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what causes this cylinder wall polishing #5376436 03/14/20 07:53 PM
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alex_at Offline OP
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Hello,

see attached picture.

What is causing this area of the cylinder to look polished with no cross-hatch remaining visible? Is it lubrication related or mechanical, metallurgy?
How comes it's isolated to that area? It's only on this visible side, the opposite site is normal.

Is there any possible way to prevent this? Using an oil with high zinc, motorcycle oil with moly or boron? Wolfram additive?

Engine in question is a 805cc liquid cooled V-Twin


vlcyl_polished.jpg
Last edited by alex_at; 03/14/20 07:54 PM.
Re: what causes this cylinder wall polishing [Re: alex_at] #5376449 03/14/20 08:20 PM
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walterjay Offline
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I know that running certain engines at consistently low rpm can cause egging of the cylinder. Could be a possibility but not sure here.

Re: what causes this cylinder wall polishing [Re: alex_at] #5376455 03/14/20 08:31 PM
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spasm3 Online Happy
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I think it has to do with how it was honed. A singe fine hone would probably polish like this. Plateau honing is done on some engines. Honed coarse and deeper, then honed again with a finer hone to knock down the peaks. If i understand it right, the plateau hone holds more oil on the cylinder wall and wears less.


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Re: what causes this cylinder wall polishing [Re: alex_at] #5376461 03/14/20 08:47 PM
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ZeeOSix Offline
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What's the piston skirt wear look like? Probably wear from piston skirt rocking ... maybe the skirt to cylinder clearance was too large.

How many miles are on this engine?

Re: what causes this cylinder wall polishing [Re: alex_at] #5376476 03/14/20 09:01 PM
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4WD Offline
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How is the motor mounted related to the photo … ie, is that the low side of a vertical shaft or what ?

Re: what causes this cylinder wall polishing [Re: alex_at] #5376656 03/15/20 06:23 AM
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Lubener Offline
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Seen that many times on a highly used engine. The piston skirt likely has some wear as well. Eventually the cylinder becomed egg shaped. The ones I encountered were engines that ran at a constant RPM without much variation in operating RPM's.


The "thinking" man's friend.
Re: what causes this cylinder wall polishing [Re: alex_at] #5376731 03/15/20 08:18 AM
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Cujet Offline
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That looks like a relatively normal wear rate. It's good to keep in mind that there may not be a single contributing factor to the rate of wear or the uneven wear.

I don't know if you are trying to fix a problem or extend engine life. But my very first guess is piston pin offset (or the associated cylinder bore offset/lack of offset) is a contributing factor.

If the engine has provided a good service life, why not simply repair it with equivalent parts and expect a similar lifespan? If the engine failed early, are there quality aftermarket/race parts that would solve the problem.

With many modern engines, engineers have been able to use incredibly short skirt pistons, while simultaneously achieving superb wear rates. This is done partly via pin and cylinder offset, along with weight reduction and very high quality rings.


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Re: what causes this cylinder wall polishing [Re: alex_at] #5376783 03/15/20 09:26 AM
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Farnsworth Offline
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My guess is bore is machined out of round, and the cross hatching shown looks like maybe it was not factory done?

https://www.hastingspistonrings.com/tech-tips-faqs/cylinder-bore-refinishing

Re: what causes this cylinder wall polishing [Re: alex_at] #5376810 03/15/20 09:47 AM
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CT8 Offline
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Lube or dirt or wear then maybe the quality of the engine.


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Re: what causes this cylinder wall polishing [Re: Farnsworth] #5377136 03/15/20 04:35 PM
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Cujet Offline
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Originally Posted by Farnsworth
My guess is bore is machined out of round, and the cross hatching shown looks like maybe it was not factory done?

https://www.hastingspistonrings.com/tech-tips-faqs/cylinder-bore-refinishing


Could very well be uneven bore dimensions. I had intended on posting that point too, but it was a fleeting thought....


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Re: what causes this cylinder wall polishing [Re: alex_at] #5377599 03/16/20 06:51 AM
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alex_at Offline OP
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thanks for your input,

the engine in question is a Suzuki V-Twin, never been opened before. Engine has 16000 miles on it.

It comes out of a M50, I was thinking of buying that engine as a replacement when my C50 engine goes out.

Cujet said it looks like a relatively normal wear rate - but at 16000 miles only?

Piston has minimal polishing marks.

Last edited by alex_at; 03/16/20 06:52 AM.
Re: what causes this cylinder wall polishing [Re: alex_at] #5377884 03/16/20 02:05 PM
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1978elcamino Offline
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Below is a copy and paste for glazing of cylinder bores...

Glazing of cylinder walls typically occurs during engine break-in and is caused by improper operation during the break-in period by operating at power settings too low to allow the piston rings to seat properly with the cylinder walls.

Re: what causes this cylinder wall polishing [Re: 1978elcamino] #5378214 03/16/20 11:06 PM
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CCI Offline
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Quote
Glazing of cylinder walls typically occurs during engine break-in and is caused by improper operation during the break-in period by operating at power settings too low to allow the piston rings to seat properly with the cylinder walls.


I've rebuilt a lot of motorcycle engines including some of the same engines several times over the years and I'm going to agree on the likelihood of this, given the info you've provided so far.

It would be interesting to measure the piston to cylinder wall clearance and the ring gap. As low of mileage as this one is you might be able to save yourself a bunch of time and trouble. If the piston to cylinder wall clearance is still within service wear limits and the pistons look OK you might get away with honing a cross hatch and new rings, just be sure to check the ring gap in place prior to assembly and stagger the gaps properly upon reassembly. I don't know your particular bike at all, but there should be a published spec for cylinder bore and service wear limits. Older bikes you could use a feeler gauge, some modern bikes you can't do this because of the piston shape, there is a bore spec for that piston and that's it. If you don't have the tools any good machine shop would probably check it for a couple of bucks.

I have had excellent results from Flex-Hone (looks like a bunch of abrasive nodules on a wire brush), the quality of finish and oil retention is excellent, and the stock removal is almost nil. No special tools required, a cordless drill works fine. After honing DO NOT use solvent of any kind, wipe the cylinder walls with a clean rag saturated with clean oil until the rag comes out clean. If you wash the cylinder with solvent after honing you will be right back where you started but worse. The solvent carries the abrasive particles into the pores of the metal and it will result in accelerated wear and maybe even glazed rings.

The reason why I am agreeing with 1978elcamino is I've seen this before for the reasons described. On a new build the ring edges are sharp and the fine structure of the cylinder walls if properly honed are "open" for lack of a better word. It's an abrasive situation even if the walls were oiled properly on assembly. The first start should be only a couple of seconds and shut the engine off immediately. The edges of the rings will have turned very, very hot. Wait a few minutes, start the engine, do not tach it up, run for 30 seconds, shut it off, wait a few minutes. Now start the engine and ride the bike for a few miles and just ride normally, don't beat it, don't baby it. Let it cool off, then go for a 50 mile ride, come home, change the oil. I have no idea how many bikes I've done this with and never had a problem.

If moly-faced rings are an option for that bike you might have better results from that as well..

Re: what causes this cylinder wall polishing [Re: CCI] #5380146 03/19/20 08:27 AM
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alex_at Offline OP
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wow, thank you so much CCI!

I just googled about the flex-hone, never seen that before. I even have a local merchant.

Now, there are different materials available for the flex-hone, "normal" to different carbides - which one would I choose?

thanks

Re: what causes this cylinder wall polishing [Re: alex_at] #5380558 03/19/20 04:40 PM
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ZeeOSix Offline
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Did you, or are you, going to measure the cylinder diameter, roundness and taper to see if it's out of spec?

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