New 18’ YZF-R1 and Yamalube 15w-50

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted by Bonz
Yamaha has a high boron count in that oil. In layman's terms, what exactly does boron accomplish?
Boron is your detergent / dispersant additive and antifreeze inhibitor... its not an anti wear additive...

As in an inhibitor to the damaging effects of glycols in motor oil? How does that work?

 

[Bonz]

Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted by Bonz
Yamaha has a high boron count in that oil. In layman's terms, what exactly does boron accomplish?
Boron is your detergent / dispersant additive and antifreeze inhibitor... its not an anti wear additive...

As in an inhibitor to the damaging effects of glycols in motor oil? How does that work?


^^^ I would ask the same question... ^^^

I posed two thoughts in my question a few posts back. I am pretty sure one or both of them is part or most of the answer. Just wanting to confirm/deny how boron contributes to protection whether it be at low speeds and low loads or high speed and high load or if it makes a boundary layer in general and reduces friction, or other things in addition to those just mentioned.

But glycol protection and no anti-wear function? I would like the explanation of how that works as well. Never seen boron referred to in any writing as protecting from glycol contamination and not having anti-wear properties.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Quote Blackstone Labs on how to read your report...

"Additives
Molybdenum: Anti-wear additive, some types of rings
Manganese: Trace element, additive in some gasoline
Boron: Detergent/dispersant additive, antifreeze inhibitors
Calcium: Detergent/dispersant additive
Magnesium: Detergent/dispersant additive
Phosphorus: Anti-wear additive
Zinc: Anti-wear additive
Barium: Detergent/dispersant additive used in some synthetics"

Contact them for more answers... https://www.blackstone-labs.com/contact/

 

[Bonz]

Blackstone is the last authority I'd go for that information. There are other reputable studies that are easily found showing anti-wear and no mention of antifreeze inhibitor.
Other sources actually say boron can be a sign you have antifreeze in your oil because boron is used in antifreeze as an additive!

.

I am sure Blackstone messed up on that one. I believe what they're trying to say is it is an antifreeze inhibitor in the sense it helps to prevent corrosion in cooling systems. If you have it in your oil you may have antifreeze in there.

 

[Mackelroy]

Yeah that's very expensive oil, for what you get, atleast a Redline would come with a substanially better ad pack

 

[jeff78]

Originally Posted by Bonz
Other sources actually say boron can be a sign you have antifreeze in your oil because boron is used in antifreeze as an additive!


That's the problem with UOA's by themselves - they only show the amounts of the elements and not the specific compounds which they may be a part of. So there's no way to tell where they're coming from.

However...if you've done a VOA on a particular oil first, then you have a baseline. If virgin Yamalube starts out with very little boron, then the 346ppm on that UOA is telling you something.

 

[Bonz]

I agree overall with what you're saying. In the uoa there's high boron with no other indications for coolant. I would suspect the boron is a part of the formulation and used for anti-wear properties replacing zinc.

 

[soko]

Originally Posted by jeff78
Originally Posted by Bonz
Other sources actually say boron can be a sign you have antifreeze in your oil because boron is used in antifreeze as an additive!


That's the problem with UOA's by themselves - they only show the amounts of the elements and not the specific compounds which they may be a part of. So there's no way to tell where they're coming from.

However...if you've done a VOA on a particular oil first, then you have a baseline. If virgin Yamalube starts out with very little boron, then the 346ppm on that UOA is telling you something.


Hmmm...not sure if I should start to get nervous or not. Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't Blackstone compare my oil to all the Yamalube Synthetic 15w-50 samples they have on file to determine any irregularities? Specifically the 346ppm boron?The UOA also showed low Sodium and Potassium. Also before I sent my oil, I did bring my bike to the dealer and they couldn't find anything wrong. Wasn't overheating and they pressurized the engine to check for leaks.



Originally Posted by Mackelroy
Yeah that's very expensive oil, for what you get, atleast a Redline would come with a substanially better ad pack


Indeed, very expensive. I won't be running it again due to the price. When you say "better ad-pack"...what additives do you look for in a quality oil?

The more I research oil, I get the sense there is no concrete way to tell if a oil is of quality from the additives in an oil analysis. Seems like the minute someone praises an oil for having this much "special additive" someone else comes in and explains why it's irrelevant. Maybe I'm wrong tho lol

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted by soko


The more I research oil, I get the sense there is no concrete way to tell if a oil is of quality from the additives in an oil analysis. Seems like the minute someone praises an oil for having this much "special additive" someone else comes in and explains why it's irrelevant. Maybe I'm wrong tho lol


The more you research oil the more you realize any of it will meet or exceed your mile expectations... there is not one oil in the 300,000 mileage club... there are 30 40 50 grade oils... there are synthetic and mineral oils... the only difference is how much HP are wasting on oil drag???

 

[jeff78]

Originally Posted by soko

Hmmm...not sure if I should start to get nervous or not. Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't Blackstone compare my oil to all the Yamalube Synthetic 15w-50 samples they have on file to determine any irregularities? Specifically the 346ppm boron?

As I understand it, the 'Universal Averages' for a UOA are averages based on the results of other UOA's for the same motorcycle/engine, not oil. So your boron numbers are significantly higher than the average of other UOA's for the same bike they've done. All that means is that other R1 owners who did UOA's were using lower boron oils.

The 'Unit/Location averages' are the averages for UOA's from just your bike.


Quote
The UOA also showed low Sodium and Potassium. Also before I sent my oil, I did bring my bike to the dealer and they couldn't find anything wrong. Wasn't overheating and they pressurized the engine to check for leaks.

The UOA also reported no antifreeze contamination. Is there a reason for you to believe coolant getting into the oil? Are you actually losing coolant?

All things considered, it doesn't look there is any coolant contamination. The milkiness in the 44 mile old oil you changed out could have been caused by short tripping. A UOA on that oil would have shed some light.


Quote
The more I research oil, I get the sense there is no concrete way to tell if a oil is of quality from the additives in an oil analysis.

An oil analysis can't tell you which oil will cause less wear over the life of your engine, if that's what you mean.

But it can tell you if the oil is particularly bad. For example, if you have an oil analyzed and the report comes back with significant contamination. Or if you do a VOA and the oil comes back as not having the chemical composition of a motor oil (e.g. someone bought some Mobil 1 from Walmart, used the oil, refilled the bottles with canola and returned them and you bought them).

Don't lose too much sleep over oils. When you find one that feels good at the clutch and shifter, change it regularly and you'll be fine. Even better if it doesn't ding your wallet too badly.


Quote
Seems like the minute someone praises an oil for having this much "special additive" someone else comes in and explains why it's irrelevant.

Also, there are newer additives that don't show up on a standard oil analysis, because they don't test for every element or compound.

 

[Bonz]

So, if it is known there are newer additives, for example what would some of them be? Regardless if they show up on analysis, to say they exist means we must know what they are regardless of what the analysis shows.

 

[DuckRyder]

Originally Posted by jeff78
Originally Posted by soko

Hmmm...not sure if I should start to get nervous or not. Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't Blackstone compare my oil to all the Yamalube Synthetic 15w-50 samples they have on file to determine any irregularities? Specifically the 346ppm boron?


As I understand it, the 'Universal Averages' for a UOA are averages based on the results of other UOA's for the same motorcycle/engine, not oil. So your boron numbers are significantly higher than the average of other UOA's for the same bike they've done. All that means is that other R1 owners who did UOA's were using lower boron oils.



In theory that is correct, in practice you may need to ask Blackstone what is included in the UA, it may not be as specific as we would like. For instance the Honda 3.5L UA includes all Honda 3.5L so it includes C and J Series which are completely different engines, The Harley 103 UA numbers include both the "B" and non "B" variants (probably not a big deal there). I'm not sure how many 1000cc Yamaha engines there are, but it bears asking - in this case I'd probably ask if the UA includes SxS, watercraft, snowmobiles (I wouldn't think so, but who knows).

I'm not saying the UA isn't valuable, simply that one needs to understand where the numbers came from.

FWIW, in shared sump bikes I've found clutch feel to be by far the most tangible difference other than price.

 

[Mackelroy]

I can tell by the UOA , the oil is not contaminated and perfectly normal, the Boron is an oil additive , youy flash and viscosity is too good to be contaminated with coolant.

also the Boron is probably not in older formulations of the yamalube

 

[Bonz]

With lower zinc levels, a higher level of boron is becoming more common in oils. I've felt it is a fantastic anti-wear additive from general reading and this below I feel says it well.

From Pennrite site:

"Boron offers much greater protection than even Zinc by increasing the load carrying capacity of the oil by as much as 8 times in a 4 ball Load Test. It also showed a 12.5% decrease in scarring over a normal engine oil with a standard anti-wear additive pack and better than 50% less scarring than a base oil only 4 ball wear test. Apart from it's increased protection, boron does not increase emmision levels and is safe for catalysts."

 

[alarmguy]

Choose whatever oil you fancy, they all meet standards.

To me, I think the most important thing for you is to stick to a 50 weight oil being your in the southern part of the country.
So any 20/50 or 15/50 would be a good choice as far as I am concerned. Heck you could go for the standard automotive 15/50 Mobile 1 or any motorcycle specific 20/50 or a diesel/gasoline 15/50 semi such as Mystic JT8.

One thing for sure, you if you choose Rotella your stuck with a 40, would be ok if you lived up north maybe but I assume you ride in really hot weather/mostly warm weather.

 

[jeff78]

Originally Posted by Bonz
From Pennrite site:

"Boron offers much greater protection than even Zinc by increasing the load carrying capacity of the oil by as much as 8 times in a 4 ball Load Test. It also showed a 12.5% decrease in scarring over a normal engine oil with a standard anti-wear additive pack and better than 50% less scarring than a base oil only 4 ball wear test. Apart from it's increased protection, boron does not increase emmision levels and is safe for catalysts."



It should be noted that the 4-ball wear test is an EP (extreme pressure) test that is not part of any certification testing for engine oils, but is common for greases. Amsoil was (maybe still is) also notorious for emphasizing 4-ball wear test results to push their engine oils.

That said, you can find oils with a healthy dose of boron along with higher ZDDP levels. Valvoline synthetic motorcycle oil is one of them, VOA here:

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...thetic-motorcycle-oil-10w-40#Post4872151

 

[Bonz]

I don't see that oil available in the USA. Can you show me where Valvoline sells that particular one? I would be very interested in it. That UOA was from a couple years ago, many oils have cut back. Not trying to be contrary just trying to find that oil as I really like it!

I hear you on the four ball test, however Boron does a better job than zinc and zinc is exactly that, an extreme pressure additive.

 

[alarmguy]

All oils are good, no one in here can tell if one is better then the other, they all meet a standard.
With that said, if you want an oil with a healthy dose of Boron, then Harley Davidson Oils have it. I dont use it but do use the Mystic JT8 15/50 semi which is high in magnesium, phos and zinc, not so much Boron, you tend to find one or the other.

If you are a believer in the 4 ball wear test then I suggest you go here. I wont debate Rat as he is the ONLY one with a theory and proof to back it up and I will not respond to the posts that will result from this post trashing him because I dont really care what anyone has to say ...
I dont choose oil based on this, I choose any oil that meets the engine manufacturers specifications, then I would choose one over the other of equal cost if possible.
This is the only guy who actually posts a theory and tests, now replies to my post will trash the theory, yet they have nothing to show but words, no action. (kind of like when you think you have a hot date who isnt or she thinks that!)

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/

 

[jeff78]

Originally Posted by Bonz
I don't see that oil available in the USA. Can you show me where Valvoline sells that particular one?

I got mine at Walmart. A quick Google search shows Pep Boys and AutoZone also carrying it.

The pricing at Wallyworld fluctuates, but I'd consider it a good deal if it gets between $6-7 a quart.


Quote
That UOA was from a couple years ago, many oils have cut back. Not trying to be contrary just trying to find that oil as I really like it!

Formulas can certainly change, but this was from less than 2 years ago.
From the OA's that I've done with this oil and VR1, if anything the Valvoline spec sheets underestimate the amount of ZDDP.
But you're certainly welcome to buy some and run your own VOA's.

Quote
I hear you on the four ball test, however Boron does a better job than zinc and zinc is exactly that, an extreme pressure additive.

ZDDP is an antiwear additive, but it is not considered an EP additive.

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/31343/lubricant-additives-differences

 

[Bonz]

I did not know that zinc was not an extreme pressure additive. My understanding is pressure and heat bring it into play. My understanding of boron is it's more like moly in that it does a more general plating of the surfaces and is not as dependent upon heat and pressure, however still functions as an extreme pressure additive.

I guess I've read so much over the years that zinc is sacrificial under extreme temperature and/or pressure, that I'm still leaning towards it having an extreme pressure function as well.