Recent Topics
2017 Nissan Titan SV 5.6
by ThrowinRocks - 05/26/20 11:30 PM
Need Some People to Do a Ping Test
by ZeeOSix - 05/26/20 10:22 PM
Dumb parking question.
by PhuongFU - 05/26/20 09:38 PM
spin on fuel filter
by mobilaltima - 05/26/20 09:36 PM
Peak Cool Orange no longer GM DEXCOOL Approved?
by Matt1980 - 05/26/20 08:10 PM
Mesh Router System - 160MHz Backhaul?
by JHZR2 - 05/26/20 08:06 PM
Downshift before WOT?
by Avery4 - 05/26/20 08:01 PM
Getting a free 1997 Chevy 1500 extended cab
by FADEC - 05/26/20 07:22 PM
Got new tires for the trailer today
by BeerCan - 05/26/20 07:06 PM
how much cca is necessary for a truck battery?
by apollo18 - 05/26/20 06:17 PM
Electric car charge cord review
by OVERKILL - 05/26/20 04:55 PM
faulty bosch right angle drill
by benjy - 05/26/20 04:14 PM
2017 Accord Hybrid Brake Fluid Flush
by Tundragod - 05/26/20 04:12 PM
06 GMC Hybrid
by hardheaded - 05/26/20 03:57 PM
98 Camry busted oil drain plug
by JeffKeryk - 05/26/20 03:31 PM
Picked up a used Honda Push Mower today
by redhat - 05/26/20 02:43 PM
Mevotech vs. MOOG
by pbm - 05/26/20 01:47 PM
Newest Members
Bruce_S, Rwogs, MechEnDawg, jimbacot, MowerVet
71537 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
62 registered members (Astro14, Best F100, alarmguy, 2015_PSD, Alain2, 53' Stude, 7 invisible), 1,418 guests, and 29 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics305,926
Posts5,282,943
Members71,537
Most Online4,538
Jan 20th, 2020
Donate to BITOG
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 4 of 4 1 2 3 4
Re: Project Farm Air Filter Test! [Re: Kage860] #5375566 03/13/20 03:14 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 12,233
wemay Offline
Offline
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 12,233
Interesting comment from one of the viewers on YouTube...

Originally Posted by keld101


So I researched into air filtration technologies and published research articles on airborne particle sizes and concentrations, particle size affect on engine wear, and factors in predicting engine wear based on air contaminates. I take back what I said about the filter being saturated with flour and I believe the filter was properly oiled. Turns out it's way more complicated than it seems and even academic researchers are struggling to reach a consensus on many of the basic points. K&N claims between a 96-99% cumulative filtration in ISO 5011 testing (https://www.knfilters.com/efficiency_testing.htm). Dry filters on the other hand should see nearly 100% filtration down to their pore size (which we saw in you testing). But there's a catch, once you go below the pore size nearly all of the particulate matter should pass straight through the dry filter (though they can actually act like finer filters as they clog at the significant expense of airflow), where as the oiled filter should continue to filter out 96-99% of the particulates no matter the size. Typical flower is 89-98% 10-41μm and 41-300μm particulates, and 2-11% 10μm or smaller (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0733521084710587). In conclusion, it appears that neither dry filters or oiled filters alone can fully protect an engine from wear but dry filter are by far more effective at stopping the most dangerous debris. I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually saw a high performance car intake system that uses both technologies with the oiled filter being a maintenance free item and large replaceable dry filters being the primary flirtation.

I think the fact that you had no filter-less control to show what the count would have been with flour going straight through the system may have skewed everyone's interpretation of what's going on. Long story short, without a filter less control to compare to I could predict only vaguely similar results as what your testing indicated (and I do agree that in the continuous flow test that the particulates probably passed the counter before you checked it) but I don't think most peoples' interpretation of the results really reflects what is going on or the difference between oiled vs dry filters. Despite what simulated testing (yours and others I've found) have shown, oiled filters are doing at least a similar job at preventing engine wear as dry filters. So either the effects of 40 times the pass through of particulates is only marginal (but no less an important factor when selecting a filter) OR 60mph airflow in your system is more than real world air velocity's through the filters causing more pass through than normal OR the distribution of flour particulate sizes is vastly dissimulator compared to the vast majority of ambient air particulate sizes across the USA.

I'd love to see a control test with flour to find out if the pass through we saw is within the 1-4% K&N is promising and some measurement of how much of the 3-6um particles made it through the dry filters because I think it's way more than what viewers think and it has been shown to cause significant engine wear (https://www.researchgate.net/public...and_filtration_on_automobile_engine_wear).


19 VW Passat Wolfsburg TSI: Castrol Edge Pro LL IV Fe 0W20 + VW oil filter
13 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport 2.0T: Shell Rotella Gas Truck 5W30 + H/K oil filter
Re: Project Farm Air Filter Test! [Re: Kage860] #5375607 03/13/20 04:18 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 23,654
Z
ZeeOSix Offline
Offline
Z
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 23,654
From the quote above:
"I think the fact that you had no filter-less control to show what the count would have been with flour going straight through the system may have skewed everyone's interpretation of what's going on. Long story short, without a filter less control to compare to I could predict only vaguely similar results as what your testing indicated (and I do agree that in the continuous flow test that the particulates probably passed the counter before you checked it) but I don't think most peoples' interpretation of the results really reflects what is going on or the difference between oiled vs dry filters."

The partial counter would have been overwhelmed if flour was poured in without a filter.

What he really needed was some way to evenly distribute the flour by injecting it into the airstream to more closely represent lots of dirt in an incoming air stream. And then inject X volume of flour over Y amount of time period, and watch the particle counter throughout the test time period.

Re: Project Farm Air Filter Test! [Re: Kage860] #5376102 03/14/20 08:59 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 516
T
TiGeo Offline
Offline
T
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 516
^^^

Dumping the dust right on top doesn't seem to be the best way to test this - the dirt would need to be added to a stream of air through filter at some rate that approximates real-world conditions.


2018 VW Atlas SEL 4Motion 3.6 - Castrol OE 5W40 VW filter
2018 VW GSW S 4Motion 1.8 Unitronic St2 IS20 - LiquiMoly 5W40 VW filter+Ceratec/MoS2
2013 Ford Focus SE HB 2.0 - MC syn-blend 5W20 MC filter
Re: Project Farm Air Filter Test! [Re: wemay] #5376103 03/14/20 09:02 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 516
T
TiGeo Offline
Offline
T
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 516
"I'm one of those that's used K&N in many vehicles without issue (consumption issues or otherwise). I still know that a quality paper filter will 'filter' better. That's not up for debate."

Pretty much - me too.

Last edited by TiGeo; 03/14/20 09:02 AM.

2018 VW Atlas SEL 4Motion 3.6 - Castrol OE 5W40 VW filter
2018 VW GSW S 4Motion 1.8 Unitronic St2 IS20 - LiquiMoly 5W40 VW filter+Ceratec/MoS2
2013 Ford Focus SE HB 2.0 - MC syn-blend 5W20 MC filter
Re: Project Farm Air Filter Test! [Re: Kage860] #5379327 03/18/20 08:24 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 6,978
Z
ZZman Offline
Offline
Z
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 6,978
Glad I bought a Wix!


2005 Toyota Avalon XLS 3.5 motor
2014 Ford Fusion 2.5 motor
Re: Project Farm Air Filter Test! [Re: Kage860] #5382625 03/22/20 07:00 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,054
W
Warlord Offline
Offline
W
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,054
If it’s universally accepted that a K&N won’t filter as good as paper what are the reasons someone would run one on a run of the mill vehicle? Is the extra 2 hp really worth it for your wife’s SUV? Personally I hate cleaning my dirtbike air filters and I would never willingly add that hassle to my daily driver’s maintenance. I just don’t get it. I see them as a motor sports filter only and I don’t think they should have begun marketing them as some sort of superior cost saving filter for everyday vehicles.


81 Ford 1100 - daily driver
07 GMC Canyon - 245000 km
08 Honda CRF230L - 5000 km
Re: Project Farm Air Filter Test! [Re: Warlord] #5382632 03/22/20 07:10 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,793
4WD Offline
Offline
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,793
The period in time (way back) that I tried K&N was when V8’s were coming out with the HP of today’s 4 bangers.
Anything you could put in or bolt on easily for HP was fair game.

You walk in and buy a vehicle with good power these days.

Re: Project Farm Air Filter Test! [Re: Warlord] #5382671 03/22/20 08:25 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,690
C
caprice_2nv Online Content
Online Content
C
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,690
Originally Posted by Warlord
If it’s universally accepted that a K&N won’t filter as good as paper what are the reasons someone would run one on a run of the mill vehicle? Is the extra 2 hp really worth it for your wife’s SUV? Personally I hate cleaning my dirtbike air filters and I would never willingly add that hassle to my daily driver’s maintenance. I just don’t get it. I see them as a motor sports filter only and I don’t think they should have begun marketing them as some sort of superior cost saving filter for everyday vehicles.


I'm not willing to use one on other of my vehicles anymore. When I did I didn't realize they didn't filter as well, I was just a teenager trying to get an extra few hp from the anemic 305.

Now I'm sticking to whatever filters best for my 37 year old 305 and 44 year old 350 Oldsmobile. I got them this far, might as well make an effort to get every last year I can out of them.


84 Olds Cutlass - 350 Olds
83 Chevy Caprice - 305 Sbc
05 Silverado 1500 4wd - 4.8/4L60E
79 Honda CX500
Re: Project Farm Air Filter Test! [Re: Warlord] #5383097 03/22/20 04:45 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 23,654
Z
ZeeOSix Offline
Offline
Z
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 23,654
Originally Posted by Warlord
If it’s universally accepted that a K&N won’t filter as good as paper what are the reasons someone would run one on a run of the mill vehicle? Is the extra 2 hp really worth it for your wife’s SUV?


Only if your wife has the go pedal down to the floor all the time. laugh

Re: Project Farm Air Filter Test! [Re: Warlord] #5383500 03/23/20 08:39 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 516
T
TiGeo Offline
Offline
T
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 516
Originally Posted by Warlord
If it’s universally accepted that a K&N won’t filter as good as paper what are the reasons someone would run one on a run of the mill vehicle? Is the extra 2 hp really worth it for your wife’s SUV? Personally I hate cleaning my dirtbike air filters and I would never willingly add that hassle to my daily driver’s maintenance. I just don’t get it. I see them as a motor sports filter only and I don’t think they should have begun marketing them as some sort of superior cost saving filter for everyday vehicles.


These are products aimed at performance-minded enthusiasts is the answer, not average drivers. The interval for cleaning is 50K miles - for me that about every 2-3 years. Part of the fun with cars for many IS the fiddling, just like cleaning the filter. I have my OE paper filters for all my vehicles that I run K&Ns in and just swap them out for the day. cleaning/re-oiling is v. simple/not time consuming. What takes time is letting it dry out after washing/oiling. Folks always go to the slight/negligible bump in power some get from these as a reason to not bother - not really different than many minor mods that we do our cars. I look at the filters as part of an overall intake system I run and yes, it does matter to me and no, the slight drop in filtering efficiency isn't a concern to me. My UOAs continue to show no-drama w/r to the proxies for air filtration. Dyno after dyno after flow bench after flow bench show that a high-flow filter (could be oiled or dry) when combined with other intake modifications on my platform (MK7 VW Golf) gives an increase in power. If it doesn't on your car or you don't care, cool!

Inked18 GOLF SW-200210_UOA_30K_clean.jpg

2018 VW Atlas SEL 4Motion 3.6 - Castrol OE 5W40 VW filter
2018 VW GSW S 4Motion 1.8 Unitronic St2 IS20 - LiquiMoly 5W40 VW filter+Ceratec/MoS2
2013 Ford Focus SE HB 2.0 - MC syn-blend 5W20 MC filter
Page 4 of 4 1 2 3 4
Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread

BOB IS THE OIL GUY® Powered by UBB.threads™