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When redundancy goes out the window #5356826 02/21/20 09:34 PM
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Exhaustgases Offline OP
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This was horrible, and no excuse for it. B17's came home with vertical stabilizers missing and many other parts as well. Then there was the Israeli plane that was missing a wing that flew back.
Losing all hydraulics is no excuse to lose all control ability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LOFOLoTX7w

Last edited by Exhaustgases; 02/21/20 09:34 PM.
Re: When redundancy goes out the window [Re: Exhaustgases] #5356856 02/21/20 10:21 PM
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Driz Offline
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Redundancy wouldn’t have helped them. That was caused by a faulty repair years earlier after a hard landing. They didn’t put enough rivets in the rear pressure bulkhead when they made the repair and it eventually failed. I think it was supposed to have a double row of rivets and they only used one eventually causing it to crack and blow out .
Iirc the mechanic that approved the repair killed him self when he found out the root cause of the crash. Even the Japanese authorities got into the cluster$&#@ act by forbidding USAF search and rescue who were first on scene to participate. Supposedly there were a few survivors who died while they got their act together and figured out how to get on scene.

Re: When redundancy goes out the window [Re: Exhaustgases] #5356862 02/21/20 10:26 PM
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Hombre909 Offline
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RIP to the brave, seasoned crew and passengers. Shoddy maintenance to blame, not the pilots.

Re: When redundancy goes out the window [Re: Exhaustgases] #5356864 02/21/20 10:28 PM
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samven Offline
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You would think we would learn, but those that forget the past are bound to repeat it. Now we have the 737 MAX, Drive by wire cars, companies that want robotic self driving 18 wheelers. What could go wrong. Nothing until it does.

Re: When redundancy goes out the window [Re: Exhaustgases] #5356892 02/21/20 10:58 PM
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Astro14 Offline
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If only we were still flying the B-17 and the Dc-7.

How lucky, how safe, we would all be!


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Re: When redundancy goes out the window [Re: Exhaustgases] #5356933 02/21/20 11:38 PM
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JustN89 Offline
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The issue, if I'm remembering right, was in the splicing of the bulkhead repairs (instead of replacing it as one solid piece) The mechanics that performed the repair were representatives of Boeing, and the repair was never reinspected by JAL. I work in Technical Operations for an airline and we've used this accident many times as a case study for the importance of performing repairs by the book, precise documentation of the repairs, and accurate tracking of follow up inspections. Here's a diagram of the correct way to perform the repair and how it was performed by the Boeing team.

Bulkhead_Repair.png
Re: When redundancy goes out the window [Re: JustN89] #5356973 02/22/20 01:15 AM
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edyvw Offline
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Originally Posted by JustN89
The issue, if I'm remembering right, was in the splicing of the bulkhead repairs (instead of replacing it as one solid piece) The mechanics that performed the repair were representatives of Boeing, and the repair was never reinspected by JAL. I work in Technical Operations for an airline and we've used this accident many times as a case study for the importance of performing repairs by the book, precise documentation of the repairs, and accurate tracking of follow up inspections. Here's a diagram of the correct way to perform the repair and how it was performed by the Boeing team.

I think this was done by JAL mechanics, not Boeing.


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Re: When redundancy goes out the window [Re: Exhaustgases] #5357014 02/22/20 04:15 AM
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Olas Offline
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weld, dont rivet.

Re: When redundancy goes out the window [Re: Olas] #5357072 02/22/20 07:41 AM
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djb Offline
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Originally Posted by Olas
weld, dont rivet.


Errrm, how much welded aluminum do you see in airframe construction? For this type of structure, none. The thin material is very difficult to weld, and it can't be properly re-hardened in-situ.

Re: When redundancy goes out the window [Re: djb] #5357154 02/22/20 09:48 AM
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Astro14 Offline
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Originally Posted by djb
Originally Posted by Olas
weld, dont rivet.


Errrm, how much welded aluminum do you see in airframe construction? For this type of structure, none. The thin material is very difficult to weld, and it can't be properly re-hardened in-situ.


Don't you understand! We need to weld airplanes from strong steel, not this thin aluminum! We need to bring back piston driven propellers for safety! We need control cables, not this stupid hydraulic control system! Round dials! No computers!

There is no excuse for not having all steel, welded airframes controlled by cables, powered by pistons, and instrumented by mechanical components!

You guys can keep feeding the troll if you like.

I'm done giving serious answers to inflammatory, trolling posts.

Last edited by Astro14; 02/22/20 09:52 AM.

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Re: When redundancy goes out the window [Re: Astro14] #5357159 02/22/20 09:52 AM
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4WD Offline
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HaHa … Totally agree … only on washing machines
Boeing needs a composite single aisle FBW with P&W PP’s as the 797

Re: When redundancy goes out the window [Re: djb] #5357185 02/22/20 10:23 AM
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Cujet Offline
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Originally Posted by djb
Originally Posted by Olas
weld, dont rivet.


Errrm, how much welded aluminum do you see in airframe construction? For this type of structure, none. The thin material is very difficult to weld, and it can't be properly re-hardened in-situ.



I believe the Eclipse jet used friction stir welding on some wing and fuselage structures. I've not had a chance to deal with this design.

[Linked Image from image1.slideserve.com]


People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence.
Re: When redundancy goes out the window [Re: edyvw] #5357203 02/22/20 10:47 AM
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JustN89 Offline
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Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by JustN89
The issue, if I'm remembering right, was in the splicing of the bulkhead repairs (instead of replacing it as one solid piece) The mechanics that performed the repair were representatives of Boeing, and the repair was never reinspected by JAL. I work in Technical Operations for an airline and we've used this accident many times as a case study for the importance of performing repairs by the book, precise documentation of the repairs, and accurate tracking of follow up inspections. Here's a diagram of the correct way to perform the repair and how it was performed by the Boeing team.

I think this was done by JAL mechanics, not Boeing.

No, the repair was done by a team of Boeing specialists, not by JAL mechanics.

"'We examined the aft pressure bulkhead at the site of the crash of Flight 123 and determined that a relatively small section of the bulkhead splice, approximately 17 percent of it, was not correctly assembled during a repair which Boeing made after a 1978 landing incident,' the company advisory said."
Link

Last edited by JustN89; 02/22/20 10:49 AM. Reason: Substantiation
Re: When redundancy goes out the window [Re: Exhaustgases] #5357222 02/22/20 11:03 AM
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mk378 Offline
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Designs don't consider that an incident initiated by in-flight failure of a fixed structural element needs to be survivable. That is something that simply must never happen.

Re: When redundancy goes out the window [Re: Astro14] #5357228 02/22/20 11:10 AM
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PimTac Offline
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Originally Posted by Astro14
Originally Posted by djb
Originally Posted by Olas
weld, dont rivet.


Errrm, how much welded aluminum do you see in airframe construction? For this type of structure, none. The thin material is very difficult to weld, and it can't be properly re-hardened in-situ.


Don't you understand! We need to weld airplanes from strong steel, not this thin aluminum! We need to bring back piston driven propellers for safety! We need control cables, not this stupid hydraulic control system! Round dials! No computers!

There is no excuse for not having all steel, welded airframes controlled by cables, powered by pistons, and instrumented by mechanical components!

You guys can keep feeding the troll if you like.

I'm done giving serious answers to inflammatory, trolling posts.




Wait until it delves into carbon fiber construction and why we shouldn’t have plastic airplanes.

🎣 🎹🎶


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