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Re: 2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil [Re: pleopard] #5353292 02/18/20 12:13 AM
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Cdn17Sport6MT Offline
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As mentioned in an earlier post - my sense is there are variations in the feel of any two manual transmission cars... and not just in the feel... but in the synchro performance between the two. Buying even a brand new 5mt or 6mt car can be a crapp shoot. Just try to find the best fluid for your car + perform some personal adaptations to your drive routine to compensate a bit... and I say this knowing that when at full op. temp it shifts fine. It doesn't have a knackered synchro... just a slightly inferior performing one compared to the other Corolla you tested.


Mazda6 GX (Sport in the 'States), 6MT, 2017
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (Euro version), 1985
Honda Civic Si (EX 2 dr. in the 'States), A/T, 1997
Toyota Camry CE, 5MT, 1999
VW (Type2) Kombi, 4MT, 1979
Re: 2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil [Re: Cdn17Sport6MT] #5353492 02/18/20 10:16 AM
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pleopard Offline OP
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Agreed. -16C this morning and I decided to plug the block heater in for 4 hours. I’m sure the extra heat helped, in addition to my more slow and purposeful shifts into 2nd. The roughness is certainly still there but I think my adaptations are helping.

That being said, I’m now strongly considering a switch to Redline MT-LV 70W/75W. The only thing that gives me pause is that if that fluid makes things worse, switching yet again back to the Toyota fluid will really cost me. My dealer charges $85/L for the stuff. However, there are one or two Corolla hatch owners on Toyotanation that switched to the RL MT-LV and they claim it improved the shift quality.

Re: 2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil [Re: pleopard] #5354048 02/18/20 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by pleopard
Country Hills Toyota is also telling me it shifts fine when cold. This means one of two things - they’re outright lying to me or it really is normal for these Corolla manuals to be quite rough.



What you should do is have the tech or manager ride along with you in your car and an identical car on the lot at this other dealer. I bet any amount of money that your car is outside of what is normal, maybe not by a lot but enough to be a drivability issue.

As for manual transmissions being a crap shoot when purchasing this just isn't true and hasn't be for decades. The truth is that most dealerships are
incredibly lazy, and most will lie if they think the customer will tolerate it. I will not. Don't accept this.

I've been trying to find complaints similar to yours around the web and I can't find any to speak of, of course the manual isn't very popular but there are still quite a few out there, and I don't see any similar complaints, I'd wager you have a problem vehicle.

Re: 2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil [Re: pleopard] #5354096 02/19/20 12:58 AM
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To the OP, you might want to watch the embedded YouTube video by Redline. They do not speak about the MT-LV 70W-75 product, as that is the most recent one... but still, it is useful to listen to this info. Interesting, in that hinted-at within the video is a comment about Racers at times wanting to go to a bit heavier viscosity product for more gear tooth protection... so this echos what VW says, re the balance between synchro smoothness and overall balance-of-transmission-component longevity. Having said this, I would NOT stray from the Mfr's recommended SAE viscosity... nominally 75W (or, 70W-75... i.e. that is not a problem). I say this because, say, in the case of my Mazda - the speed-gears run on splined journals - with radially-fed oil holes... not on half-shell-caged needle bearings (like my Camry 5MT does). On the Mazda the shafting that has spine-type speed-gear journals is fed by an "oil-funnel" splash-lube trough system. Playing with a higher viscosity MTF could potentially negatively affect the ability of said system to properly lubricate the speed-gears with this design of oil delivery system. Not sure what the Aisin-Warner trans is like, in your Corolla. (Not 100% sure it is an Aisin-Warner... either). In any case Do Not play around with viscosities beyond what the Mfr. recommends!

https://www.redlineoil.com/mt-lv-70w75w

Cheers

Last edited by Cdn17Sport6MT; 02/19/20 01:11 AM.

Mazda6 GX (Sport in the 'States), 6MT, 2017
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (Euro version), 1985
Honda Civic Si (EX 2 dr. in the 'States), A/T, 1997
Toyota Camry CE, 5MT, 1999
VW (Type2) Kombi, 4MT, 1979
Re: 2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil [Re: pleopard] #5354097 02/19/20 12:59 AM
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pleopard Offline OP
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AC1DD, I’ve seen a couple complaints about hard or notchy shifts when cold on this car. It seems the Honda folks have it even worse.

I drove around with the shop manager on my first visit (first of four now) after the car sat overnight. Watching him shift, it was clear he wasn’t having any issues. It baffled me. I’ve driven plenty of manuals, so it’s not as though I’m inexperienced, and when the car is not freezing cold I have no issues.

Quite maddening, but I’m going to change the fluid to Redline assuming the dealer won’t void my warranty for some silly reason.



Last edited by pleopard; 02/19/20 01:02 AM.
Re: 2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil [Re: pleopard] #5354100 02/19/20 01:09 AM
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Cdn17Sport6MT Offline
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Originally Posted by pleopard
AC1DD, I’ve seen a couple complaints about hard or notchy shifts when cold on this car. It seems the Honda folks have it even worse.

I drove around with the shop manager on my first visit (first of four now) after the car sat overnight. Watching him shift, it was clear he wasn’t having any issues. It baffled me. I’ve driven plenty of manuals, so it’s not as though I’m inexperienced, and when the car is not freezing cold I have no issues.

Quite maddening, but I’m going to change the fluid to Redline assuming the dealer won’t void my warranty for some silly reason.




Did he double-clutch, first-to-second? I can avert all crunchiness by really-accurately double-clutching 1st to 2nd...


Mazda6 GX (Sport in the 'States), 6MT, 2017
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (Euro version), 1985
Honda Civic Si (EX 2 dr. in the 'States), A/T, 1997
Toyota Camry CE, 5MT, 1999
VW (Type2) Kombi, 4MT, 1979
Re: 2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil [Re: Cdn17Sport6MT] #5354103 02/19/20 01:17 AM
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pleopard Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Cdn17Sport6MT
To the OP, you might want to watch the embedded YouTube video by Redline. They do not speak about the MT-LV 70W-75 product, as that is the most recent one... but still, it is useful to listen to this info. Interesting, in that hinted-at within the video is a comment about Racers at times wanting to go to a bit heavier viscosity product for more gear tooth protection... so this echos what VW says, re the balance between synchro smoothness and overall balance-of-transmission-component longevity. Having said this, I would NOT stray from the Mfr's recommended SAE viscosity... nominally 75W (or, 70W-75... i.e. that is not a problem). I say this because, say, in the case of my Mazda - the speed-gears run on splined journals - with radially-fed oil holes... not on half-shell-caged needle bearings (like my Camry 5MT does). On the Mazda the shafting that has spine-type speed-gear journals is fed by an "oil-funnel" splash-lube trough system. Playing with a higher viscosity MTF could potentially negatively affect the ability of said system to properly lubricate the speed-gears with this design of oil delivery system. Not sure what the Aisin-Warner trans is like, in your Corolla. (Not 100% sure it is an Aisin-Warner... either). In any case Do Not play around with viscosities beyond what the Mfr. recommends!

https://www.redlineoil.com/mt-lv-70w75w

Cheers


The trade-off between protection and shift quality is an interesting one indeed and something I suspect may be a factor in this case. I guess we’ll see - might take 5-10 years of otherwise trouble-free operation before I can conclude that. :-). Now, if I do end up putting RL MT-LV in and the transmission fails after a few years, I’ll never know for sure if I should blame Toyota or RL. Haha. Seriously, all I can do now is laugh. Frustrating.

It’s not clear if it’s an AW transmission. Toyota says it’s their all-new design, but Toyota is so tightly linked to AW that it’s likely AW.

Re: 2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil [Re: pleopard] #5354116 02/19/20 02:03 AM
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Yes, indeed, that might be the time-frame a person would need to wait - to see those results.

Related, I found a 2002 dated discussion by Redlne... which includes their MTL product (which of course was in existence at that time). The tech matters discussed, here, speak of the modified and higher coefficient of friction that their transmission and transaxle lubricants are imbued with. They also talk about stick/slip phenomena - causing synchro notchiness. I found it interesting. I will attempt to attach it.

Cheers!

Attached PDF document

Mazda6 GX (Sport in the 'States), 6MT, 2017
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (Euro version), 1985
Honda Civic Si (EX 2 dr. in the 'States), A/T, 1997
Toyota Camry CE, 5MT, 1999
VW (Type2) Kombi, 4MT, 1979
Re: 2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil [Re: pleopard] #5359282 02/24/20 09:04 PM
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Mike L. V. Offline
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I have a 2019 Corolla XSE 6M and I haven't experienced any harshness or rough shifts in the cold in nearly 9K miles. Coldest my car has seen was 15°F which is cold but not brutal. It sounds like you could have a mechanical issue. I leave the iMT on 24/7 and the car shifts, rev-matches and drives very well.

My last 5 cars have been manual transmissions and the 2019 XSE feels just as smooth if not smoother than my 2002 Celica, 2015 Fiesta ST, and 2017 Focus RS.

I would find another dealership or go back and have Toyota remove the Mobil fluid and replace it with the original Toyota fluid at no cost. Sounds like the dealership wanted to get you out of their hair and did a fluid dump and fill to document something. The fluid they installed isn't to Toyotas spec and you shouldn't be changing it out of your pocket. You've got a warranty and it's possible something isn't mechanically sounds.

Re: 2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil [Re: Mike L. V.] #5359406 02/25/20 01:02 AM
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The original poster DOES, now, have the OEM specified Toyota-branded oil back in there... 75W. So I understand that he is assessing it currently.

Certainly, 15F is cold enough to exhibit cold shifting behaviour - and it is notable that yours is not rough. Having said this, and also, reading the Redline paper, a couple of posts up, about cold-shifting roughness, etc.... it appears that notwithstanding your- and Others experience of having very smooth synchro's - still, cold roughness is quite common. I do know it is really common in a Subaru BRS / Toyota 86 / Scion (whatever its model-designation-is).

Good that you have one that shifts smoothly.


Mazda6 GX (Sport in the 'States), 6MT, 2017
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (Euro version), 1985
Honda Civic Si (EX 2 dr. in the 'States), A/T, 1997
Toyota Camry CE, 5MT, 1999
VW (Type2) Kombi, 4MT, 1979
Re: 2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil [Re: pleopard] #5359662 02/25/20 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by pleopard


The trade-off between protection and shift quality is an interesting one indeed and something I suspect may be a factor in this case. I guess we’ll see - might take 5-10 years of otherwise trouble-free operation before I can conclude that. :-). Now, if I do end up putting RL MT-LV in and the transmission fails after a few years, I’ll never know for sure if I should blame Toyota or RL. Haha. Seriously, all I can do now is laugh. Frustrating.

It’s not clear if it’s an AW transmission. Toyota says it’s their all-new design, but Toyota is so tightly linked to AW that it’s likely AW.



After reading your entire thread, other than the dealer screw up -- which can take a few fluid changes to correct, don't ask me how I know that wink -- it seems that really what you need is a fluid with better cold viscometrics than what came with your car. I've been driving manual transmission vehicles for my entire life, and living in Canada (albeit not regularly as cold as where you are), I've had cold shifting issues with almost every car I've owned except my current Benz C300 (which shifts beautifully in extreme cold, almost unbelievable really). I've also driven many VW's which seem to shift well in cold temps also. And the main difference I can see across the German brands rather than everything else is the use of very high quality and very THIN gear oil for the transmission. Also, they tend to use fluids with the most stable viscometrics, in other words, fully synthetic fluids with great basestocks that don't thicken up as much as the temp really falls.

So what I would try and what I've had luck with in the past with my previous vehicles is to select the best synthetic fluid you can find and start trying them one by one until you find one that you like. Obviously you can't make up for shortcomings in the transmission design, but you can try to make it as good as it can be with the best fluid for the application and weather conditions.

Redline MT-LV looks to be a great choice. Castrol also has some fully synthetic 75W manual transmission fluids that are available in Europe (I'm sure for a price you can have them shipped over). By memory they are Castrol Syntrans FE 75W, and Castrol Syntrans B 75W.

You should look for the lowest Brookfield viscosity numbers for extreme cold performance, as well as lowest 40 C KV numbers. And don't worry about transmission failure, you will not cause any damage to your transmission. After all, it was already shipped with 75W fluid in it, so technically you're replacing it with another fluid of the same viscosity grade anyway (perhaps just thinner within the grade). Also, anecdotally, I can tell you that in previous transmissions that specified thicker fluid, I've used low viscosity fluids with great success and for hundreds of thousands of km's without issue or failure of any kind.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.


il_signore97
'09 Mercedes-Benz C300 Sport Calcite White 6-spd M/T
Re: 2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil [Re: il_signore97] #5359898 02/25/20 04:23 PM
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Cdn17Sport6MT Offline
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Originally Posted by il_signore97
Originally Posted by pleopard


The trade-off between protection and shift quality is an interesting one indeed and something I suspect may be a factor in this case. I guess we’ll see - might take 5-10 years of otherwise trouble-free operation before I can conclude that. :-). Now, if I do end up putting RL MT-LV in and the transmission fails after a few years, I’ll never know for sure if I should blame Toyota or RL. Haha. Seriously, all I can do now is laugh. Frustrating.

It’s not clear if it’s an AW transmission. Toyota says it’s their all-new design, but Toyota is so tightly linked to AW that it’s likely AW.



After reading your entire thread, other than the dealer screw up -- which can take a few fluid changes to correct, don't ask me how I know that wink -- it seems that really what you need is a fluid with better cold viscometrics than what came with your car. I've been driving manual transmission vehicles for my entire life, and living in Canada (albeit not regularly as cold as where you are), I've had cold shifting issues with almost every car I've owned except my current Benz C300 (which shifts beautifully in extreme cold, almost unbelievable really). I've also driven many VW's which seem to shift well in cold temps also. And the main difference I can see across the German brands rather than everything else is the use of very high quality and very THIN gear oil for the transmission. Also, they tend to use fluids with the most stable viscometrics, in other words, fully synthetic fluids with great basestocks that don't thicken up as much as the temp really falls.

So what I would try and what I've had luck with in the past with my previous vehicles is to select the best synthetic fluid you can find and start trying them one by one until you find one that you like. Obviously you can't make up for shortcomings in the transmission design, but you can try to make it as good as it can be with the best fluid for the application and weather conditions.

Redline MT-LV looks to be a great choice. Castrol also has some fully synthetic 75W manual transmission fluids that are available in Europe (I'm sure for a price you can have them shipped over). By memory they are Castrol Syntrans FE 75W, and Castrol Syntrans B 75W.

You should look for the lowest Brookfield viscosity numbers for extreme cold performance, as well as lowest 40 C KV numbers. And don't worry about transmission failure, you will not cause any damage to your transmission. After all, it was already shipped with 75W fluid in it, so technically you're replacing it with another fluid of the same viscosity grade anyway (perhaps just thinner within the grade). Also, anecdotally, I can tell you that in previous transmissions that specified thicker fluid, I've used low viscosity fluids with great success and for hundreds of thousands of km's without issue or failure of any kind.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Very well-put; and with, it is obvious, first-hand experience to back it up. And I hasten to reinforce your point that within a given SAE rating, there is a RANGE of viscosities that meet that SAE rating.... so searching for the lower or lowest viscosity in the grouping that still meets the SAE rating would be smart. Also, great comments about the high quality base-stock, stable viscosity at low temps.

And, re the search for the range of products within the SAE viscosity grouping, see MolaKule's white paper, link above (I believe), for the listing of products.

Last edited by Cdn17Sport6MT; 02/25/20 04:31 PM.

Mazda6 GX (Sport in the 'States), 6MT, 2017
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (Euro version), 1985
Honda Civic Si (EX 2 dr. in the 'States), A/T, 1997
Toyota Camry CE, 5MT, 1999
VW (Type2) Kombi, 4MT, 1979
Re: 2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil [Re: Mike L. V.] #5359906 02/25/20 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by mv6845
I have a 2019 Corolla XSE 6M and I haven't experienced any harshness or rough shifts in the cold in nearly 9K miles. Coldest my car has seen was 15°F which is cold but not brutal. It sounds like you could have a mechanical issue. I leave the iMT on 24/7 and the car shifts, rev-matches and drives very well.

My last 5 cars have been manual transmissions and the 2019 XSE feels just as smooth if not smoother than my 2002 Celica, 2015 Fiesta ST, and 2017 Focus RS.

I would find another dealership or go back and have Toyota remove the Mobil fluid and replace it with the original Toyota fluid at no cost. Sounds like the dealership wanted to get you out of their hair and did a fluid dump and fill to document something. The fluid they installed isn't to Toyotas spec and you shouldn't be changing it out of your pocket. You've got a warranty and it's possible something isn't mechanically sounds.


It's pretty clear that the OP has a problem vehicle and the dealership was trying to weasel out of actually remedying it by changing the gear oil.

I don't know why he hasn't contacted Toyota Canada and opened up a ticket on this. It's way past due for that.
The faster he gets this documented at corporate the more likely the problem will be solved, or at least they will extend his warranty.

Re: 2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil [Re: pleopard] #5359938 02/25/20 05:19 PM
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Use GM Synchromesh fluid. Pennzoil makes it too. Your shifts will be a lot better.


12 Chevy Silverado ext. cab LS, 2WD 4.3 auto
18 Mustang GT 5.0 auto
07 Harley Dyna Street Bob 96 c.i. 6 sp.
00 Mustang GT auto
Re: 2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil [Re: il_signore97] #5360043 02/25/20 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by il_signore97
Originally Posted by pleopard


The trade-off between protection and shift quality is an interesting one indeed and something I suspect may be a factor in this case. I guess we’ll see - might take 5-10 years of otherwise trouble-free operation before I can conclude that. :-). Now, if I do end up putting RL MT-LV in and the transmission fails after a few years, I’ll never know for sure if I should blame Toyota or RL. Haha. Seriously, all I can do now is laugh. Frustrating.

It’s not clear if it’s an AW transmission. Toyota says it’s their all-new design, but Toyota is so tightly linked to AW that it’s likely AW.



After reading your entire thread, other than the dealer screw up -- which can take a few fluid changes to correct, don't ask me how I know that wink -- it seems that really what you need is a fluid with better cold viscometrics than what came with your car. I've been driving manual transmission vehicles for my entire life, and living in Canada (albeit not regularly as cold as where you are), I've had cold shifting issues with almost every car I've owned except my current Benz C300 (which shifts beautifully in extreme cold, almost unbelievable really). I've also driven many VW's which seem to shift well in cold temps also. And the main difference I can see across the German brands rather than everything else is the use of very high quality and very THIN gear oil for the transmission. Also, they tend to use fluids with the most stable viscometrics, in other words, fully synthetic fluids with great basestocks that don't thicken up as much as the temp really falls.

So what I would try and what I've had luck with in the past with my previous vehicles is to select the best synthetic fluid you can find and start trying them one by one until you find one that you like. Obviously you can't make up for shortcomings in the transmission design, but you can try to make it as good as it can be with the best fluid for the application and weather conditions.

Redline MT-LV looks to be a great choice. Castrol also has some fully synthetic 75W manual transmission fluids that are available in Europe (I'm sure for a price you can have them shipped over). By memory they are Castrol Syntrans FE 75W, and Castrol Syntrans B 75W.

You should look for the lowest Brookfield viscosity numbers for extreme cold performance, as well as lowest 40 C KV numbers. And don't worry about transmission failure, you will not cause any damage to your transmission. After all, it was already shipped with 75W fluid in it, so technically you're replacing it with another fluid of the same viscosity grade anyway (perhaps just thinner within the grade). Also, anecdotally, I can tell you that in previous transmissions that specified thicker fluid, I've used low viscosity fluids with great success and for hundreds of thousands of km's without issue or failure of any kind.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Spot on evaluation/assessment .

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