and many 504/507 specification oils have the wanted attributes as pointed out by Gokhan. A good detergent in the gasoline is desirable for many reasons.


'16 Tiguan TSI Vaico 5W40
'15 VW Golf TDI Red Line 5W30 Euro
'15 VW Golf Sportwagen TDI M1 ESP 5W30
'14 Dodge Grand Caravan 3.6 Valvoline 5W20 Semi Synthetic
'64 Plymouth Fury440 Pending
Re: NOAK evaporation and GDI engines [Re: wolf_06] #5382439 03/21/20 09:15 PM
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Gokhan Offline
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Sulphated ash (SA) is usually listed in the oil specs. It's a method to determine the ash (metal) content of an oil. Ash can deposit on the intake valves, spark plugs, oxygen sensor, catalytic converter, particulate filter, etc. Typical ILSAC oils have 0.8% SA, which is also borderline mid-SAPS (SAPS: sulphated-ash, phosphorus, and sulfur) for ACEA oils. VW 504.00 oils mentioned above also tend to have 0.8% SA.

With direct injection you're not getting much gas on the intake valves if at all. The detergent content of the gas is usually independent of the octane number.


2020 Toyota Prius Prime XLE plug-in hybrid, 2ZR-FXE engine, ~ 65 mpg on regular gasoline, ~ 5,000 mi
TGMO 0W-16 SN/RC Japan
OEM spin-on oil filter Japan
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