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Dexos 1 Gen 3 Info #5347763 02/12/20 02:00 AM
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Mad_Hatter Offline OP
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Don't know if any info on the next Dexos revision has been posted but here's an article link (too long to post) from last Dec. 2019, about the changes you'll see in the upcoming Dexos 1 Gen 3.

From what I read, GM wants to roll it out around August of this year (2020) and seems it'll mirror ILSAC GF-6 for the most part but with tighter requirements like a lower noack (12.5%) and deposits and wear on various engine/turbo components.

D1G3 Info
[Linked Image]

Re: Dexos 1 Gen 3 Info [Re: Mad_Hatter] #5347784 02/12/20 03:31 AM
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Gokhan Offline
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GM releases dexos1 Gen 3 details

Lubes'N'Greases
Lube Report Americas
DECEMBER 18, 2019
VOLUME 3 ISSUE 6

GM Releases Dexos1 Gen 3 Details
BY STEVE HAFFNER


A General Motors official unveiled details last week of the looming upgrade to the company’s passenger car motor oil specification. After previously saying it would release Dexos1 Gen 3 in January and begin commercial licensing during the second quarter, the company is considering revising the schedule to push back at least some of the timing and plans to announce a decision soon.

Speaking at the ICIS Pan American Base Oils & Lubricants Conference in Jersey City, New Jersey, GM Power Train Vehicle Fluids Technical Specialist Khaled Zreik said GM made significant changes to align with ILSAC GF-6, the North American auto industry’s specification scheduled for commercial launch in May. Gen 3 includes most GF-6 engine tests but also has additional requirements that could complicate work for oil marketers wanting to offer products that meet both specs.

Dexos is the most important original equipment manufacturer passenger car engine oil specification in North America, and Dexos1 Gen 3 is GM’s update to Dexos 1 Gen 2, which was launched in 2017. In October GM said it aimed to unveil the new spec in January, begin licensing during the second quarter and require all products promoted as meeting its spec to transition to Gen3 by Aug. 31 of next year.

Lubricant formulators had raised concerns about whether the industry’s testing infrastructure would allow lube marketers to obtain approvals within that timeframe. Zreik said GM heard them and is now making a revised schedule that will be announced soon.

The timing for GM’s new spec also concerns industry players for a second reason. Many lube marketers offer engine oils that meet both GM’s standard and the latest ILSAC spec. With GF-6 scheduled for commercial launch on May 1, many GF-6 and Gen 2 programs are already complete or near completion. Some additive companies and oil marketers have worried that changes to the Dexos standard could impact products already in the pipeline.

Zreik said that General Motors is not satisfied with the industry’s ability to keep up with technical challenges that fluids may need to address with new hardware. He confirmed that SAE 0W-20 will be GM’s viscosity grade of choice for the foreseeable future for internal combustion engines, which will coexist with battery electric vehicles. Internal combustion engines are trending smaller, while maintaining the same performance as larger previous generation engines. Fluids remain an integral part of GM’s drive to improve fuel economy and lower emissions to meet government standards and corporate goals.

Zreik said Dexos1, Gen 3 includes all the new GF-6 engine tests with the exception of Sequence IIIH. The latter is replaced by the GM oxidation and deposit test. GM’s test will be stricter, allowing viscosity to increase no more than 75 percent during the test.

The Sequence VH sludge test will also have significantly higher limits than ILSAC GF-6. Although the low speed pre-ignition sequence IX test is included, it is only “rate and report” for the GM specification. In addition to the GF-6 tests and its own oxidation and deposit test, GM will carry over many Gen 2 methods, including a test for turbocharger deposits at tighter limits.

GM tightened limits on the Gen 3 LSPI test compared to the limits for Gen 2. Gen3 also includes a new fuel efficiency test using a Chevrolet Silverado and a new bench wear test. Definition and requirements for the fuel economy test and wear test are still being finalized. Finally, the specification has eliminated most European tests with the exception of the M271 sludge test, which will also carry over.

In addition to engine tests, changes are being made to some key bench tests and rules for running programs, Zreik said. Notably, the Noack volatility limit will be changed from 13 percent to an average of 12.5 percent on three test runs. The sulfated ash limit will change from less than or equal to 1 percent to 0.9 percent.

Each of these can have a significant impacts on the formulation, changing the base stock mix – especially for the SAE 0W-20 – and potentially causing additive companies to modify the detergent inhibitor package to meet the sulfated ash requirement. GM noted that its specification reduces sulfated ash to protect the catalyst and lower particulate emissions. GM will retain or tighten base oil interchange, viscosity grade read-across or other rules and expects to grant fewer exceptions than it did for Gen 2 approvals.

Zreik said GM has also started to work with customers to update Dexos1 licenses and will add Gen 3 by addendum. Expected changes will include volume reporting requirements and potentially higher fees, although no public information is available on licensing and royalty fees. GM found that 48 percent of marketer labels contained errors that need to be corrected. Marketers who violate requirements can lose their license.


2020 Toyota Prius Prime XLE plug-in hybrid, 2ZR-FXE engine, ~ 4,000 mi
TGMO 0W-16 SN/RC Japan
OEM spin-on oil filter Japan
Re: Dexos 1 Gen 3 Info [Re: Mad_Hatter] #5347823 02/12/20 06:00 AM
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buster Offline
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Quote
Each of these can have a significant impacts on the formulation, changing the base stock mix – especially for the SAE 0W-20 – and potentially causing additive companies to modify the detergent inhibitor package to meet the sulfated ash requirement.


Mobil 1 has had a SA of .8 since 2012.


2019 Frontier Pro 4X - RGT 5w30
2019 Impreza Sport - OE fill
Re: Dexos 1 Gen 3 Info [Re: Mad_Hatter] #5347986 02/12/20 10:10 AM
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buddylpal Offline
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This is all very interesting. Many people have commented that the synthetics on sale now probably already meet GF-6. Well now reading about Dexos Gen 3 I’m glad I haven’t been stocking up on oil.


A couple GM's and a Hyundai.
Re: Dexos 1 Gen 3 Info [Re: Mad_Hatter] #5347994 02/12/20 10:16 AM
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buster Offline
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I think we're going to see more esters in formulations.


2019 Frontier Pro 4X - RGT 5w30
2019 Impreza Sport - OE fill
Re: Dexos 1 Gen 3 Info [Re: Mad_Hatter] #5348034 02/12/20 11:16 AM
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wemay Offline
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Interesting thread, thanks OP


2019 VW Passat Wolfsburg TSI
VW High Performance Genuine Engine Oil 0W-20
OEM


2013 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport 2.0T
Shell Rotella Gas Truck 5W-30
OEM
Re: Dexos 1 Gen 3 Info [Re: Mad_Hatter] #5348059 02/12/20 11:47 AM
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BLND1 Offline
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Ever think oil manufacturers just roll their eyes every time GM says “we aren’t happy with industry standards”?

A lot of this just sounds like making changes to make changes and increase their licensing share.

Re: Dexos 1 Gen 3 Info [Re: BLND1] #5348079 02/12/20 12:10 PM
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BucDan Offline
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Originally Posted by BLND1
Ever think oil manufacturers just roll their eyes every time GM says “we aren’t happy with industry standards”?

A lot of this just sounds like making changes to make changes and increase their licensing share.


Especially when their cars aren't stellar. One part of the company has goals to keep the quality of oil high, and going higher, yet the other part of the company can't make a car without running into problems or breaking down. Yet you have cars from Honda and Toyota that keep running on oil that don't meet Dexos standards and just break the mold of API SN. If anything the Dexos people should break away and become a part of the American Petroleum Institute. So you're putting really good oil in crap cars, what's the point?

I appreciate that they are pushing the standard higher like the euro manufacturers, but it's almost all bark no bite.

Last edited by BucDan; 02/12/20 12:12 PM.

2013 Audi S4 6MT - 45K miles
- OCI every 5K miles
- Motul X-cess 5w-40
- Mann OEM oil filter
Re: Dexos 1 Gen 3 Info [Re: BucDan] #5348085 02/12/20 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by BucDan
Originally Posted by BLND1
Ever think oil manufacturers just roll their eyes every time GM says “we aren’t happy with industry standards”?

A lot of this just sounds like making changes to make changes and increase their licensing share.


Especially when their cars aren't stellar. One part of the company has goals to keep the quality of oil high, and going higher, yet the other part of the company can't make a car without running into problems or breaking down. Yet you have cars from Honda and Toyota that keep running on oil that don't meet Dexos standards and just break the mold of API SN. If anything the Dexos people should break away and become a part of the American Petroleum Institute. So you're putting really good oil in crap cars, what's the point?

I appreciate that they are pushing the standard higher like the euro manufacturers, but it's almost all bark no bite.


I wholeheartedly agree with you. In a number of cases GM shares tech with other manufacturers that DONT require the Dexos cert.

It’s a power play for a manufacturer struggling to find an identity.

Last edited by BLND1; 02/12/20 12:18 PM.
Re: Dexos 1 Gen 3 Info [Re: Mad_Hatter] #5348100 02/12/20 12:35 PM
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I think GM should encourage other automakers to adopt dexos standards for oil. If anything, I can see Toyota, Honda and maybe VW and BMW jumping on board. The standards are tougher - and GM is still selling trucks and SUVs with downsized engines.

When GM created the Top Tier gas standard, Toyota and BMW jumped on board. You can't argue against better quality gas or oil.

Re: Dexos 1 Gen 3 Info [Re: Mad_Hatter] #5348173 02/12/20 01:51 PM
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GM doesn't charge licensing fees for top tier gas as far as I know. Yet.
Dexos makes for fine sets of specs. Certification, along with the associated fees, is reasonable. IMO charging licensing fees for each quart of oil produced is a scam. I wonder if the Government would allow it if the bailout didn't give them a dog in the fight.

Re: Dexos 1 Gen 3 Info [Re: wemay] #5348234 02/12/20 03:14 PM
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Mad_Hatter Offline OP
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Originally Posted by wemay
Interesting thread, thanks OP

You're welcome Sir..🤘

Re: Dexos 1 Gen 3 Info [Re: Mad_Hatter] #5348251 02/12/20 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by buddylpal
This is all very interesting. Many people have commented that the synthetics on sale now probably already meet GF-6. Well now reading about Dexos Gen 3 I’m glad I haven’t been stocking up on oil.

SOPUS says their PPPP line already satisfies GF-6 test requirements but they're very careful to phrase it properly so as to not get into trouble. And Dexos is a GM standard for GM vehicles and not an international standards org (multiple stakeholders involved v just GM) like ILSAC..so there's always gonna be some daylight between GM's Dexos and ILSAC's "GF".

Originally Posted by Gokhan
...

Tx Gokhan, 👍..it was late and I was too tired to C&P.

Last edited by Mad_Hatter; 02/12/20 03:36 PM.
Re: Dexos 1 Gen 3 Info [Re: Mad_Hatter] #5348253 02/12/20 03:34 PM
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loneryder Offline
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Let's see...build an engine that is hard to lubricate and then blame the oil companies. Oil companies are supposed to bail out the auto engineers??? Something doesn't seem right!

Re: Dexos 1 Gen 3 Info [Re: loneryder] #5348264 02/12/20 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by loneryder
Let's see...build an engine that is hard to lubricate and then blame the oil companies. Oil companies are supposed to bail out the auto engineers??? Something doesn't seem right!

Is the dog wagging the tail or the tail wagging the dog? I think it's the dog wagging the tail but either way they gotta work together or that turbo ain't gonna last/work right. 😉

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