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Re: 2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil [Re: Cdn17Sport6MT] #5348612 02/12/20 11:23 PM
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pleopard Offline OP
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The clutch seems to begin biting about 1.5 to 2” off the floor... that’s my estimate.

Re: 2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil [Re: pleopard] #5348641 02/13/20 12:09 AM
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I wonder... if the car were elevated off the ground, front wheels free to rotate... If the car is in first gear, fully depressed clutch... I wonder if the wheels would turn. Then, when the clutch is released, say, 1" off the floor... wonder if the wheels would turn? I wonder if there is a way to nail down, exactly, when the clutch actually starts to engage...

Others... mebe... weigh-in on determining when a clutch is NOT fully disengaging. How does a person determine this?


Mazda6 GX (Sport in the 'States), 6MT, 2017
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (Euro version), 1985
Honda Civic Si (EX 2 dr. in the 'States), A/T, 1997
Toyota Camry CE, 5MT, 1999
VW (Type2) Kombi, 4MT, 1979
Re: 2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil [Re: pleopard] #5348800 02/13/20 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by pleopard
The clutch seems to begin biting about 1.5 to 2” off the floor... that’s my estimate.

That seems OK.

Like I said earlier, let the car idle on flat ground and slowly engage the clutch.

You'll hear some rpm drop and the car creep.

If its just STARTING to engage at 2 " off the floor that's OK.

Back to te gear oil or even cable shifter adjustment.

I find it take about 5K miles for the trans to wear in before everything works super slick

And cold trannies rarely do


2019 VW Jetta S 6MT OCI#2 7378mi-MOTUL Specific VW508.00+VW Service Filter; '17 Subaru Crosstrek CVT OC#8 60864mi-Subaru Idemitsu 0W20 + SOA Filter
Re: 2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil [Re: pleopard] #5348811 02/13/20 09:14 AM
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AC1DD Offline
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Originally Posted by pleopard
If the disengage clearance is too small, why would the roughness go away when warm? That said, even when warm, it won’t shift into 1st from a stop approximately 1 in 30-50 stops. Maybe that’s related to the clutch engagement point?

I was at the dealership today to drive another Corolla Hatch XSE. It sat all night in -11C weather. It was notchy going into 2nd, but smooth notchy, like I expect, not rough and in some cases audibly rough notchy...

I asked them to change out the 75W90 Mobil1 GL-5 stuff they put in that only seemed to make problems slightly worse. The foreman’s comment: “the Asian oils aren’t that good compared to North American....”. They seem to love dissing their own products. Here’s the ironic thing. The Toyota LV 75W GL-4 manual transmission fluid is made in France, not Asia... he also tried to suggest the 75W90 is thinner than the original fluid (based on...get this...feel!).

Anyway, they didn’t have the fluid in stock, so they’re getting it in for tomorrow. I’m going to make sure they show me the bottles and I also want them to show me the 75W90 bottle so I can document it. When I hit 16,000km I’m going to request another change to flush out residual GL-5.

On another note, how is the engagement point adjusted if it hasn’t been mentioned already?


Wow horrible service shop. But not surprised since in North America finding a competent dealership is like winning the power ball lottery.

Now what you've described about the box in the rental car sounds like the typical cold weather result you might see in a properly functioning manual transmission model.


It's unbelievable that they don't have the proper product to service these cars. The shop manager is an idiot too. DEFINITELY if possible walk into the shop with the manager and WATCH them put in the correct fluid. Don't take no for an answer, if you need to ask the dealership owner to accompany you into the shop.

Last edited by AC1DD; 02/13/20 09:16 AM.
Re: 2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil [Re: AC1DD] #5349138 02/13/20 05:22 PM
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pleopard Offline OP
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Yeah, probably should have done that. The car is in the shop now. They’ll change the fluid back to the proper spec and let it sit overnight. The shop manager wants to drive it in the morning back to back with the other identical car.

They had to special order the LV 75W in from Vancouver. Apparently no Toyota dealers in Calgary stocked the stuff. $80/L!

Pardon the sideways images - uploading from my phone.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]


Last edited by pleopard; 02/13/20 05:23 PM.
Re: 2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil [Re: pleopard] #5349178 02/13/20 06:15 PM
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That is indeed pricey MTF!


Mazda6 GX (Sport in the 'States), 6MT, 2017
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (Euro version), 1985
Honda Civic Si (EX 2 dr. in the 'States), A/T, 1997
Toyota Camry CE, 5MT, 1999
VW (Type2) Kombi, 4MT, 1979
Re: 2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil [Re: pleopard] #5349320 02/13/20 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by pleopard
Yeah, probably should have done that. The car is in the shop now. They’ll change the fluid back to the proper spec and let it sit overnight. The shop manager wants to drive it in the morning back to back with the other identical car.





I can't wait to hear what this shop manager says when it's clear that your rental vehicle has a definite different in notchiness when cold. Please post back with his excuse.
If there is grittiness roughness during the slotting into gear process that's not normal.

Re: 2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil [Re: AC1DD] #5349365 02/13/20 09:25 PM
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This morning, -11C, the first few shifts from 1st to 2nd were the roughest I’ve felt - they were essentially gear-clashing shifts... [censored]... I’m not overly optimistic there going to solve anything tomorrow.

This is what they claimed to have put in the car on my second visit to try and resolve this.
[Linked Image]

Re: 2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil [Re: pleopard] #5349465 02/13/20 11:43 PM
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Yes, I can see that it is GL-5, MT-1. Not the correct stuff.

I Googled the Toyota-branded 75W - and although it appears on the labeling that there is no indication of GL-4 - the varied descriptions I found from the vendors out there all indicate GL-4. I would guess also that at that expensive a cost, that is a premium synthetic. I suspect it will improve matters. Do realize, however, that in many cases folks have to wait 500 miles to 1000 miles to actually, fully, have a change in feel occur in the gearbox. It takes a bit of time at temperature (operating temp) for the new fluid to displace the old.

Also, there are a number of other avenues to try out... particularly with different fluids. That Redline fluid that was mentioned above - might be the cat's bum... Also, I mentioned BG's Synchro Shift II (though a bit heavier by way of viscosity... not a lot heavier though).

I want to leave you also with the attached note ... sorry that the graphic is so small. It originates with VW... many years ago. In essence it says that the choice of a manual transmission / transaxle lubricant is a study in competing priorities. VW says that even though a given lubricant may not feel as good (vis a vis synchro action) - it actually may protect rolling element bearings and gear flanks better. What I say, then, is that maybe you do need to nurse this thing to some semblance of operating temp... knowing that you do have the best lubricant in there.

A final thought: I earlier-on said that buying even a brand-new 5MT or 6MT vehicle sometimes is a crap-shoot... in that they all feel a mite different from one another in terms of shift-feel, roughness, etc. This is not always apparent on the first test-drive... but slightly later on (like in my case). You may not really like it on principle... but you likely will find a way to deal with this in terms of how you drive a cold car in the worst of winter's low ambient days. Don't poo-poo the notion of a couple / three starts in 2nd gear... to be easier on your car, than allowing it to shift on a notchy basis when cold. A 'wee bit more clutch wear is peanuts by comparison to dealing with an internal-to-the-transmission issue, believe me. If you feel the notchiness in your hand (knowing that your car is a cable-shifted transaxle design...) and ALSO, you can hear it at times - you can be certain that not-nice-things are happening inside the 'box when it does this. Seek to minimize these occurrences with some minor compensations in your driving.

1 - Shift Feel vs Oil Quality - What VW Says.JPG
Last edited by Cdn17Sport6MT; 02/13/20 11:50 PM.

Mazda6 GX (Sport in the 'States), 6MT, 2017
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (Euro version), 1985
Honda Civic Si (EX 2 dr. in the 'States), A/T, 1997
Toyota Camry CE, 5MT, 1999
VW (Type2) Kombi, 4MT, 1979
Re: 2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil [Re: pleopard] #5349537 02/14/20 03:30 AM
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zeng Offline
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Originally Posted by pleopard
This morning, -11C, the first few shifts from 1st to 2nd were the roughest I’ve felt - they were essentially gear-clashing shifts... [censored]... I’m not overly optimistic there going to solve anything tomorrow.

This is what they claimed to have put in the car on my second visit to try and resolve this.
[Linked Image]

The Toyota 75W is a GL4 with a [email protected]*C of about 30 cSt or thereabout .

This Mobilube HD 75W is a GL5 with a [email protected]*C of about 92 cSt , a real 75W90 .

The foreman’s comment: “the Asian oils aren’t that good compared to North American....” is indeed 'valid', in the context of gear/bearing components protection typical of gear oil requirements .

But unfortunately your concern isn't on components protection , but smooth shift in particular in cold . Hence it's double whammy on you .

Re: 2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil [Re: zeng] #5349695 02/14/20 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by zeng
Originally Posted by pleopard
This morning, -11C, the first few shifts from 1st to 2nd were the roughest I’ve felt - they were essentially gear-clashing shifts... [censored]... I’m not overly optimistic there going to solve anything tomorrow.

This is what they claimed to have put in the car on my second visit to try and resolve this.
[Linked Image]

The Toyota 75W is a GL4 with a [email protected]*C of about 30 cSt or thereabout .

This Mobilube HD 75W is a GL5 with a [email protected]*C of about 92 cSt , a real 75W90 .

The foreman’s comment: “the Asian oils aren’t that good compared to North American....” is indeed 'valid', in the context of gear/bearing components protection typical of gear oil requirements .

But unfortunately your concern isn't on components protection , but smooth shift in particular in cold . Hence it's double whammy on you .


Except the shop foreman's comments are NOT correct in the context of this situation. Toyota didn't spec fluid that is going to deliberately cause issues with gear engagement on a
mass market car that is a significant part of their business,which the Corolla is around the world, and I don't even agree that asian oils aren't as good as US brand gear oils.

The shop showed negligence and gross incompetence when it installed a gear oil that isn't viable in any way for this application, not only that it could damage synchros as well.

The owner should still contact TM Canada by certified mail and open up a case on this issue. It should be documented for the future in case there is a serious failure just out of warranty, which I suspect there might be, since what he describes is NOT "normal" notchiness in cold weather. His rental car which is an identical transmission seems to be normal.

Last edited by AC1DD; 02/14/20 09:15 AM.
Re: 2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil [Re: pleopard] #5349727 02/14/20 09:51 AM
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At the price of the toyota stuff, Id be putting Pennzoil Syncromesh in there.

of a low viscosity gear oil

Don feel too bad, a Hyundai dealer killed my good working MT in a ald Sonata with a wrong gear oil,

then killed the WHOLE car incompetently repairing the transmission.

Absolute criminal morons! Hampton Hyundai In Portsmouth. Boo! Hiss!

It was under warranty.


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Re: 2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil [Re: pleopard] #5349780 02/14/20 10:51 AM
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ARCOgraphite's dealer experience is worth noting if you were contemplating making a warranty claim, asking for the 2nd gear synchro to be replaced: 1) few techs these days at the dealer level have much experience opening-up transmissions; most have experience changing out whole assemblies instead. This is triply-true when you speak of manual 'boxes. A competent tech would need a hydraulic press with arbor plates, bearing splitters, and a selection of jigs... the latter of which the dealer very likely will not/has not invested-in. 2) you have a factory assembled car... and all of the relative perfection that is gained by many times over the human assemblers having practiced on other such cars before assembling yours... plus it is also partways machine-assembled. Not so at the dealer. It simply WON'T go back together like it was in the first place, especially with time pressures the tech's face!

I'm saying here that the devil you know (and can compensate for) may be better than the devil you don't know... Pandora's Box.

One technique I use on some of my manual cars when cold - that does not involve added clutch slippage / starting in 2nd... is to start in 1st but to barely take it to any substantial revs in first before shifting SLOWLY but deliberately to 2nd... i.e. at barely above a walking pace. Now be careful you don't get slammed by the driver behind you 'cuz they were not expecting your forward progress to suddenly quit so soon and for your shift to be made so slowly. In those circumstances... you can see why starting in 2nd would be preferable. Just saying...

Good luck.

Last edited by Cdn17Sport6MT; 02/14/20 10:57 AM.

Mazda6 GX (Sport in the 'States), 6MT, 2017
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (Euro version), 1985
Honda Civic Si (EX 2 dr. in the 'States), A/T, 1997
Toyota Camry CE, 5MT, 1999
VW (Type2) Kombi, 4MT, 1979
Re: 2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil [Re: ARCOgraphite] #5349827 02/14/20 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
At the price of the toyota stuff, Id be putting Pennzoil Syncromesh in there.

or* a low viscosity gear oil



I have heard that GM's Synchromesh FM (friction modified) would be a slightly better choice for cold ambients due to more synthetic oil content.

* presuming you meant "or" rather than "of"...?

Last edited by Cdn17Sport6MT; 02/14/20 11:40 AM.

Mazda6 GX (Sport in the 'States), 6MT, 2017
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (Euro version), 1985
Honda Civic Si (EX 2 dr. in the 'States), A/T, 1997
Toyota Camry CE, 5MT, 1999
VW (Type2) Kombi, 4MT, 1979
Re: 2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil [Re: zeng] #5350003 02/14/20 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by pleopard
This morning, -11C, the first few shifts from 1st to 2nd were the roughest I’ve felt - they were essentially gear-clashing shifts. I’m not overly optimistic there going to solve anything tomorrow.

This is what they claimed to have put in the car on my second visit to try and resolve this...



If this is what they used it is no wonder it shifted terriible.

https://www.mobil.ca/en/industrial/lubricants/products/mobilube-hd-plus-mg-75w

This is a 75W90 according to the PDS and Definately not an LV MTF. An LV MTF has a 100C viscosity below 7.0cSt @100C.


Quote
Applications
Heavy-duty manual transmissions, axles, and final drives requiring API GL-5 and MT-1 level performance
On-highway light and heavy-duty trucks, busses, vans, and cars
Off-highway industries including: construction, mining, quarrying, and agriculture
Other heavy-duty industrial and automotive applications involving hypoid and other gears operating under conditions where high
speed/shock load, high speed/low torque, and/or low speed/high torque conditions prevail

Mobilube HD Plus gear lubricants are intended for initial fill, top-off, and refill of enclosed commercial gearing in manual or semiautomatic
transmissions where gear lubricants are recommended including drive axles and final drives
Not recommended for applications requiring API GL-4 Level performance
Not intended for transmissions for which engine oil or automatic transmission fluids are recommended
Specifications and Approvals
Mobilube™ HD Plus Page 1 of 3
14.02.2020
API GL-5 X X
API MT-1 X X

API GL-5 X
API MT-1 X
MIL-PRF-2105E X X
Mobilube HD Plus is recommended by Imperial Oil for use in applications requiring: MG 75W
Typical Properties
SAE Grade 75W
Viscosity, ASTM D 445
cSt @ 40ºC 92
cSt @ 100ºC 15.8



Last edited by MolaKule; 02/14/20 03:18 PM.

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