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FWD - Death traps with miss matched tires. #5361277 02/27/20 08:13 AM
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Fordiesel69 Offline OP
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**This thread will only apply to people that drive in snow and ice***

Some people believe in being cheap and only putting snow tires on the drive axle as that is what was done in the old days when they were growing up. All they had primarily was RWD rear wheel drive beasts which no doubt was not an issue, you just had to plan your stops better and pump the brakes. And quite frankly the traction was limited anyways with tires of that era. Cars simple weighed a lot and people adapted and im sure lots of people crashed too.

Fast forwarding directly to the point, I can reproduce it every time and cannot recover it very well. If you place 2 nice studded snow tires on the front axle of a FWD vehicle, and leave your all season tires on the rear, the back end will get loose on you when you let OFF the gas pedal. When you try to correct the issue or hit the brakes, it will make it worse. The only way to recover is to step hard on the gas and steer away to the direction you want it to recover. BUT.....if you are trying to slow down or stop for an intersection, this wont work either.

So.....we know the answer is to buy 4 snow tires and the problem goes away, but my question is simple, with good skill is there a technique to recover this oversteer condition and still get the vehicle stopped? Or will a modern vehicle with ABS or stability control prevent this?


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Re: FWD - Death traps with miss matched tires. [Re: Fordiesel69] #5361281 02/27/20 08:22 AM
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atikovi Offline
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Originally Posted by Fordiesel69
If you place 2 nice studded snow tires on the front axle of a FWD vehicle, and leave your all season tires on the rear, the back end will get loose on you when you let OFF the gas pedal. When you try to correct the issue or hit the brakes, it will make it worse. The only way to recover is to step hard on the gas and steer away to the direction you want it to recover.


How about, just not driving too fast for the conditions that cause you to lose control to begin with? Then you will be fine with all season tires all around.

Re: FWD - Death traps with miss matched tires. [Re: Fordiesel69] #5361282 02/27/20 08:25 AM
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ragtoplvr Offline
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Just apply your rear emergency brake and let t skid freely and counter-steer. Great fun. Mismatched is NOT unsafe. Excess speed and poor skills are.

Rod

Re: FWD - Death traps with miss matched tires. [Re: Fordiesel69] #5361284 02/27/20 08:28 AM
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CapriRacer Offline
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Originally Posted by Fordiesel69
……. but my question is simple, with good skill is there a technique to recover this oversteer condition and still get the vehicle stopped? Or will a modern vehicle with ABS or stability control prevent this?



The answer is to prevent the situation to begin with, but once the situation has gone too far, you can not recover, no matter how skillful the driver.

So driving slow with smooth movements and sensing when you've gone too far. then backing off - by either reducing the steering input, reducing the braking input, or slowing down.

I suspect that most ABS and stability control systems are preventative - that is they intervene early enough to prevent the situation - as best they can. There is an old adage about making things foolproof only encourages smarter fools.

And remember, it isn't getting the vehicle stopped so much as it is making it go where you want it to go.


CapriRacer

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Re: FWD - Death traps with miss matched tires. [Re: Fordiesel69] #5361295 02/27/20 08:47 AM
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supton Offline
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Maybe my truck just sucks, but even with snow tires on all 4 and traction/VSC on, I can make it snap at will on slippery surfaces--and I have the small V8! So I'm going to to vote "if the surfaces are bad enough, along with the driver, then anything bad can happen" in terms of ABS/VSC/TC preventing loss of control.

As far as driver skill, I dunno, I don't watch motor sports but those guys seem to wipe out on a regular basis. Makes me a bit dubious for the average joe to stay on top of the game and steer out of a situation.

Heh, side note, at work I often walk around the parking lot, and I spied a Tundra in the parking lot with all terrains up front and all seasons out back. I had to double check on that one!


2011 Toyota Camry, base, 2.5L/6MT, 203k, hers
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Re: FWD - Death traps with miss matched tires. [Re: supton] #5361328 02/27/20 09:29 AM
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ford46guy Offline
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Originally Posted by supton
Maybe my truck just sucks, but even with snow tires on all 4 and traction/VSC on, I can make it snap at will on slippery surfaces--and I have the small V8! So I'm going to to vote "if the surfaces are bad enough, along with the driver, then anything bad can happen" in terms of ABS/VSC/TC preventing loss of control.

As far as driver skill, I dunno, I don't watch motor sports but those guys seem to wipe out on a regular basis. Makes me a bit dubious for the average joe to stay on top of the game and steer out of a situation.

Heh, side note, at work I often walk around the parking lot, and I spied a Tundra in the parking lot with all terrains up front and all seasons out back. I had to double check on that one!


The Lexus GS is actually very similar to your truck (there is even a GS460 and all models share the same trans with the truck). It is AWD with a planetary TC.
I can't say ABS in the snow inspires confidence. I can stop better with the parking brake sometimes. The VSC seems pretty good though if you slip around a turn.


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Re: FWD - Death traps with miss matched tires. [Re: Fordiesel69] #5361382 02/27/20 10:30 AM
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bullwinkle Offline
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I’ve only tried studs on the front of a FWD once, on my old beater ‘90 Civic wagon, and it was virtually uncontrollable on ice, back end would go sideways even without getting crazy. Studless snows are so much better for FWD cars, there’s literally no comparison!


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Re: FWD - Death traps with miss matched tires. [Re: Fordiesel69] #5361384 02/27/20 10:31 AM
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bullwinkle Offline
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I would add, studs are fine on RWD, especially pickups-go as narrow as possible, put some weight over the axle, use lower gears to slow down.


06 Ram 3500 CTD 4X4(FG Venturi), 89 F-450 7.3, 98 XJ 4.0(XG8A), 05 xB(XG3600), 18 Transit 3.7, 03 Merc Grand Marquis 4.6 2V(XG2), 11 Express 3500 6.0 (various Baldwin for now)
Re: FWD - Death traps with miss matched tires. [Re: atikovi] #5361416 02/27/20 11:15 AM
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AZjeff Offline
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Originally Posted by atikovi
How about, just not driving too fast for the conditions that cause you to lose control to begin with? Then you will be fine with all season tires all around.
Says the guy who lives in DC not Erie where snowfall and bad roads are common and expected all winter every winter.

The problem is the huge difference in traction from front to back changing the handling dynamics of the car. No help on other ways to recover the slide but some weight in the trunk might lessen it a little. You know the correct fix.



14 RAV4 2.5 5W-20 PP
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The most important thing to do in your life is to not interfere with someone else's life. - Frank Zappa

Re: FWD - Death traps with miss matched tires. [Re: Fordiesel69] #5361417 02/27/20 11:22 AM
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JohnG Offline
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Did you try putting the studded tires on the rear? Seems that stopping that back end might be more important.

And I'm SURE you know to shift into neutral, Right. All the pictures of cars sliding proves that EVERYBODY knows how to do that. ( ;))

Re: FWD - Death traps with miss matched tires. [Re: Fordiesel69] #5361421 02/27/20 11:27 AM
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UG_Passat Offline
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With a recent AWD rental car (front wheel biased), the car had fresh tires in the rear and nearly worn ones up front (because that's the best practice these days). In a plowed snow area, making a right hand turn (not going that fast), the rear stepped out... so, you would have to steer into the skid to correct, all while allowing the car to brush off speed.

Something doesn't sound right if you're skidding on a FWD car when you release the gas pedal, since no power is going to the rear axle..but there can be minute weight shifts, especially if you release the gas pedal quickly, instead of slowly. Never happened to me with using chains with FWD.

Last edited by UG_Passat; 02/27/20 11:30 AM.

2016 VW Tiguan|APR Stage 1|Neuspeed P-Flo|Osram CBI|Redline 5w30
Re: FWD - Death traps with miss matched tires. [Re: AZjeff] #5361422 02/27/20 11:29 AM
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atikovi Offline
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Originally Posted by AZjeff
Originally Posted by atikovi
How about, just not driving too fast for the conditions that cause you to lose control to begin with? Then you will be fine with all season tires all around.
Says the guy who lives in DC not Erie where snowfall and bad roads are common and expected all winter every winter.


Plenty of snowfall around here, just not THIS year.

[Linked Image from fototime.com]

Re: FWD - Death traps with miss matched tires. [Re: Fordiesel69] #5361486 02/27/20 12:48 PM
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Kira Offline
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1) Road rally and dirt track techniques, while definable and reproduceable, simply won't be as instinctive as buttering a piece of bread....get real for a minute.

2) "When the back end kicks out put it in neutral and turn into the skid. Do this whilst applying the hand brake". Yeah, how many people have the savvy to remember all that, let alone do it in the correct order and to the correct degree?

3) That "slow down" thing is where you want your public service announcements.

PERSONAL NOTE: Had studded snows on a 1970 Toyota Corona wagon (RWD). It was nice.
I have 4 snows (non-studded) on my V70....highly recommended.
I've driven my friend's Outlander with 4 studded snows in snowy conditions. It was sexy.

All the time I see fools driving way too fast. It's nice to know what to do in an emergency but in the meantime, contain your aspirations and slow it down.

NOTE: BITOG superstars are exempt from this as we know everything.

Re: FWD - Death traps with miss matched tires. [Re: Fordiesel69] #5361496 02/27/20 01:12 PM
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exranger06 Offline
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This is exactly why Tire Rack recommends installing the 2 snow tires on the rear, even on front wheel drive cars. The same applies to all-season tires; for example if you're replacing only 2 tires and you'll have 2 brand new all-season tires and 2 half-worn all-seasons. The new all-seasons should go on the rear.
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=52

Quote
Intuition suggests that since the front tires wore out first and because there is still about half of the tread remaining on the rear tires, the new tires should be installed on the front axle.....
However, in this case, intuition isn't right...and following it can be downright dangerous. When tires are replaced in pairs in situations like these, the new tires should always be installed on the rear axle and the partially worn tires moved to the front. New tires on the rear axle help the driver more easily maintain control on wet roads since deeper treaded tires are better at resisting hydroplaning.....
...If the front tires have significantly less tread depth than the rear tires, the front tires will begin to hydroplane and lose traction on wet roads before the rear tires. While this will cause the vehicle to understeer (the vehicle wants to continue driving straight ahead), understeer is relatively easy to control because releasing the gas pedal will slow the vehicle and help the driver maintain control.

However, if the front tires have significantly more tread depth than the rear tires, the rear tires will begin to hydroplane and lose traction on wet roads before the fronts. This will cause the vehicle to oversteer (the vehicle will want to spin). Oversteer is far more difficult to control and in addition to the initial distress felt when the rear of the car starts sliding, quickly releasing the gas pedal in an attempt to slow down may actually make it more difficult for the driver to regain control, possibly causing a complete spinout.


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Re: FWD - Death traps with miss matched tires. [Re: atikovi] #5361516 02/27/20 01:45 PM
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Astro14 Offline
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Originally Posted by atikovi
Originally Posted by Fordiesel69
If you place 2 nice studded snow tires on the front axle of a FWD vehicle, and leave your all season tires on the rear, the back end will get loose on you when you let OFF the gas pedal. When you try to correct the issue or hit the brakes, it will make it worse. The only way to recover is to step hard on the gas and steer away to the direction you want it to recover.


How about, just not driving too fast for the conditions that cause you to lose control to begin with? Then you will be fine with all season tires all around.


How about you wear your wingtips with leather soles in every weather condition?

Just walk carefully, don’t go too fast.

Then you’ll be fine.

Sheesh.

All seasons have far less traction than dedicated winter tires. They have twice the stopping distance. All seasons are worthless in heavy snow and on ice.

Used to watch “flatlanders” crash all the time in Vermont. Fancy cars with AWD, Stability control, everything. But they had all season tires, so they couldn’t stop. Or turn.


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