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project farm like test for Maxlife vs toyota WS #5359982 02/25/20 06:09 PM
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danez_yoda Offline OP
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Anyone know of something like this. Maxlife is a true synthetic while WS claimed to be but doesnt clearly state it. Later found out it is not.

I would like to see the difference in controlled test to prove synthetic ATF has superior life and wear resistance compare to toyota WS.

Re: project farm like test for Maxlife vs toyota WS [Re: danez_yoda] #5360009 02/25/20 06:37 PM
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Seems a lot like you should be posting this suggestion in a youtube comment to a PF video testing oil/etc, except it would be unreasonable to expect PF would test every popular fluid in every popular transmission and use (heat) scenario, which is what it could take to get results for your application which you didn't even mention beyond a manufacturer.

DIY. If your use is running it hot, you could try the Maxlife then switch if shifting is degraded, but it seems easier to just stick with the manufacturer recommendation unless your unmentioned application is known to have tranny problems.

Last edited by Dave9; 02/25/20 06:38 PM.
Re: project farm like test for Maxlife vs toyota WS [Re: danez_yoda] #5360059 02/25/20 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by danez_yoda
Anyone know of something like this. Maxlife is a true synthetic while WS claimed to be but doesnt clearly state it. Later found out it is not.

I would like to see the difference in controlled test to prove synthetic ATF has superior life and wear resistance compare to toyota WS.


So to be clear, WS is a denomination and not proprietary to Toyota is stands for "World Standard" There are many manufacturers of WS ATF some are synthetic and some are not.
As long as it meets the WS standard you can use it. Though synthetic lubricants are generally superior to those that are not, it's not so in every application.

Re: project farm like test for Maxlife vs toyota WS [Re: danez_yoda] #5360109 02/25/20 08:10 PM
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^ No, Toyota WS is it's own thing, their latest lifetime ATF, spec'd fluid for newer vehicles the last time I checked. They spec replacement intervals rather than lifetime for towing vehicles, but we all know that eventually, no fluid is really lifetime.

Last edited by Dave9; 02/25/20 08:13 PM.
Re: project farm like test for Maxlife vs toyota WS [Re: danez_yoda] #5360152 02/25/20 08:49 PM
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Project farm does not have the expertise nor the instrumentation to carry out any transmission fluid tests.

Here, we analyzed three ATF's.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/5169998/three-atfs-analyzed#Post5169998

where Valvoline MaxLife does show it has an elevated Anti-Wear package.

Last edited by MolaKule; 02/25/20 08:49 PM.

Dr. Larry Fleinhardt: "You know, that term "dark matter" has always perplexed me. It fallaciously implies that the 95% of our universe that cannot be observed is some amorphous, eventless emptiness."
Amita Ramanujan: "I'm sorry?"
Dr. Larry Fleinhardt: "I guess it's all too human. Instead of admitting to the present limits of our knowledge, we just declare things to be unknowable." NUMB3RS
Re: project farm like test for Maxlife vs toyota WS [Re: MolaKule] #5360303 02/26/20 01:34 AM
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Exactly right ^^^^^^^^^

Real meaningful tests...


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Re: project farm like test for Maxlife vs toyota WS [Re: MolaKule] #5362088 02/28/20 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by MolaKule
Project farm does not have the expertise nor the instrumentation to carry out any transmission fluid tests.

Here, we analyzed three ATF's.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/5169998/three-atfs-analyzed#Post5169998

where Valvoline MaxLife does show it has an elevated Anti-Wear package.


Is there a similar analyze for Toyota WS?

Re: project farm like test for Maxlife vs toyota WS [Re: danez_yoda] #5362813 02/28/20 09:38 PM
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nthach Offline
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Only way to find out is to get a pair of Toyotas. One as a control with WS, and other with MaxLife. Run both cars in identical conditions(or as a cab/Uber) and do a UOA on the fluid as well as a trans teardown after 30-60K has passed.

Re: project farm like test for Maxlife vs toyota WS [Re: SoNic67] #5362855 02/28/20 10:29 PM
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MolaKule Offline
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Originally Posted by SoNic67
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Project farm does not have the expertise nor the instrumentation to carry out any transmission fluid tests.

Here, we analyzed three ATF's.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/5169998/three-atfs-analyzed#Post5169998

where Valvoline MaxLife does show it has an elevated Anti-Wear package.


Is there a similar analyze for Toyota WS?


The main focus of the Analysis and comparison was to show that even though certain fluids claim coverage or, similar operational characteristics, the analysis showed two of the chemistries to be highly disparate when compared to the Original Honda DW-1 and to warn prospective buyers that the chemistry of original Honda DW-1 was incompatible with modern Step-Shift automatics and should not be used in modern Step-Shift automatic transmissions. Each analyses would cost upwards of $500.00 if done in other than a university chemistry lab.

When formulating or qualifying ATF formulations, a multitude of bench tests are performed and then an actual set of multi-hour dyno tests are run on two or more transmissons to determine the friction characteristics of the fluids.

The transmissions are then torn down to compare new part dimensions to the tested transmission parts dimensions for wear. In some cases the weights of each of the parts are compared to determine mass loss.

So I hope you can appreciate why neither project farm has the qualifications to determine anything about ATF, nor does a simple $28 analysis determine friction coefficients, quality, or compatibility across transmission makes.

Last edited by MolaKule; 02/28/20 10:30 PM.

Dr. Larry Fleinhardt: "You know, that term "dark matter" has always perplexed me. It fallaciously implies that the 95% of our universe that cannot be observed is some amorphous, eventless emptiness."
Amita Ramanujan: "I'm sorry?"
Dr. Larry Fleinhardt: "I guess it's all too human. Instead of admitting to the present limits of our knowledge, we just declare things to be unknowable." NUMB3RS
Re: project farm like test for Maxlife vs toyota WS [Re: danez_yoda] #5363528 02/29/20 04:17 PM
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NH73 Offline
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In the hybrid world, there are people that gets worked up about dielectric strength. Saying the OEM will hold up to it, where as any aftermarket, they don't know. First of all, is this something over nothing? If so, could Maxlife holdup equally?


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Re: project farm like test for Maxlife vs toyota WS [Re: NH73] #5363550 02/29/20 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by NH73
In the hybrid world, there are people that gets worked up about dielectric strength. Saying the OEM will hold up to it, where as any aftermarket, they don't know. First of all, is this something over nothing? If so, could Maxlife holdup equally?

I never heard of making such a distinction until you mentioned it here.

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/226/dielectric-constant-oil-analysis

Although since it is relatively easy to measure it is probably one of those parameters that gets inflated importance on the Internet.


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Re: project farm like test for Maxlife vs toyota WS [Re: kschachn] #5364181 03/01/20 11:26 AM
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NH73 Offline
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Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by NH73
In the hybrid world, there are people that gets worked up about dielectric strength. Saying the OEM will hold up to it, where as any aftermarket, they don't know. First of all, is this something over nothing? If so, could Maxlife holdup equally?

I never heard of making such a distinction until you mentioned it here.

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/226/dielectric-constant-oil-analysis

Although since it is relatively easy to measure it is probably one of those parameters that gets inflated importance on the Internet.
Now that is interesting. I don't believe that hybrids use the ATF to transmit electricity or store energy. On some forums, they say they do get around at least or close to the motor windings. My guess is it does that for cooling the motor rather than for an electrical purpose. Unless someone can enlighten me of the setup, it doesn't make sense that you need to be concerned about the dielectric strength.


2017 Toyota RAV4 Hybrid
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Re: project farm like test for Maxlife vs toyota WS [Re: NH73] #5367186 03/04/20 02:34 PM
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nthach Offline
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Originally Posted by NH73
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by NH73
In the hybrid world, there are people that gets worked up about dielectric strength. Saying the OEM will hold up to it, where as any aftermarket, they don't know. First of all, is this something over nothing? If so, could Maxlife holdup equally?

I never heard of making such a distinction until you mentioned it here.

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/226/dielectric-constant-oil-analysis

Although since it is relatively easy to measure it is probably one of those parameters that gets inflated importance on the Internet.
Now that is interesting. I don't believe that hybrids use the ATF to transmit electricity or store energy. On some forums, they say they do get around at least or close to the motor windings. My guess is it does that for cooling the motor rather than for an electrical purpose. Unless someone can enlighten me of the setup, it doesn't make sense that you need to be concerned about the dielectric strength.

I've thought the motors on a Prius or any Toyota hybrid are bathed in oil. It does look like they are dry and the ATF fill is there to lube the power-split device(a planetary gear), the differential as well as any chains or bearings within the unit. There is an oil pump and a pipe as well.,

https://lusciousgarage.com/blog/gen_1_prius_transmission_repair_p3009_p3120_p3125/
https://artsautomotive.com/publications/7-hybrid/105-prius-1st-gen-repairing-an-mg2-motor/

Re: project farm like test for Maxlife vs toyota WS [Re: nthach] #5368676 03/06/20 07:09 AM
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NH73 Offline
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Thanks for all the contribution. The dielectric strength post help gave me an understanding what that is. However, with what I learned here, I cannot see that dielectric strength is important. To me, it seems that the fluid is not intended to transmit or store energy(electric) and there for lubrication and possibly cooling. Considering all that, Maxlife would be a good option to use it in a Toyota HV transaxle.


2017 Toyota RAV4 Hybrid
2004 Ford Explorer Sport Trac
2012 Gravely ZT XL 48 w/ Kawasaki FR730
Re: project farm like test for Maxlife vs toyota WS [Re: MolaKule] #5370684 03/08/20 01:48 PM
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+1

Project Farm is not a reliable source of data.

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