How long does it take to get good with a manual transmission?

[OppositeLocK]

Just thought I'd update this thread...

Less than a year later and 10,000+ miles, I feel like I'm a pro. Heel-toe, double-clutch, entering gears smoothly... have it all down. I rev match every gear and I rarely ever get any forward or backward motion when changing gears. I'm trying to now get down left-foot braking combined with a heel-toe double clutch but feels like I'll never be able to do that sequence smoothly.

I'll never go back to automatic, I find manual so much better.

 

[jeepman3071]

I think it depends a lot on the vehicle. Something like my Jeep Wrangler 4.0 is easy to learn on because it has low end torque. You could start out in 2nd gear if you wanted to, and it isn't a super easy vehicle to stall. The same thing is true on something like a diesel truck with lower gearing. A little 4 cylinder like a Honda Civic that makes all of it's power in the higher RPM range is tougher to learn on. A lot of newer cars also have hill assist so you won't roll backwards which is probably the most challenging part about learning manual in my experience, because it makes people nervous. One of the hardest manual vehicles I've driven was actually a friend's 4 cylinder Ford Ranger. The truck was decently heavy, the engine had very little low end torque, and it was higher mileage so the clutch engagement was a bit finicky at times.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by jeepman3071
I think it depends a lot on the vehicle. Something like my Jeep Wrangler 4.0 is easy to learn on because it has low end torque. You could start out in 2nd gear if you wanted to, and it isn't a super easy vehicle to stall. The same thing is true on something like a diesel truck with lower gearing. A little 4 cylinder like a Honda Civic that makes all of it's power in the higher RPM range is tougher to learn on. A lot of newer cars also have hill assist so you won't roll backwards which is probably the most challenging part about learning manual in my experience, because it makes people nervous. One of the hardest manual vehicles I've driven was actually a friend's 4 cylinder Ford Ranger. The truck was decently heavy, the engine had very little low end torque, and it was higher mileage so the clutch engagement was a bit finicky at times.

This is absolutely correct. I taught both my daughters how to drive a manual transmission and it is definitely easier in a more powerful car such as my BMW rather than my little ECHO. Some cars can almost start off at idle or make it up steep hills in a higher gear whereas you have to do a lot more thinking ahead and about energy management in the ECHO. You can't just put it in fifth gear and forget about it around town.

 

[Olas]

if the linkages and/or cables are in good condition and properly adjusted it should only take 3 or 4 hours of seat time to be able to HnT perfectly smoothly.
This assumes you are confident with manuals and clutch control. If you have only driven auto it will take more like 10-15 hours seat time

 

[demarpaint]

Some people can master it quickly, others never get it. I remember selling a new Civic to a girl who never drove a stick, but she insisted on buying one. Within 500 miles she had it in the shop for a clutch job.

 

[Astro14]

Yeah... for some drivers, the answer to "How long does it take to learn?" is "the life of a clutch"...

 

[Olas]

anyone with any knowledge or understanding of mechanics and/or engineering should be able to grasp the concept quickly and understand how to operate the system. putting into practice takes the same time as learning any other skill - co-ordination of ears and feet and butt is the key to clutch control.

 

[supton]

I wouldn't sweat over learning heel-toe shifting. Might be fun to do, I'm not sure, I've never learned how.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted by OppositeLocK
Hello friends, been a while since I posted; been really busy with work and life, haven't had a chance to drive it much either. Thank you to everyone who posted, I appreciated reading your tips, stories, and experiences.

Well, I drove it a good 100 miles today, in busier traffic too. Still not perfect all the time but a [censored] of a lot smoother. I've stopped stalling, and I've even started rev-matching. My downshifts are silky smooth now (you don't even feel that I changed gears). Honestly, I've never thought a shift could be that smooth (even in all the autos I've driven). That 1-2 shift is still tricky as [censored] on this car, but all the other ones are a lot better. Even starting doesn't give me much problems. The hill assist is a great feature and an important one because there are a lot of tailgating jacknuts around me. I'm still not quick (especially from a start), but I am smooth, which I think is better and more important to be in the start; the speed will pick up over time. Only thing I'm still finding extremely difficult is heel-toe. Can't figure out how to twist my leg properly to do it.

Ultimately, I think my biggest fear was destroying my brand new car, that I was using no throttle (trying not to burn the clutch). Now, giving it some gas and effectively "launching" the car from say about 2-2.5K RPM gets you a very nice start. Also, holding the clutch on the biting point for a little longer that I was (at all shifts); before I was letting up way too quick and that was the root of all my problems. You can bring it up to the biting point as quickly as you'd like, but you gotta hold it there until it connects nicely.

Still don't want to drive this in rush hour until I'm a master.


If you're launching it from 2.0 - 2.5K, you're slipping the life right out of that clutch.

Super smooth.

No stalling.

And frying the friction surfaces all the while.

Sounds like your up shifts and downshifts are similar.

If the clutch pedal is pushed all the way in, no wear on the friction surfaces, just a bit of wear on the pilot and throw out bearing.

If the pedal is midway, then there's wear from it slipping. Holding it at the engagement point, especially, is causing wear as long as it's there.

If the pedal is fully released, there's zero wear taking place.

Your goal is to minimize the time it spends slipping. Minimize the time your foot is on it. You may be smooth, but you're not yet mastering this....

 

[skyactiv]

I taught my 23 tear old neice how to drive a manual. She mastered it in one weekend. She now drives a Civic Si

 

[Pew]

Originally Posted by Astro14

If you're launching it from 2.0 - 2.5K, you're slipping the life right out of that clutch.


Yep, #1 reason why people fry the clutches on evos so fast is they slip the clutch at way to high of an RPM then complain how the oem clutch doesn't last more than 30K miles. Hopefully the OP is able to get the car going from a lower RPM since it's been a year. But learning how to drive manual and then going to heel-toe all within a year/10K miles is a good improvement in my book. A lot of people [in my experience] can't shift smoothly and jerk the car around too much.

 

[02SE]

My oldest sister has been driving manual transmission cars for over 30 years. She's still not good at it, and refuses to learn good technique.

Needless to say she doesn't drive our manual trans equipped cars.

 

[supton]

I swear, my wife's old 2001 Civic really DID need to be rev'd to 2k to take off from a stop. Gutless motor. Well maybe it was ok in the upper rev range, but it was truly the first car that I could not let the clutch out on and have it slowly move. [What do you expect, the lugnuts need more torque than the engine develops.]

Now anything else, yeah, a normal takeoff from a stop should be lower rpm. A fast take-off, even higher rpm is needed--but let's be clear, it comes at the expense of life. The more torque being transferred while slipping, the more wear occuring.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by supton
I swear, my wife's old 2001 Civic really DID need to be rev'd to 2k to take off from a stop. Gutless motor. Well maybe it was ok in the upper rev range, but it was truly the first car that I could not let the clutch out on and have it slowly move. [What do you expect, the lugnuts need more torque than the engine develops.]

Nice, I had to go check and see how much torque my 1NZ-FE develops. It is higher than the lug nut torque

And same on my ECHO, there is no way to start off at idle no matter how much you slip the clutch. It will stall.

 

[nthach]

I rarely drive a stick these days, I find Honda ones are easy for me to get the hang of. VWs I stall or smoke the clutch. But oddly enough, I drove a Mini Cooper S without stalling.

 

[Malo83]

Originally Posted by JohnnyJohnson
Way back in the day I taught my daughters to drive they had it down in one day including starting out from a stop on a good hill.


I learned when I was 14/15 on a 57 Ford with a three on the tree, in a day I was comfortable driving thru the gears, taught my daughter in a 07 Saturn ION manual, by the end of the day she was out and about with her new found freedom, it's really not that hard but some people get intimidated trying to synch up the gas and clutch pedals, like others have said get out there and drive.

 

[il_signore97]

Originally Posted by Pew
Originally Posted by Astro14

If you're launching it from 2.0 - 2.5K, you're slipping the life right out of that clutch.


Yep, #1 reason why people fry the clutches on evos so fast is they slip the clutch at way to high of an RPM then complain how the oem clutch doesn't last more than 30K miles. Hopefully the OP is able to get the car going from a lower RPM since it's been a year. But learning how to drive manual and then going to heel-toe all within a year/10K miles is a good improvement in my book. A lot of people [in my experience] can't shift smoothly and jerk the car around too much.



Agreed...

To the OP, kudos to you for choosing a manual transmission vehicle and learning how to drive it on your own. It's a great skill to have as it's a dying art in North America. Nothing beats the satisfaction of making better shifts than an automatic can do, and perfectly rev matching downshifts. Double clutching downshifts si also fun and satisfying.

However, definitely do NOT make it a habit of starting from a dead stop using 2-2.5k RPM. That is detrimental to clutch life and is completely unnecessary unless you need to move very quickly (i.e. emergency, racing, etc). I generally do not exceed 1k when starting from a dead stop, even on hills, and I'm off the clutch in about a second or so once the vehicle (wheel) speed equates to 1k rpm based on the ratio of 1st gear. In traffic, I generally don't even use the gas pedal and just take the clutch out slowly and let the car idle along on its own.

There are a lot of skilled and helpful people here, so definitely come back for advice if/when necessary. Enjoy your ride!

 

[OppositeLocK]

Biggest thing that threw me off was rev hang and hill assist. I've figured this car out now though. Everyone who drives with me thinks I've been driving manual my whole life.

Only thing I can't do in it now is a left foot brake double clutch heel toe rev match.

 

[2strokeNorthstar]

I would say never. There is always a challenge somewhere lurking. I still stall my S2000 once in a while and been daily driving a manual for 20+ years

 

[Rmay635703]

Most modern cars are super simple
Rev hang sucks

My first thought is the op wants to only power shift no clutch rev matching

I used to be able to do that on my Cobalt but after driving a Honda stick wouldn’t dare try now.

I’ve had over 300000 miles on the original clutch in a vehicle so I think technique can help, if gas prices would have stayed high my natural car progression would have been majorly different

Ah well