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Re: Dreaded Ford 3.5L / 3.7L water pump - How to extend the life. [Re: rideahorse] #5346239 02/10/20 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by rideahorse
Its not a coolant issue. Its a thin oil issue. This syn oil does not lube the timing chains like a good 15w-40 HDEO oil will. Chains do not like thin syn oils. When the chains get stretched they put undo stress on the water pump bearings. Vibration and harmonics. Thin syn oil is dry and has no body to it to keep the chains from premature wearing. There is nothing wrong with the design. Just look at Europe and see that they spec a lot thicker oil for the same engines. The EPA is making the car manufacturers do this for the last bit of mileage and sacrificing engine life. My 08 3.5 Edge has 235,000 miles on it and just put the first water pump in it. $ 1,600 at Ford dealership and the timing chains are still good. Its had HDEO 15w-40 conventional oil in it since it was new.


Not sure I'm buying what you are selling..

you say 15w40 is the cure, but you had to put a waterpump in it.. and your chains arent stretched... so seems confusing/totally contradictory.


2019 Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk 2.0T
2020 Hyundai Elantra "Value Edition"
Re: Dreaded Ford 3.5L / 3.7L water pump - How to extend the life. [Re: Fordiesel69] #5346255 02/10/20 03:10 PM
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wdn Offline
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How are you telling a guy who lives directly on Lake Erie to be putting 15W40 tractor oil in his car engine, in February? That is completely nuts. The car is spec’ed for a 5W-20. OP is not having timing chain issues either he is asking about replacing the Ford coolant, to possibly extend its life, hence the cooling forum. Bearings and seals wear out pumps not the timing chain, it was just Ford’s dumb design to locate it so it’s major surgery to get at it. There is an owner class action lawsuit against for because it can cost thousands to replace a $200 pump.

Re: Dreaded Ford 3.5L / 3.7L water pump - How to extend the life. [Re: Fordiesel69] #5346294 02/10/20 03:44 PM
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I did this job on my 2009 Flex last May, it was done as a preemptive repair, there was no signs of coolant loss or signals of impending doom. This car had 206,000 kilometers at the time of the work.

As to other cooling system maintenance, I had the coolant changed at 137,000 kilometers - just because I felt it was time, done at the dealer because they had a special on at the time. The Flex has always had a religious attention to maintenance, so if the WP longevity is influenced by lack of oil changes, or coolant flushes, this would not be my situation.

For the 3.5 V6 normally aspirated, there is a passage way inside the engine casting behind the WP that directs any coolant seepage past the 1st O-ring to either a small weep hole that dumps above the alternator, and another 2nd weep hole that dumps into the intake manifold valley - back side of timing chain area. On my Flex, both these areas were dry and clean, no stains of green.

Regarding the original WP, on removal I think there was a slight residue of green in the passage way of the pump casting that leads to the alternator drip area, but I might be wrong, when the pump comes off there is some spillage, hard to say if this was fresh spill from removing the WP or residue of a very small seepage. The old WP seemed to have no play axially or radially, it told me that I might have waited another 50,000 kilometers or it could have gone in 20,000 ??? who knows.

In addition to the WP, I did the 3 chains, the crank sprocket, all chain guides,primary chain tensioner, crank seal, valve cover gaskets, thermostat, oil & filter, Ford Specialty Green Coolant and distilled water. All Ford parts. It took an honest 29 hours start to finish. I include the time it took me to plan the placement of the timing cover in a way that would not smear the special Ford RTV sealant that was applied to the timing case cover. That cover is BIG and not easy to manipulate without hitting critical surfaces. I did not remove any AC pressure lines, this would have given a bit more room, but I was able to bungee cord them away without problem.

I know I could have waited longer to do this work, but I had the time, the weather was great and I was ready for the task. YMMV. The Flex drives on today with about 222,000 KM and no leaks of oil or coolant.


Last edited by KGMtech; 02/10/20 03:46 PM. Reason: clarity

2017.5 Nissan Rogue SV FWD
2013 Nissan Maxima SV
2009 Ford Flex SEL FWD
1984 Yamaha XJ750RL
Re: Dreaded Ford 3.5L / 3.7L water pump - How to extend the life. [Re: wdn] #5346510 02/10/20 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by wdn
Bearings and seals wear out pumps not the timing chain, it was just Ford’s dumb design to locate it so it’s major surgery to get at it. There is an owner class action lawsuit against for because it can cost thousands to replace a $200 pump.


I hope they get some success, but really, the defense lawyers will point out most of these pumps provide service for a goodly amount of time. I would like to see what is considered a good long service in the eyes of the law. For the 2nd or subsequent owners I think the judge will tell the plaintiffs to pound sand.


laugh


If you want the job done right......do it yourself.
Re: Dreaded Ford 3.5L / 3.7L water pump - How to extend the life. [Re: Fordiesel69] #5346599 02/10/20 08:12 PM
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I like to look at the Flex, but jezus god what a mess.


05 Lexus GX470 175k
640:1 TCW-3
M1 0W40 XG-3614
Toyo Open Country H/T II

06 4Runner SR5 155k
640:1 TCW-3
M1 0W40 XG-3614
Falken Wildpeak AT3W
Re: Dreaded Ford 3.5L / 3.7L water pump - How to extend the life. [Re: Fordiesel69] #5346647 02/10/20 08:57 PM
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The lawsuit overs Ford Taurus 2008 - present. Ford Edge 2015 - present, Ford Flex 2009 - present. Present as in “Ford has still not addressed the defect in its current vehicles”.

Regardless the service life of the water pump, this replaceable, common engine part destroys the engine, before the end of the useful life of the engine. The lawsuit was filed not that long ago, late 2018.

Re: Dreaded Ford 3.5L / 3.7L water pump - How to extend the life. [Re: dblshock] #5346649 02/10/20 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by dblshock
I like to look at the Flex, but jezus god what a mess.


Yeap
Got a co-worker looking at a $1500 water pump right now !

I’m a huge Ford guy but if I owned one of these 3.5’s I’d sell or trade tomorrow !!

Re: Dreaded Ford 3.5L / 3.7L water pump - How to extend the life. [Re: wdn] #5346807 02/11/20 02:08 AM
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Originally Posted by wdn
How are you telling a guy who lives directly on Lake Erie to be putting 15W40 tractor oil in his car engine, in February? That is completely nuts. The car is spec’ed for a 5W-20. OP is not having timing chain issues either he is asking about replacing the Ford coolant, to possibly extend its life, hence the cooling forum. Bearings and seals wear out pumps not the timing chain, it was just Ford’s dumb design to locate it so it’s major surgery to get at it. There is an owner class action lawsuit against for because it can cost thousands to replace a $200 pump.


That's pretty nuts ! I wouldn't hesitate to put a full syn 5w-30 or 5w-40 in though.

It's absolutely true that this CAFE oil 0w-16 0w-20, 5w-20 is ONLY used in the USA and Canada for the most part, when you look at RoW and see the same engines used in
Northern Europe they usually spec 5w-30 or 5w-40 full syn oils.

I would NEVER use anything less than 5w-30 full synthetic oil in any current engine on offer US or RoW.

Last edited by AC1DD; 02/11/20 02:11 AM.
Re: Dreaded Ford 3.5L / 3.7L water pump - How to extend the life. [Re: AC1DD] #5347107 02/11/20 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by AC1DD

I would NEVER use anything less than 5w-30 full synthetic oil in any current engine on offer US or RoW.

FWIW, Honda was shipping out all their cars made in Japan with 0W-20 oil since the early 2000s. The Ford 3.5/3.7 never made it beyond the US/Canada/Mexico/Brazil, maybe to Japan for the Mazda CX-9. Pretty sure Ford validated the engine for 5W-20.

Re: Dreaded Ford 3.5L / 3.7L water pump - How to extend the life. [Re: nthach] #5347758 02/12/20 02:50 AM
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Originally Posted by nthach
Originally Posted by AC1DD

I would NEVER use anything less than 5w-30 full synthetic oil in any current engine on offer US or RoW.

FWIW, Honda was shipping out all their cars made in Japan with 0W-20 oil since the early 2000s. The Ford 3.5/3.7 never made it beyond the US/Canada/Mexico/Brazil, maybe to Japan for the Mazda CX-9. Pretty sure Ford validated the engine for 5W-20.



That maybe the case, but they won't tell you about the wear factor after a decade or so of normal use in the field. Why? Because there is probably more wear compared to the same exact engine using a 5w-30 or 5w-40 full synthetic of course.

Re: Dreaded Ford 3.5L / 3.7L water pump - How to extend the life. [Re: Fordiesel69] #5347879 02/12/20 08:54 AM
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The lawsuits alleges that the pump should last 150,000 miles and that this is supported by Ford’s own maintenance schedule that doesn’t list a water pump replacement in the first 150,000 miles.

Of course we know hardly any maintenance schedules list a water pump replacement. So there you have it, even the lawsuit does not insist on the water pump making it past 150,000 miles. laugh


If you want the job done right......do it yourself.
Re: Dreaded Ford 3.5L / 3.7L water pump - How to extend the life. [Re: Fordiesel69] #5348375 02/12/20 06:39 PM
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This stuff about 0W20 just being CAFE oil for US is not quite true though. For example on one of the newest engine designs on the market the Subaru FB20 direct injected 2.0, is spec’ed for 0W20 synthetic, in Japan, USA, Australia and in every other country.

Re: Dreaded Ford 3.5L / 3.7L water pump - How to extend the life. [Re: Snagglefoot] #5348387 02/12/20 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
The lawsuits alleges that the pump should last 150,000 miles and that this is supported by Ford’s own maintenance schedule that doesn’t list a water pump replacement in the first 150,000 miles.

Of course we know hardly any maintenance schedules list a water pump replacement. So there you have it, even the lawsuit does not insist on the water pump making it past 150,000 miles. laugh


As opposed to Ford who probably designs their average internal water pumps to last 60,100 miles.

Many maintenance schedules say inspect cooling system, hoses and connections every 30,000 miles, next to impossible on those Fords. The new Subarus for example don’t even change the coolant until 137,500.

Re: Dreaded Ford 3.5L / 3.7L water pump - How to extend the life. [Re: rideahorse] #5357812 02/23/20 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by rideahorse
Its not a coolant issue. Its a thin oil issue. This syn oil does not lube the timing chains like a good 15w-40 HDEO oil will. Chains do not like thin syn oils. When the chains get stretched they put undo stress on the water pump bearings. Vibration and harmonics. Thin syn oil is dry and has no body to it to keep the chains from premature wearing. There is nothing wrong with the design. Just look at Europe and see that they spec a lot thicker oil for the same engines. The EPA is making the car manufacturers do this for the last bit of mileage and sacrificing engine life. My 08 3.5 Edge has 235,000 miles on it and just put the first water pump in it. $ 1,600 at Ford dealership and the timing chains are still good. Its had HDEO 15w-40 conventional oil in it since it was new.



I smell major b.s. with this comment


2009 Toyota Camry LE

161,669 miles

Valvoline Maxlife Synthetic 5w20 Dexos 1 Gen 2 SN+
Fram tough guard 4386 filter
Re: Dreaded Ford 3.5L / 3.7L water pump - How to extend the life. [Re: Fordiesel69] #5371224 03/09/20 04:23 AM
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The 3.5 Ecoboost requires 5w30. Does the NA 3.5 require a 5w20?


03 Jeep WJ 4.0 208k
02 Volvo S60 2.4T 199k
97 Chevy Blazer 4.3 175k
04 Audi A4 3.0 210k

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